I'm standing next to her on the side of Highway 41 waiting for tow truck. The distributor drive is spinning so either the brass gear on the crankshaft went away or the steel drive gear, either way it means a case split. I'll tell you,if it's not one thing it's another. At least she's in the shade.
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Crank fire ignition. No case split.
i recognize that spot,,right down the road from BFE
Who built the engine Will?
How often does that sort of thing happen? I'm wondering if the distributor is seated all the way down on the case? Is it possible that the distributor isn't seated all the way down and now it's moved up enough to simply no longer engage the distributor drive gear?
The distributor should be snug down against the distributor timing clamp and the case.
(picture stolen from the interwebs)
Simple fixes first maaaan!
When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras. Hope its the easy fix
Yeah, it's seated. The crankshaft drive in the case is spinning freely
Troy, the long block was built by John at Powerhaus in Torrance
What Stan is referring to is; with a Crank-fired ignition, you do away with the old Distributor and go to a special crankshaft pulley that triggers a wholly different ignition system. The good news is that it can be installed without removing the engine OR SPLITTING THE CASE!
Tha bad news is that it's $580 bucks (but maybe they have a cheaper version if you drop by CB Performance and ask for the "I'm in deep Doo-Doo" discount).
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2094.htm
BTW: I'm willing to bet the donut I've been saving for Stan (which I bought around St. Patrick's day, so I don't know it it's green frosting or mold on it, now), that the drive pin on the bottom of the distributor shaft has sheared or fallen out (why, I don't know). If you pull the distributor straight out and look at the drive on the bottom, there is a cap with a tang on it, and the cap is surrounded with a spring (I've moved it aside in the photo). If the cap isn't there, use a long magnet and fish it out from the bottom of the disti drive tube in the case. Remove that spring and you can push the drive pin out using a 1/8" punch. You'll have to rotate the cap around to line up the sheared pin bits with each other so you can drive it out. Install a new drive pin, replace the spring and you're good to go. I don't remember if the drive pin is offset to coincide with timing, so I'll go check my Bosch 009 and let you know what's what.
OK, I went out and looked at my Spare 009. The end cap/drive is allowed to float back and forth on the drive pin mentioned above, with the circumferential spring holding everything gently together. With the disti out and the rotor pointing at the scribed #1 timing mark on the disti housing, the end cap/drive has the drive teeth offset about 1/8" towards the nose of the disti rotor (this is a loose relationship - just get it close as you can). The end cap/drive can go on two ways......Screw it up and the drive teeth will be on the other side of the disti shaft and your timing will be off by 180º with #1 on the disti pointing at #3 cylinder - not cool, so, DON'T SCREW THIS UP!
Good luck, Will - I hope this is the problem!
Oh no!!!
Will Hesch posted:Yeah, it's seated. The crankshaft drive in the case is spinning freely
Troy, the long block was built by John at Powerhaus in Torrance
Eww. So you've pulled the distributor and you can reach down in the distributor hole spin that little gear freely in both directions?
Buuuuuumer.
T
I'm pretty sure CB isn't going to be offering any discounts.
Will, I wish you would have just let Pat Downs build your engine from the beginning. You'd be driving your car now...
"So you've pulled the distributor and you can reach down in the distributor hole spin that little gear freely in both directions? "
There is a distributor drive shaft down in there with an offset-tanged top (to accept the disti drive end cap/drive teeth). There is also a spring sticking straight up out of the middle of the driveshaft. If you have a long-ish screw driver and get the slot on one side of the driveshaft, you can try rotating it to see if it's no longer mating with gear teeth on the crank.
On the bottom of that drive shaft is the actual drive gear (made of steel), which meshes with a corresponding drive gear (made of Bronze) on the crankshaft. If the teeth are ground off (usually on the Bronze side), it should have started running really weirdly just before it stopped. If, instead, it was running fine and then acted like you just turned off the ignition, I would suspect the Disti end cap drive pin. You still may have to get down in there to get the cap out if the drive pin let go - the end cap would simply spin on the drive shaft and never rotate the disti shaft.
Chinese brass gear strikes again. But, it could be the pinion that was the root cause. I'm sure it's from China also. Not trying to be a jerk Will but I did warn you. Sometimes saving a little money ends up costing allot more in the end.
You got brass throughout that engine. It's going to have to come completely apart and cleaned thorough. That brass is a pain to clean, the dog house oil cooler needs to be thrown away and replaced, you will never get all the brass out of it.
I have some OEM brass gears and pinioned if you need one. They are pricey but stuff like this is also pricey.
Hope your spirits are still intact, Will.
They're really the only parts that matter, if sometimes the hardest to fix.
I think I'd completely forget about this silly car for a while, and enjoy a few nice mornings completely away from it. The bits and the brass and the bronze will still be there when you get back to them.
But let them know you've got more important things to do and that you'll take care of them on your terms, and in your own time.
+1 to what Mitch said.
Will and All:
This is for everyone who is on this forum and then some. Its a sad day for your car and I am sure your not happy at all. When i purchased my car I first took it to a shop that was highly recommended and whom had built the engine. Turned out the quality of work was, well, sub par to say the least. What made it worse was my lack of knowledge of ONE: this site and TWO: better mechanics in my area. So I felt obligated.
The fortunate thing about people who come to this site to seek knowledge before buying one of these cars there are quality recommendations given to those whom choose to listen. All based on our experiences good and bad.
Owning these cars can be expensive, so to increase the ability to turn the key and enjoy a nice long drive with the least amount of problems I recommend to all who venture into this sport, spend a little more on quality so you spend less time on the side of the road broken down. OR " A penny saved is a dollar spent" so to speak. This all comes from my own experience as I to tried to save a buck or two and the only thing it bought me was frustration from breakdowns and doing something twice.
I hope you don't have to split that case Will, that's going to be expensive, and to clean it out will not an easy thing to do. I have heard from many others re PowerHaus I wouldn't be surprised if you found a piece of paper with a fortune on it if you do split the case, not the best quality stuff used in that shop. I would contact them right away to see about a remedy.. Is there a Warranty?
Mitch is right!! Step away for awhile, then go back and evaluate..
I will up Ted and go +3 to Mitch..
Tebs
Hey all, there's no brass gear left, the one on the crankshaft that spins the gear and shaft that both pumps gas and spins the distributor.
Jim Ansite and I pulled Whiteclouds guts this afternoon and tomorrow we're going to split her organs apart and find out really who's/what's to blame for the dilemma I find myself in.
I didn't "cheap-out" on this engine, as a matter of fact, I'm into it (at this point) for over $10K including lots of stuff I don't feel like I need to elaborate on.
I didn't use Pat because I chose John at Powerhaus, end of discussion, cost wasn't the factor.
Now that that's out of the way, allow me to elaborate on my friend: Jim Ansite
Jim is a brilliant air-cooled mechanic. The fact that the owner of the Golden State Warriors trusts Jim, insists that Jim alone build, maintain and tune his stable of Porsche racing and street cars, bespeaks the man in the strongest way possible.
Today, when Whitecloud arrived at Jims, after he made the earlier "side of the road call" and diagnosed the problem, she sidled in next to a red Carrera GTS mid-engine (4-cam), 5 speed race-car and next to that was an aluminum 550 racer, both trusted to JIm by different owners who recognize that 30 years of air-cooled experience have paid off in Jim's ability to diagnose and fix whatever ails these cars, including my plastic imposter. By the way, the Carrera below is also plastic.
I asked Jim how many times he's pulled and replaced motors wondering aloud if it was in the hundreds or thousands, fairly sure it was the latter. He replied: "Countless thousands." without a bit of pride, just honestly answering my question.
We'll have her back together in a week or so and she'll undoubtedly be better than new.
Thanks to all for your concern, Will
Bummer Will. I hope the builder will help you out on it. How many miles are on it now?
It sounds like Whitecloud is at a good shop and will be taken care of. I hope she is up and running soon!
You spent over $10k and have a engine that left you stranded with a wiped out Chinese brass gear. I would have built you a quality engine for $2k less including an exhaust. I said this before on this subject and I should have kept to my word, im done trying to talk sense to you. It's a waste of time.
That's a little harsh. The guy already got burnt bad on his first engine. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I spent $9k inc shipping on my CB 2110 minus Tiger's exhaust but I had a bunch of extras added on which cost a lot more. The engine arrived looking like a show piece and it has always ran great. No problems other than a couple of oil leaks which for some reason never showed up til it had about 100 miles on it. 3 out of 4 head nuts were leaking, I was able to fix them myself.
I'm gonna agree with FPCOPO-- hindsight is always 20/20.
I've never built with Pat, but his reputation speaks for itself. Pat is a valued member of the SOC, and has always been a stand-up guy. Will has also proven himself to b a good guy and a fine member of this board.
I'm at a bit of a loss why every central valley dude feels compelled to pile on and kick a guy while he's down. The man is stranded and every second poster says, "SEE! I TOLD you so!!!"?
I'd invite you all to draw a deep breath and go over to the "Classified" section to pile on some guy who's trying to sell his car.
In medicine, when we write a progress note, it is like the tip of the iceberg. That's to say, the physician writing the note know WAY more than he can ever articulate on the page (and that's the larger part of the iceberg below the surface) The same is true for this whole situation! I'm the last guy to beat anyone up, but there's more to the story.
If you call a guy and take up loads of their time getting advice, and the turn around and go somewhere else, these sorts of problems tend to arise.
That said, I hope Will's car is fixed -- and soon! These sorts of things do really take the fun out of it.
Anand
i spoke to Will countless times trying to help him with his engine selection. The straw that broke the camels back with me was him hiring another company to build his engine and without telling me, called repeatedly asking for guidance about what parts to use after he hired this company. Am I being harsh, yes I guess I am. It's out of frustration though, I'm not trying to be mean. AND, it's not a Central Valley thing. I knew this would happen and I tried to help.
I'm not perfect, not even close. But, I have been around for a long time. I know the parts builders are using in their engines. I know what's good and what's bad. OEM parts are getting harder and harder to find. Builders are using Chinese crank hardware, pretty scary and this is a perfect example.
I hope Will gets the engine he needs. Unfortunately, many of the parts will need to be replaced to get a quality engine.
Quick. Somebody post something for sale... Or bring up that shady SOB whos only built 2 cars in 3 years. Or... Something we can all get behind... gear ratios.
Everyone back to your dugouts. Dont make me call @Theron to lock this thread. Dont make me turn this car around... Don't make me bring up horm buttons.
TRP posted:Quick. Somebody post something for sale... Or bring up that shady SOB whos only built 2 cars in 3 years. Or... Something we can all get behind... gear ratios.
Everyone back to your dugouts. Dont make me call @Theron to lock this thread. Dont make me turn this car around... Don't make me bring up horm buttons.
Or five speeds! There, I said it.
Well, personally TRP....I happen to like 4 speed horn buttons......Especially Brass ones.........Bruce
Will, I hope you get back on the road soon.
Pat, I feel your frustration. I called you back in 2001 and took up about 20-30 minutes of your time, then purchased a motor elsewhere (Raby). For me it was a coast thing, if I lived out West, surely would have bought from you.
Over the years, I've bought tons of parts from CB as well as John at aircooled.net.
Thank you for all you do for this industry!
OK, so it wasn't the disti drive pin.
Does this mean I have to keep this green, moldy donut?
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:I'd invite you all to draw a deep breath and go over to the "Classified" section to pile on some guy who's trying to sell his car.
Piling on a guy who creates an account on here then creates an ad the same day that hypes a very average car for a very high price... Like a shark that smells blood in the water - I live for that!
Will - How about buying a long block from CB and put all of your externals on it? You will have peace of mind that the motor is solid. You will spend about the same rebuilding your old motor.
Al, 4000km
Gordon, I guess so...
I'm a hybrid dude. A mix of socal, central valley, and midwest. I'm not an I told you so kind of guy. I have only been on here since 2012 but I have been around the block a few times. I can say without a doubt that for a newbie it is very difficult to figure out the best avenue to take when it comes to something as costly as a new engine, engine repair, or transaxle modification. Everyone says they are the best and gives you convincing reasons why.
When you look for answers here on SOC you may get many varying opinions and suggestions. How do you filter all that? It finally comes down to making up your own mind. Perhaps in Will's case convenience played a part in his decision. And let's face it, the central valley is a $hithole, comes with a very bad reputation, and is not conveniently located if you are in socal. We all know that people brought up in the central valley are a little backwards anyway. Just look at me. I was just in Bakersfield this last weekend and what looked to be a toothless methhead in a hooptie cut me off and nearly caused an accident laughing all the way. I recall saying out loud to myself, "That is so central valley." On the side if his rusted out car was spray painted VW Repair and a phone number.
We live in a small world here in our SOC bubble. People that work on our cars are noticed. The good ones seem to rise to the top and are hailed while the bad ones eventually fail. Unfortunately for the newbie it takes time to filter out whos is good and who is bad and decisions are often made prior to receiving full disclosure. Perhaps, as a service to our members here, we should have an section with vendors in our local areas with a rating system and a way to post what our experiences have been with them. Perhaps the owners of these shops could be invited to moderate their own sections.
Well, there IS a "Vendor Section" as a forum category, all we have to do is use it more.
Given the choice, I would ALWAYS prefer to use builders/vendors who are close enough for me to visit during the process. Al Gallo did just that by finding a local engine builder when visiting a local car show. Turns out I had visited the guy back in my Dune Buggy days (a long time ago), and again in my very early Speedster days and the guy's still around, building engines. He seems as quality-anal as you would want him to be, and that's reassuring. You want it done right. But those guys are fast disappearing so we spend a LOT more time looking for someone else.
As you say, Rusty, it's not easy for those of us who have been around this stuff for a while to find good mechanical help - a lot of the good ones are gone and some of the newer guys are unknowns to us so a rating scale of some sort might help a lot for both us "oldies" and for the Newbies, as well
Interesting post. I take exception to most of what you said, but also acknowledge that you may be baiting those of us who reside here...
As for Will's decision, @Pat Downs was apparently qualified enough for Will to call him and ask for advice, but not good enough to build his motor because the central valley is a shithole? Your logic is faulty there. You then go on to say "we all know that people brought up in the central valley are a little backwards anyway." You sound a bit pretentious, Rusty.
Lots of nice folks here in the Central Valley. There is a lot of poverty which is regrettable. Very different from swanky Dana Point. Sorry that it offended you.
I have the exact same hybrid qualities as you Rusty, but I'd pull up a little short of calling the Central Valley a $hithole. Fresno has provided me with a VERY nice life, a wonderful wife, two great kids, a great job, great friends, a nice paid off home and I can drive across town in 15 minutes at any time of day.
only proving that there a$$holes of every stripe in just about every locale you might want to look at. Northern CA, Central CA, and even Mecca, aka: SoCali. Just sayin'
Ima get me some popcorn, sit back, and watch the California civil war get started. 
