356R incorporating tubes instead of VW pan... Pretty Impressive Car is up for bid on BaT now. Fabulous old school color
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Is that an actual 1962 VW VIN #? B0329232
When I raced bikes if you set it up with the arse-end in the air it was called it a "Stinkbug" set-up. On a bike that reduced trail (caster) and weighted the front wheel helping turn in and reducing wheelies (can we go faster, please). It would suck on a street bike and be way too nervous, but if you got everything right on the track...wow...
On a replica it reduces trail, too, and usually makes it wander around at high speed unless there's been caster added in the geometry. My guess is they've put rear tires on it that look awesome, but don't fit under the fenders, hence the lift. I'd also guess that it's the lift that separates...you from the road...if you get to enthusiatic. I really don't get putting a tube chassis on a replica and then doing swing axles...why? If you're going to that trouble just go IRS and enjoy.
Did I get enough boomer elipses in there?
Here is a bunch of pictures from the shop in Brazil
https://www.instagram.com/p356r/?hl=en
lots of under the front hood details , and a nice picture of the "tube" chassis
I was checking out the speedster on BaT, before moving on to check out a hardtop speedster, with, IMHO, has the best license plate.
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@JMM (Michael) posted:I really don't get putting a tube chassis on a replica and then doing swing axles...why? If you're going to that trouble just go IRS and enjoy.
To my knowledge, there was never an IRS Beetle (Fusca) made in Brazil, which produced and sold them for a lot longer than in the US. Brazil was very, very protectionist for a long time, with high tariffs on imports -- which is why VW built cars there rather than just importing them from elsewhere. Development centered on things for the Brazilian market (building an alcohol powered car, for example) rather than on things that were important to other markets (like IRS). I was in Brazil for 3 months in the early 80s, and Sao Paulo Fuscas/Beetles were everywhere and dirt cheap new (<$3000).
I would assume that the tube-frame Speedsters coming from Brazil use swing axles because they're still readily available, where an IRS setup would be imported and therefore subject to the onerous import duty.
@imperial posted:Here is a bunch of pictures from the shop in Brazil
https://www.instagram.com/p356r/?hl=en
lots of under the front hood details , and a nice picture of the "tube" chassis
I too looked over their Instagram pages and thought VMC, Beck and JPS need to step up and modernize their cars or P356R could be the premier builder
Beck's cars are already modernized. What are you talking about?
@DannyP posted:Beck's cars are already modernized. What are you talking about?
Agreed. New Becks are tube-framed, independent unequal-length control arm coil-over suspended (front AND rear) cars with huge leg room, trunks, and amazing build quality. They underwent a complete redesign a few years ago, and are all that and a bowl of chips. Carey doesn't pump them much, but they're astounding cars (and I'm a Vancouver IM owner).
I looked at P356R's Instagram. There’s nothing new or especially interesting there. I would imagine the cars have all the fit and finish Brazilian goods are known for. Nice pictures though.
@DannyP posted:Beck's cars are already modernized. What are you talking about?
I have toured many car factories - Tesla, GM, Ford, BMW, Porsche and Pagani. I see P356R have visions and innovation to improve their vehicles but keep the 356 styling. The current 3 are basically building the same car with slight fit and finishes separating them. IMHO
The difference between Horacio Pangani and the current decision makers at Ferrari is innovation and vision.
Dude -- the hole you're digging....
The 3 builders you mention could not be further apart in regards to what is under the skin. The only thing that UNITES them is the shape of the car and the quality of the finishes.
Go to Breman and get back to us.
@Stan Galat posted:Dude -- the hole you're digging....
The 3 builders you mention could not be further apart in regards to what is under the skin. The only thing that UNITES them is the shape of the car and the quality of the finishes.
Go to Breman and get back to us.
Dude - I'm not digging ANY hole... I am giving my opinion and what I've seen at car shows and people that own these cars, is that okay?
@Todd Dean posted:I have toured many car factories - Tesla, GM, Ford, BMW, Porsche and Pagani. I see P356R have visions and innovation to improve their vehicles but keep the 356 styling. The current 3 are basically building the same car with slight fit and finishes separating them. IMHO
The difference between Horacio Pangani and the current decision makers at Ferrari is innovation and vision.
Maybe do a little more research then. VMC makes very nicely fit and finished pan-based cars. JPS(if they are still making some) were pan-based and are maybe now a custom tube front frame with a VW torsion rear assembly welded in. Using a steering box and front beam.
The same as the P356R you are talking about. The forward-leaning stance just looks WRONG. And destroys handling, but that's another issue.
Becks are a completely DIFFERENT animal. Modern suspension, rack steering, mid or rear engine options. Subaru, VW, Porsche, and even other(Kia once) powerplants available. Body, frame, and paint all done in-house in Bremen, Indiana.
They've re-invested a TON back into their operation. Not exactly a run of the mill factory.
For the record, I don't own a Beck nor have I ever. I own a VMC Spyder, my second replica from them. My first was also a Spyder.
But I did stay in a HIE once, and will again. Mainstream and even boutique(Pagani) factories don't have anything in common with replica builders. Except Beck, which puts engineering, innovation, and choice in the hands of the customer.
@Todd Dean posted:Dude - I'm not digging ANY hole... I am giving my opinion and what I've seen at car shows and people that own these cars, is that okay?
So you're talking about factories you've been to but you haven't been to any replica factories? Hole dug.
Have you seen a brand new Beck, or just older ones? I've seen, ridden, driven, and looked over and under the new ones. Impressive.
@Todd Dean posted:Dude - I'm not digging ANY hole... I am giving my opinion and what I've seen at car shows and people that own these cars, is that okay?
Sure, opinions are just that though.
Mine is that if you think Beck, VMC, and JPS are all the same under the skin, you haven’t looked under the skin of very many cars… and have obviously never seen a Beck built in the last 3 or 4 years. There are no VW parts in the suspension (none at all) unless you want them to be there.
That is NOTHING like a pan-based car, and nothing like the Brazilian swing-axle car you think is challenging them as a premier builder. I have no dog in the hunt, but I’ve been to Breman twice, spent 4+ hours touring the facility each time, have seen what they are building, and have crawled all over a half-dozen completed cars. I’ve been in the hobby for 24 years, and commissioned cars from JPS and IM. The only thing they have in common is the shape. IM was the top of the heap for 30 years, doing things nobody else was doing. Beck is doing things IM never did.
I’m also not sure what you’re basing this observation on. Is it the BaT listing, or the Instagram account with 30 pictures and one or two shots of the frame?
If you’ve got more, I’d love to hear it. Otherwise, I'm highly skeptical.
@DannyP posted:Maybe do a little more research then. VMC makes very nicely fit and finished pan-based cars. JPS(if they are still making some) were pan-based and are maybe now a custom tube front frame with a VW torsion rear assembly welded in. Using a steering box and front beam.
The same as the P356R you are talking about. The forward-leaning stance just looks WRONG. And destroys handling, but that's another issue.
Becks are a completely DIFFERENT animal. Modern suspension, rack steering, mid or rear engine options. Subaru, VW, Porsche, and even other(Kia once) powerplants available. Body, frame, and paint all done in-house in Bremen, Indiana.
They've re-invested a TON back into their operation. Not exactly a run of the mill factory.
For the record, I don't own a Beck nor have I ever. I own a VMC Spyder, my second replica from them. My first was also a Spyder.
But I did stay in a HIE once, and will again. Mainstream and even boutique(Pagani) factories don't have anything in common with replica builders. Except Beck, which puts engineering, innovation, and choice in the hands of the customer.
I appreciate the information you provided. I believe the forward-leaning stance was engineered and tested on the race track so we will know in time if this is too aggressive for these cars. My point is if you don't innovate and have future vision you will loose out to a unknown competitor... Just ask Novell, Toys-R-Us, Kodak, Blockbuster, Pan Am and the list goes on and on
@Stan Galat posted:Sure, opinions are just that though.
Mine is that if you think Beck, VMC, and JPS are all the same under the skin, you haven’t looked under the skin of very many cars… and have obviously never seen a Beck built in the last 3 or 4 years. There are no VW parts in the suspension (none at all) unless you want them to be there.
That is NOTHING like a pan-based car, and nothing like the Brazilian swing-axle car you think is challenging them as a premier builder. I have no dog in the hunt, but I’ve been to Breman twice, spent 4+ hours touring the facility each time, have seen what they are building, and have crawled all over a half-dozen completed cars. I’ve been in the hobby for 24 years, and commissioned cars from JPS and IM. The only thing they have in common is the shape. IM was the top of the heap for 30 years, doing things nobody else was doing. Beck is doing things IM never did.
I’m also not sure what you’re basing this observation on. Is it the BaT listing, or the Instagram account with 30 pictures and one or two shots of the frame?
If you’ve got more, I’d love to hear it. Otherwise, I'm highly skeptical.
Who sells the most replicas in the US?
@Todd Dean posted:Who sells the most replicas in the US?
@Stan Galat posted:Sure, opinions are just that though.
Mine is that if you think Beck, VMC, and JPS are all the same under the skin, you haven’t looked under the skin of very many cars… and have obviously never seen a Beck built in the last 3 or 4 years. There are no VW parts in the suspension (none at all) unless you want them to be there.
That is NOTHING like a pan-based car, and nothing like the Brazilian swing-axle car you think is challenging them as a premier builder. I have no dog in the hunt, but I’ve been to Breman twice, spent 4+ hours touring the facility each time, have seen what they are building, and have crawled all over a half-dozen completed cars. I’ve been in the hobby for 24 years, and commissioned cars from JPS and IM. The only thing they have in common is the shape. IM was the top of the heap for 30 years, doing things nobody else was doing. Beck is doing things IM never did.
I’m also not sure what you’re basing this observation on. Is it the BaT listing, or the Instagram account with 30 pictures and one or two shots of the frame?
If you’ve got more, I’d love to hear it. Otherwise, I'm highly skeptical.
If the builders you speak of are cutting edge then why is the delivery of their products 14 to 18 months or longer?
@Todd Dean posted:If the builders you speak of are cutting edge then why is the delivery of their products 14 to 18 months or longer?
Because people want to buy them and are willing to wait?
Nobody is happy with the wait times (builders included), but everything about this takes more time than it did pre-Covid. Buyers in this market are willing to wait for a quality product at a fair price with exemplary service after the sale.
... and while we're on that topic, as a former JPS owner, please be aware that there's a wide delta between VMC and Beck vs JPS. JPS has nowhere near the commitment to excellence in their shop as there is in the others. VMC builds a beautiful pan-based Speedster, very traditional in approach and excellent in execution. Beck builds something else altogether -- a bespoke, tube-frame car with zero VW suspension pieces, unless you want them. The difference in handling and tunability is an order of magnitude.
@Stan Galat posted:Because people want to buy them and are willing to wait?
Nobody is happy with the wait times (builders included), but everything about this takes more time than it did pre-Covid. Buyers in this market are willing to wait for a quality product at a fair price with exemplary service after the sale.
... and while we're on that topic, as a former JPS owner, please be aware that there's a wide delta between VMC and Beck vs JPS. JPS has nowhere near the commitment to excellence in their shop as there is in the others. VMC builds a beautiful pan-based Speedster, very traditional in approach and excellent in execution. Beck builds something else altogether -- a bespoke, tube-frame car with zero VW suspension pieces, unless you want them. The difference in handling and tunability is an order of magnitude.
I admire those that are willing to wait but product to market is a key indicator of innovation. If you have product orders in the pipeline and say another Covid hit the country then your business strategy and forecasting for said orders will change accordingly and so will the clients willingness to wait. That's one of my thoughts seeing a Brazilian company building these cars (at a lower price) and using CAD software to modernize certain aspects of their cars. Coming out the tech world I want ALL American companies to expand, create, innovate, modernize and flourish beyond their owners wildest dreams.
@Todd Dean posted:I appreciate the information you provided. I believe the forward-leaning stance was engineered and tested on the race track so we will know in time if this is too aggressive for these cars. My point is if you don't innovate and have future vision you will loose out to a unknown competitor... Just ask Novell, Toys-R-Us, Kodak, Blockbuster, Pan Am and the list goes on and on
Where, when, and by whom? I'd love to see lap times and video.
That's just priceless. Raise a swing axle to improve handling? LOL!
You've got to be kidding.
I swear, somebody is funnin' us here...
@DannyP posted:Where, when, and by whom? I'd love to see lap times and video.
That's just priceless. Raise a swing axle to improve handling? LOL!
And this from a guy who'll spent a weeks work to shave a tenth of a second in his Formula V. I'd lean toward betting on his experience, but data is always good.
JPS classis body cars I believe are now built by Chamonix and are basically the first generation Beck Speedsters, whose frame was designed by Chuck Beck himself. That design dates back to the very early 2000s. I should know since I had a 2006 Beck for 12 years. Wonderful car, but the new ones (yes I've been in one) are FAR superior. All of those cars are swing axle, while the new ones are coil-over fully independent. Since the earlier design has the front suspension welded to the frame, raising the rear has the unfortunate side effect of decreasing caster to the point of instability. I experienced that for myself.
All that said, the underbody shot of the P356R looks different from the Beck gen 1 (and Chamonix) chassis and more like a shortened pan. Having spent quite a bit of time under gen 1 and gen 2 Becks, I can tell the differences.
Tom, you may be well intentioned, but you sound a bit like you're marketing the P356R product. It may well be a good product and we welcome newcomers, but the folks on here know these cars - and their good and bad points - pretty well.
Full disclosure: I don't work for Beck but I do write their owners manuals and have owned a gen 1 Speedster and a mid-engine Beck Super Coupe (356C style). I helped assemble a gen 2 Speedster. So yeah, I'm a bit biased myself.
@Stan Galat you are correct, Brazil never got IRS for the aircooleds. We always considered VW of Brazil to be the last czar on the train when it came to tooling and "hand me downs" for their new products and the Fusca was discontinued before the IRS car arrived...
As I read this post I was carefully wording my reply in my head, but then saw a lot of the incorrect information addressed by members already, and as I read on it became even more clear that the OP has no clue what they are talking about... so I'll just move on and go back to my 3 year backlog... which is a sign of an antiquated product and not of an extreme demand for a highly engineered and track tested product... ;-)
BTW, @DannyP when Mike stops by he can help you raise the rear of your Vee so you can be the fastest out there. Man I wish I had known this in the past, maybe I wouldn't have spent so much time and money designing suspension with Chuck... hindsight and all.
@Todd Dean posted:My point is if you don't innovate and have future vision you will loose out to a unknown competitor... Just ask Novell, Toys-R-Us, Kodak, Blockbuster, Pan Am and the list goes on and on
Innovation is a big word, cheapened by incremental changes to improve something without changing it very much.
I'm curious where the innovation and "vision for the future" is on the Brazilian car.
We've already discussed that it's a swing axle, and I offered what I think is the reason for it (cheap/easy parts availability in Brazil). It's certainly not better than even VW IRS (which VW in Germany went to 55 years ago) and an order of magnitude more crude than a coil-over independent A-arm setup (as on the new Becks).
If you're going to have a VW beam, the way it's mounted and carried is the key to making it better. My IM mounts as far out on the beam as possible. This Brazilian car uses stock (narrow) beam mounting points. That makes it exactly the same as any other pan-based car, even if you aren't using the Napoleon's hat. It's still got worm-gear steering, even though there's a good rack and pinion available (from a VW Polo) if one wants it. A Beck OTOH, is (again) a purpose-built independent coil-over suspension with A-arms. IM was using early 911 front suspensions for 30 years, if an owner was willing to pay for it.
I like the trunk and engine treatment in the Brazilian car, but it's more retro than innovative. It's not a Subaru. It's a T1 in a pretty dress. Again, I don't care, but IM was successfully putting Porsche 6 cylinders with extended wheelbases in cars 30 years ago.
I'm not sure why this point is being pushed so hard. Both VMC and Beck have expanded their facilities and stepped up their game enormously in the last 5 years. Becks covers an entire corner of a small Indiana town (both sides of two streets).
@Todd Dean posted:That's one of my thoughts seeing a Brazilian company building these cars (at a lower price) and using CAD software to modernize certain aspects of their cars. Coming out the tech world I want ALL American companies to expand, create, innovate, modernize and flourish beyond their owners wildest dreams.
You keep talking about this car and CAD. I'm not sure why you are trying to tie the tech world to a car that is cheaper because it is made in Brazil. Brazil is by no means a leader in design or manufacturing. Brazil has one advantage over the US for manufacturing -- it has cheaper labor and materials than the US. That's the only reason the car is less expensive. There's no CAD anything on this.
To a lot of us, it looks very much like you have a financial interest here. If you do, that's super-cool! I've sorta' wanted to participate on the supply side of this hobby for years. But if that's the case, please say so. If you continue to post as if you're just a guy with no stake (when you in fact DO have a stake), that's a different matter altogether.
Please clarify.
@DannyP posted:Where, when, and by whom? I'd love to see lap times and video.
That's just priceless. Raise a swing axle to improve handling? LOL!
You've got to be kidding.
I swear, somebody is funnin' us here...
First of all I think your previous comments are rude and condescending... I was under the impression that this forum is a share of ideas, opinions and knowledge base information - I guess not the way you reply.
So you would like to see the lap times and video... Are you a mechanical engineer or current or former race employee? Do you really think these replicas are designed for race tracks? If so, their frame, engine, gearbox and weight dimensions would need to be altered to suit the race track. These cars are created and built for cruzin up and down PCH, Miami's A1A and mountain roadways. May James Dean rest in peace
If a builder wants to reconfigure their cars isn't that their choice? If a builder is trying to experiment with different parts, dimension or ratios is that okay with you? Btw, if you know so much about cornering and racing why wouldn't you offer yourself as a consultant or freelance to one of the three US builders... I'm sure they would love to have you on board within their company
I have taken time to read past threads of some other contributors on this forum and it seems some were way off base in there writing... Oh well that's life.
Lastly, If you or anyone else disagree with another contributor, mentor them, don't belittle them to show others how brilliant you are
@Stan Galat posted:Innovation is a big word, cheapened by incremental changes to improve something without changing it very much.
I'm curious where the innovation and "vision for the future" is on the Brazilian car.
We've already discussed that it's a swing axle, and I offered what I think is the reason for it (cheap/easy parts availability in Brazil). It's certainly not better than even VW IRS (which VW in Germany went to 55 years ago) and an order of magnitude more crude than a coil-over independent A-arm setup (as on the new Becks).
If you're going to have a VW beam, the way it's mounted and carried is the key to making it better. My IM mounts as far out on the beam as possible. This Brazilian car uses stock (narrow) beam mounting points. That makes it exactly the same as any other pan-based car, even if you aren't using the Napoleon's hat. It's still got worm-gear steering, even though there's a good rack and pinion available (from a VW Polo) if one wants it. A Beck OTOH, is (again) a purpose-built independent coil-over suspension with A-arms. IM was using early 911 front suspensions for 30 years, if an owner was willing to pay for it.
I like the trunk and engine treatment in the Brazilian car, but it's more retro than innovative. It's not a Subaru. It's a T1 in a pretty dress. Again, I don't care, but IM was successfully putting Porsche 6 cylinders with extended wheelbases in cars 30 years ago.
I'm not sure why this point is being pushed so hard. Both VMC and Beck have expanded their facilities and stepped up their game enormously in the last 5 years. Becks covers an entire corner of a small Indiana town (both sides of two streets).
You keep talking about this car and CAD. I'm not sure why you are trying to tie the tech world to a car that is cheaper because it is made in Brazil. Brazil is by no means a leader in design or manufacturing. Brazil has one advantage over the US for manufacturing -- it has cheaper labor and materials than the US. That's the only reason the car is less expensive. There's no CAD anything on this.
To a lot of us, it looks very much like you have a financial interest here. If you do, that's super-cool! I've sorta' wanted to participate on the supply side of this hobby for years. But if that's the case, please say so. If you continue to post as if you're just a guy with no stake (when you in fact DO have a stake), that's a different matter altogether.
Please clarify.
I can't but help smile when I read people discrediting others from their place of origin. Character assassination of someone from where they are or come from is really short sided.
I don't have financial stake in R356 or any coach building companies...
I do come from a tech background (28 yrs. in Silicon Valley)... I believe technology drives innovation and better quality of life. I am also old enough to remember people criticizing Japanese cars when they arrived in the US. As well as Korean cars 20 years ago as pieces of sXXt and a joke. Sales enables refinement and anyone willing to risk their time and money should be admired not criticized because where they come from.
In closing - You all have your opinions and I have mine. Time is a great reset in people that are sure they are right vs those that wait, study and review the work of others
@Todd Dean posted:First of all I think your previous comments are rude and condescending... I was under the impression that this forum is a share of ideas, opinions and knowledge base information - I guess not the way you reply.
So you would like to see the lap times and video... Are you a mechanical engineer or current or former race employee? Do you really think these replicas are designed for race tracks? If so, their frame, engine, gearbox and weight dimensions would need to be altered to suit the race track. These cars are created and built for cruzin up and down PCH, Miami's A1A and mountain roadways. May James Dean rest in peace
If a builder wants to reconfigure their cars isn't that their choice? If a builder is trying to experiment with different parts, dimension or ratios is that okay with you? Btw, if you know so much about cornering and racing why wouldn't you offer yourself as a consultant or freelance to one of the three US builders... I'm sure they would love to have you on board within their company
I have taken time to read past threads of some other contributors on this forum and it seems some were way off base in there writing... Oh well that's life.
Lastly, If you or anyone else disagree with another contributor, mentor them, don't belittle them to show others how brilliant you are
Ok. Agreed, I am not the most user-friendly person. I now know what George Brown felt like.
I've spent a good portion of my life with aircooled cars. Got my first Spyder 22 years ago, and have logged well over 40,000 miles driving Spyders.
Greg from VMC and Carey from Beck have both referred clients to me for work on their cars, I am on the east coast. Am I an engineer? Not by degree, but maybe by degree in life. I personally don't see where working for someone else(as a race employee) matters. So, I guess I do offer myself as a consultant to the two biggest replica Speedster/Spyder builders in the US. Since I am quite enjoying my retirement, no, I'd rather not go back to work.
I do campaign a Formula Vee here in the Northeast. I'm in my second year of racing at 60 years old. I am chief fabricator, adjuster, tuner, and driver. I'm currently third in points for FVR(FV radial tire) with half the season to go. I have tracked my 550 in HPDE events, among other cars. I have been autocrossing for 15 years. The 550 and the FV are both swing axle cars, so I may have some experience there.
My VMC 550 from 2016 may not be the most period-correct or perfect, but it is probably the best all-round Spyder out there. The acceleration, ride, handling, and braking are both assuring and predictable. The car does exactly what is asked of it. It is IMHO "of a piece", feeling both crafted and cohesive. Plus, it goes and stops like the dickens! Ask anyone on here who has driven or ridden in it.
Anyway, Todd, good luck with whatever you're trying to accomplish.
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As an outside observer on this one………I’m unclear on what the original intent of the beginning of this string was/is. Was it to draw attention to a listing on BAT or to stir a pot out of boredom?
@Todd Dean posted:Lastly, If you or anyone else disagree with another contributor, mentor them, don't belittle them to show others how brilliant you are
I think the mentoring you are asking for (and frankly, need) is already happening from some really knowledgeable on this thread but you're not a quick study. And it's detailed mentoring where folks are taking quite a bit of time to educate you.
The point is that the innovations that you are urging US manufacturers to make has already been done (primarily at Beck) and is ongoing, far ahead of anything currently being done in elsewhere. The "Toys-R-Us, Kodak, Blockbuster" you referenced (but forgot Beta tapes), looks to currently reside in Brazil.
Just my opinion.
And I think the term you were looking for is short sighted, not "short sided".
Cheers.
@NeenahSpeedster posted:As an outside observer on this one………I’m unclear on what the original intent of the beginning of this string was/is. Was it to draw attention to a listing on BAT or to stir a pot out of boredom?
It was to draw attention to the BaT listing and morphed into.... Well as you can see
@Todd Dean is that your listing? It seems odd to be as, what I perceive, defensive. I’ve never had a bad experience with the group here. People have been very helpful and encouraging.
@WNGD posted:I think the mentoring you are asking for (and frankly, need) is already happening from some really knowledgeable on this thread but you're not a quick study. And it's detailed mentoring where folks are taking quite a bit of time to educate you.
The point is that the innovations that you are urging US manufacturers to make has already been done (primarily at Beck) and is ongoing, far ahead of anything currently being done in elsewhere. The "Toys-R-Us, Kodak, Blockbuster" you referenced (but forgot Beta tapes), looks to currently reside in Brazil.
Just my opinion.
And I think the term you were looking for is short sighted, not "short sided".
Cheers.
Gee thanks Wally for the vote of confidence in my intelligence and analytical thought process. I don't claim to be a know-it-all when it comes to these cars but I do know one thing... I own a sweet superwide body built by VS and it's a joy to cruise the boulevard, mountain roads and on the beach
Now back to your unsolicited personal attack - those that need to express to others how much they know, really carry a false flag. If someone has the skills and mindset to share their information to others in a meaningful way then the mission is accomplished. Those that pound the keyboard and brag really do a disservice to the great mentors of life
I asked a question and still waiting for an answer - Why does it take 12 to 18 months to receive their cars? If the sales pipeline is full, profit margin is met and the balance sheet shows growth shouldn't the builders hire temp workers for 12 month or longer to expedite the cars. I'm thinking that 5 is better than 2 and 12 is better than 6.
A little insight about beta tapes vs VHS tapes - The **** industry preferred VHS over beta and that's how we ended up there.
@DannyP posted:Ok. Agreed, I am not the most user-friendly person.
You're a most loyal friend, Danny -- and a wealth of information and experience. If a guy can't bite through a small bit of crust to get to the gooey goodness inside, he's missing one of the best aspects of this site and of life in general.
@Todd Dean posted:I asked a question and still waiting for an answer - Why does it take 12 to 18 months to receive their cars? If the sales pipeline is full, profit margin is met and the balance sheet shows growth shouldn't the builders hire temp workers for 12 month or longer to expedite the cars. I'm thinking that 5 is better than 2 and 12 is better than 6.
There are dozens of potential reasons, perhaps the manufacturers know their decision rationale better than you or I?
Could be as simple as they are constrained by the current building size, financial constraints, have no desire to get bigger for the sake of getting bigger, don't want to deal with more employees, especially temps or worry about the impact on quality control. I trust they know their business better than I do. Waiting lists only ballooned during COVID, perhaps they are in the process of expanding, who knows.
What you're not addressing is the assertion that Beck in particular, is already light years ahead in anything being offered out of Brazil. And invested tons of money in doing so.
Please post a pic of your Superwide, they are my favorite Speedster body style. Not a popular opinion here but somehow I survive by not being so sensitive to minor criticism....
There are opinions, and then there are facts.
We all have the right to our opinions, but they don't mean much if they aren't anchored in facts.
The P356R vehicle, while perhaps aesthetically pleasing, is not superior in it's engineering to a current generation Special Edition Speedster. That is fact.
The technology in the suspension, and frame is old, not new. Fact.
The balance of the car, drive train and components are pretty standard for the hobby. Fact.
The setup in the rear suspension is not innovative, particularly safe, or true to an original in terms of ride height. Fact.
I respect your 28 years in Silicon Valley, but that, by itself, doesn't hold much stead in this arena. Nor does having toured some auto manufacturing facilities. Fact.
I assume you don't have the years of hands-on experience in building, innovating or repairing these specific cars. If you have, please say so. Is that a fact?
Many of the people responding to your posts have decades of experience in doing just those things. Fact.
You are certainly welcome to your opinions, but they aren't necessarily factual.
Good luck.
@Todd Dean posted:I asked a question and still waiting for an answer - Why does it take 12 to 18 months to receive their cars? If the sales pipeline is full, profit margin is met and the balance sheet shows growth shouldn't the builders hire temp workers for 12 month or longer to expedite the cars. I'm thinking that 5 is better than 2 and 12 is better than 6.
If it were only that simple... Hand building a car, and I mean making every little part from scratch (as we do) is a lot more involved than hiring temporary workers. Lamination takes skill, welding takes skill (and for us accreditation) , body work takes skill, upholstery takes skill, mechanical assembly takes skill (and for us accreditation). We currently have 23 highly skilled individuals here full time, and we build roughly 50 cars per year. That is a full time gig for all of us, and takes everyone working efficiently and busting their a$$es 5-6 days a week. Add in a handful of VERY custom builds, which I often times do, and that takes even more time... At present we have roughly 150 cars sold, so the waitlist math is simple, and we're quoting roughly 36 months deposit to delivery. Fortunately we have 150 ppl willing to wait that time and things haven't slowed down from this mania since 2020. We have expanded and improved our facilities by over 10k ft2 over the last 2 years and added more positions and trained a few new individuals, but it is a long and slow process, and quite frankly I am not impressed with the majority of the "up and coming" potentials. It seems like working with your hands is becoming a lost art for many.
The above doesn't even begin to address the issue of parts supply, parts modification, parts testing (that is required with nearly every part these days), and parts inconsistency. All of the aforementioned adds a great deal to the labor time and cost to be able to ship a top quality product. Then you get into customer support, parts support, parts manufacturing, etc, etc...
As for your previous comments on "stepping up their game" First off, you didn't look at my instagram as stated, because I don't have an instagram... I don't do social media besides a small private FB group for owners and I almost never post build related content. I don't have the time, nor the interest, and I don't need the sales. Others have already commented in my defense and I don't care to spend a lot more time on it, but you won't find a more engineered and tested Speedster replica on the market than mine, period, and we continue to grow and develop every single year. That said, my old 3" round tube chassis, which was engineered by Chuck (Beck) in the mid 1990s is more advanced than the BAT link. My current chassis isn't even in the same conversation as the BAT car. I won't bother to comment about the dozen or more issues I see with the BAT car, not my place nor my intent, and selfishly I also don't feel the need to educate other builders on what they are doing wrong, figure it out on your own, I did.
Finally, you ask for mentorship in a disagreement, so I encourage you to reread the above posts without any inflection of the posters perceived attitude. Several of the most knowledgable people in this industry/hobby have stated facts and although they didn't sugar coat it, the mentorship is there. It seems like maybe you didn't want your opinion questioned or were unwilling to listen to the facts, I'm not sure. Just my $0.02
I've spent more time on this than I cared to, so I'm out... good luck with the auction and whatever future endeavors are involved with it... hopefully you can figure out this site as it can be an amazing resource.
In the 2nd post on this thread, I asked about the VIN #, which doesn't appear to me to be a genuine 62 VW VIN #. Is it? BAT appears to believe it is. WTF?
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@Todd Dean posted:Gee thanks Wally for the vote of confidence in my intelligence and analytical thought process. I don't claim to be a know-it-all when it comes to these cars but I do know one thing... I own a sweet superwide body built by VS and it's a joy to cruise the boulevard, mountain roads and on the beach
Now back to your unsolicited personal attack - those that need to express to others how much they know, really carry a false flag. If someone has the skills and mindset to share their information to others in a meaningful way then the mission is accomplished. Those that pound the keyboard and brag really do a disservice to the great mentors of life
I asked a question and still waiting for an answer - Why does it take 12 to 18 months to receive their cars? If the sales pipeline is full, profit margin is met and the balance sheet shows growth shouldn't the builders hire temp workers for 12 month or longer to expedite the cars. I'm thinking that 5 is better than 2 and 12 is better than 6.
A little insight about beta tapes vs VHS tapes - The **** industry preferred VHS over beta and that's how we ended up there.
Why don't you start a company that can churn out top quality 356 recreations faster than Special Edition or Vintage? Your question implies that you believe that there is a better, faster way?
Go ahead and do it.