Porsche 356 Speedster Replica by P356R

@WNGD posted:

There are dozens of potential reasons, perhaps the manufacturers know their decision rationale better than you or I?

Could be as simple as they are constrained by the current building size, financial constraints, have no desire to get bigger for the sake of getting bigger, don't want to deal with more employees, especially temps or worry about the impact on quality control. I trust they know their business better than I do. Waiting lists only ballooned during COVID, perhaps they are in the process of expanding, who knows.

What you're not addressing is the assertion that Beck in particular, is already light years ahead in anything being offered out of Brazil. And invested tons of money in doing so.

Please post a pic of your Superwide, they are my favorite Speedster body style. Not a popular opinion here but somehow I survive by not being so sensitive to minor criticism....

I am not pro or con to any builder of these cars. That said, I do understand Americans want things now, right now... That's why soooo many Americans carry multiple charge cards. I believe if the current builders don't manufacture cars sooner it could lead to new builders. I read enough that Beck is the favorite in this forum but I am still wondering why up to 18 months... Just thinking out loud

@Troy Sloan posted:

In the 2nd post on this thread, I asked about the VIN #, which doesn't appear to me to be a genuine 62 VW VIN #.  Is it?  BAT appears to believe it is. WTF?

There also isn't enough VW on this car for it to legally have a VW VIN, which is another "can of worms" that hasn't been crossed yet.

@chines1 posted:

If it were only that simple...  Hand building a car, and I mean making every little part from scratch (as we do) is a lot more involved than hiring temporary workers.  Lamination takes skill, welding takes skill (and for us accreditation) , body work takes skill, upholstery takes skill, mechanical assembly takes skill (and for us accreditation).  We currently have 23 highly skilled individuals here full time, and we build roughly 50 cars per year.  That is a full time gig for all of us, and takes everyone working efficiently and busting their a$$es 5-6 days a week.  Add in a handful of VERY custom builds, which I often times do, and that takes even more time...  At present we have roughly 150 cars sold, so the waitlist math is simple, and we're quoting roughly 36 months deposit to delivery.  Fortunately we have 150 ppl willing to wait that time and things haven't slowed down from this mania since 2020.  We have expanded and improved our facilities by over 10k ft2 over the last 2 years and added more positions and trained a few new individuals, but it is a long and slow process, and quite frankly I am not impressed with the majority of the "up and coming" potentials.  It seems like working with your hands is becoming a lost art for many.

The above doesn't even begin to address the issue of parts supply, parts modification, parts testing (that is required with nearly every part these days), and parts inconsistency.  All of the aforementioned adds a great deal to the labor time and cost to be able to ship a top quality product.  Then you get into customer support, parts support, parts manufacturing, etc, etc...

As for your previous comments on "stepping up their game"  First off, you didn't look at my instagram as stated, because I don't have an instagram...  I don't do social media besides a small private FB group for owners and I almost never post build related content.  I don't have the time, nor the interest, and I don't need the sales.  Others have already commented in my defense and I don't care to spend a lot more time on it, but you won't find a more engineered and tested Speedster replica on the market than mine, period, and we continue to grow and develop every single year.  That said, my old 3" round tube chassis, which was engineered by Chuck (Beck) in the mid 1990s is more advanced than the BAT link.  My current chassis isn't even in the same conversation as the BAT car.  I won't bother to comment about the dozen or more issues I see with the BAT car, not my place nor my intent, and selfishly I also don't feel the need to educate other builders on what they are doing wrong, figure it out on your own, I did.

Finally, you ask for mentorship in a disagreement, so I encourage you to reread the above posts without any inflection of the posters perceived attitude.  Several of the most knowledgable people in this industry/hobby have stated facts and although they didn't sugar coat it, the mentorship is there.  It seems like maybe you didn't want your opinion questioned or were unwilling to listen to the facts, I'm not sure.  Just my $0.02

I've spent more time on this than I cared to, so I'm out... good luck with the auction and whatever future endeavors are involved with it... hopefully you can figure out this site as it can be an amazing resource.

thanks for your reply and information... it did serve as a learned lesson

@WNGD posted:

The point is that the innovations that you are urging US manufacturers to make has already been done (primarily at Beck) and is ongoing, far ahead of anything currently being done in elsewhere.

Imagine a world where you produce a quality product at a fair price from shabby parts irregularly supplied from East Asia. Imagine you are doing this with a small pool of skilled crafts and tradesmen, jobs young people tend to shy away from. Imagine that you've spent the better part of 5 years completely retooling your product, and several million dollars purchasing land and building EPA compliant fiberglass and paint stations.

Imagine having a 36 month long backlog of customers willing to wait for this product because there's nothing comparable available anywhere else.

Then imagine a silicon valley guy with zero experience in automotive design and manufacturing, or racing, or fabrication, or repair coming onto the largest replica 356 enthusiast site in the world and saying,

@Todd Dean posted:

The current 3 are basically building the same car with slight fit and finishes separating them. IMHO

and

@Todd Dean posted:

VMC, Beck and JPS need to step up and modernize their cars or P356R could be the premier builder

I'd go off shaking my head, wondering what kind of world we've made where everything I've done to improve my product can be undone by a random guy with a keyboard. I'd either go ballistic or get a stiff drink or both.

I'm not sure what it is about computer and software guys that makes them think they're the only people who know anything about business. My son-in-law worked for one of the largest commercial construction companies in the western US. They were purchased by software guys from Silicon Valley who were going to bring their knowhow and processes into construction to disrupt the industry and revolutionize the entire business. People have been building structures since before recorded history, and the process is HIGHLY developed and really amazing -- but the software guys thought that the existing and profitable company (the one they had purchased for many millions of dollars) had been run by idiots and needed disrupting, apparently. It was a cluster from day 1, and Katera lasted 2 (?) years before imploding and leaving thousands of employees SOL and hundreds of multimillion dollar projects standing unfinished. The last thing I heard was that the original owners had formed a new company and were finishing (at a great profit) the projects the innovators had left incomplete.

My takeaway? Not every business is software, but lots of software guys think the software model works for every other business.

This hobby is a tiny little corner of the automotive hobbyist universe. They're under constant attack from legislation intended to shut down boutique car builders, the EPA (which would rather nobody ever used chemicals like those found in fiberglass resin or automotive paint thinner again), and from states who don't want to register them.

We have a couple great builders here. They know what they're doing. They're worth defending.

Stan nailed it.

I like that these P356Rs tried a little harder to make the fiberglass look more like the  original 356 sheetmetal ,

Just simple things like the gas tank + front hood area , they even put the indents for the front firewall and the  indents in the floorpans ,

The "stinkbug" look is stupid , No idea why the California seller would not have adjusted that ,

Yes IRS would have been better , and Brazil and Mexician beetles were only straight axle ,   I imagine you could have made them IRS and shipped down a crate from the USA of trailing arms and transmission parts but that probably would add $1000-$2000 to the build cost ,

I compare these to the Hawaiian Garden Speedster built 20 years ago ( the 5 a week cars ) ,  Just wonder where they are priced ,

I think there is room for everyone , 

and as Rodney King said 

"People, I just want to say, can't we all get along? Can't we all get along?"

@imperial posted:

I like that these P356Rs tried a little harder to make the fiberglass look more like the  original 356 sheetmetal ,

Just simple things like the gas tank + front hood area , they even put the indents for the front firewall and the  indents in the floorpans ,

I agree, those are very nice authentic touches.

ISP West is known as a source for reproduction VW parts, particularly Type 3. Interesting that they decided to build this, if that is in fact the case.

I'm assuming that most every part came out of their line of reproduction VW product bins, except the body and "tube" frame.

I wonder what prompted them to do this?

OP please post a pic of your Superwide. I really do love them and wish the manufacturers were still offering them.

@Stan Galat posted:

To my knowledge, there was never an IRS Beetle (Fusca) made in Brazil, which produced and sold them for a lot longer than in the US. Brazil was very, very protectionist for a long time, with high tariffs on imports -- which is why VW built cars there rather than just importing them from elsewhere. Development centered on things for the Brazilian market (building an alcohol powered car, for example) rather than on things that were important to other markets (like IRS).  I was in Brazil for 3 months in the early 80s, and Sao Paulo Fuscas/Beetles were everywhere and dirt cheap new (<$3000).

I would assume that the tube-frame Speedsters coming from Brazil use swing axles because they're still readily available, where an IRS setup would be imported and therefore subject to the onerous import duty.

Today I learned...  I knew about the protectionist thing, but not the swing axle thing.

Buh bye, I'm out of here.

@WNGD posted:

OP please post a pic of your Superwide. I really do love them and wish the manufacturers were still offering them.

What made you think you can't?   Vintage Motorcars of California will build you one.

@Troy Sloan posted:

What made you think you can't?   Vintage Motorcars of California will build you one.

I always forget they offer both a wide and Superwide option at a $5000 premium

@Panhandle Bob posted:

ISP West is known as a source for reproduction VW parts, particularly Type 3. Interesting that they decided to build this, if that is in fact the case.

I'm assuming that most every part came out of their line of reproduction VW product bins, except the body and "tube" frame.

I wonder what prompted them to do this?

ISP West has been around for decades ,  Alex is the owner  and his family is  Brazilian.

These replicas I believe have been being made in Brazil  for years and ISP West  is just selling them in the USA ,

I doubt much is coming  from ISP Wests  reproduction VW product line ,  maybe he is sourcing the rims and some engine parts ,  but Brazil  is probably using the repro 356 parts that have been made forever.

Anyway , I am  guessing $37K for the BAT Auction

Current bid is 50k with 1 day left. Might get a little exciting the last 10 minutes... Stay tuned

As I've always said, all cars comes down to personal preference - A neighbor has a beat up TR4, constantly underneath it and would never sell it...

This thread sums up why I stopped posting on this forum…

@TwinCitiesSpeedster posted:

This thread sums up why I stopped posting on this forum…

Looks like you haven't stopped.

@Panhandle Bob posted:

Looks like you haven't stopped.

Ha, case in point. My most recent post prior to today was over two years ago… Carry on! ✌️

@Stan Galat posted:

Innovation is a big word, cheapened by incremental changes to improve something without changing it very much.

I'm curious where the innovation and "vision for the future" is on the Brazilian car.

We've already discussed that it's a swing axle, and I offered what I think is the reason for it (cheap/easy parts availability in Brazil). It's certainly not better than even VW IRS (which VW in Germany went to 55 years ago) and an order of magnitude more crude than a coil-over independent A-arm setup (as on the new Becks).

If you're going to have a VW beam, the way it's mounted and carried is the key to making it better. My IM mounts as far out on the beam as possible. This Brazilian car uses stock (narrow) beam mounting points. That makes it exactly the same as any other pan-based car, even if you aren't using the Napoleon's hat. It's still got worm-gear steering, even though there's a good rack and pinion available (from a VW Polo) if one wants it. A Beck OTOH, is (again) a purpose-built independent coil-over suspension with A-arms. IM was using early 911 front suspensions for 30 years, if an owner was willing to pay for it.

I like the trunk and engine treatment in the Brazilian car, but it's more retro than innovative. It's not a Subaru. It's a T1 in a pretty dress. Again, I don't care, but IM was successfully putting Porsche 6 cylinders with extended wheelbases in cars 30 years ago.

I'm not sure why this point is being pushed so hard. Both VMC and Beck have expanded their facilities and stepped up their game enormously in the last 5 years. Becks covers an entire corner of a small Indiana town (both sides of two streets).

You keep talking about this car and CAD. I'm not sure why you are trying to tie the tech world to a car that is cheaper because it is made in Brazil. Brazil is by no means a leader in design or manufacturing. Brazil has one advantage over the US for manufacturing -- it has cheaper labor and materials than the US. That's the only reason the car is less expensive. There's no CAD anything on this.

To a lot of us, it looks very much like you have a financial interest here. If you do, that's super-cool! I've sorta' wanted to participate on the supply side of this hobby for years. But if that's the case, please say so. If you continue to post as if you're just a guy with no stake (when you in fact DO have a stake), that's a different matter altogether.

Please clarify.

Software drives the world with innovation -

What boat, airplane, car, house, HVAC mechanical, financial institution, medical, college, power/water utilities provider and the list goes on & on & on & on not using computer software to built, maintain and service the world?

@Todd Dean posted:

Software drives the world with innovation -

What boat, airplane, car, house, HVAC mechanical, financial institution, medical, college, power/water utilities provider and the list goes on & on & on & on not using computer software to built, maintain and service the world?

Software isn't driving innovation.  Innovation existed long before computers.  Every one of the listed industries pre dates software.  

Do computer and software make things easier? Absolutely, until they don't.