Porsche Style Fan Shroud

This almost reminds me of the old George Brown days with the original Speedster Owners email list... Glad to see some piss and vinegar back in the posts here.

I'll go on about my business and based on these responses I can say that I am glad that I have made the decisions that I have over the past few years. Enjoy your tubs, fellas.

Jake!

Will we see you at Carlisle or are things too busy?

I'll buy you (and your wife) an egg sammich (or the sammich of your choice) just to say Hi!

gn

Hey Jim - do you have any references for this or is it an anecdotal comment?

"have read that a stock fan may require as little as 5 hp to drive it at 6000 engine rpm. A 911 style fan will require several times that amount of HP, I have seen people claiming it will take 25 hp to push the 11 blade fan to 6000 rpm. (fan rpm will be more in the 10,000rpm range at 6 or 7000 crank rpm....)"

I am not certain where the HP numbers can be found today. I saw the 5 hp number for a stock fan in the very recent past on line. The larger number (25 hp?) for the 911 shroud was from a discussion regarding the same sorts of things we are batting about here, whoever stated the larger number was one of the engine builders, they stated it was from actual dyno reads they did with a number of shrouds and fans on VW engines. I don't find it today...and it could have been any of the premier builders who made the claim.....I can't say for certain which one it was....

you might be interested in http://www.offroadvw.net/tech/wes/fan.html
http://www.offroadvw.net/tech/brad/fanshroudtech.htm

Gordon, No Carlisle for me.. I've never been there, we are wide open with 11 month backlogs.. Its too far and at the wrong time of the year for me. I only hit 1-2 VW/ Porsche events a year these days, staying closer to home and enjoying events that aren't VW or Porsche related... Where I can actually enjoy myself without having the hell bothered out of me..

"...enjoy myself without having the hell bothered out of me"

Excuse us.

Joe,

The holes around the engine bay are blanks, they do not go all the way through.

I do plan to do some more alum work closing off the lower area of the engine bay. I just got the car back together before these photos. I do totaly understand how a VW/Porsche air cooled engine bay is designed to work.

As for you other comments about the Porsche fan shroud, I come from a school of thought that says that anything is possible, and I can make just about anything work right. Maybe I'm wrong and I won't be able to make the Porsche style fan shroud work right if it does not already. But what the hell how will I ever know if I do not try. I pretty sure of myself because I have fixxed or improved many after market and original parts. Hell do you think any of us would have anything bigger then a 1600cc engine if everyone listened to the people that said it would not work? Just saying......

One man's quest to make a 911 style shroud work- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=372579&highlight=exercise+futility

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of diverting air in a stock 911 shroud. This is what I'm going to try once I get my engine back.

You first challenge is to move cylinder #2 from being directly above the cooling fan.. Your next challenge is to remove cylinder 4 from under the fan and opposite the tangential flow of air produced by the fan.

Those who have real 911 experience know how far behind the fan the first pair of cylinders are- None of the cylinders in the original application are placed directly below the cooling fan. Directly under the fan of a 911 engine is the area where the timing chains are housed- by design. The first pair of cylinders are 6 full inches away from the cooling fan discharge. This allows air to be gently directed to them. The diverter pictured did nothing in my experience as the T1 and TIV shrouds are not deep enough and have improperly positioned cylinders. Turning air 120 degrees in less than 5 inches isn't very effective and thats what happens with #2 and #4 cylinders positioned almost directly underneath the cooling fan.

This is the single biggest issue that you will face when attempting to create an optimum 911 style arrangement. Its the one thing that none of the systems address and it is what results in cool 1-3 cylinders and hot 1-2 cylinder no matter what is done.

Now you can ponder that. I have been there and experienced it for weeks on end.

BTW- I am an aircooled enthusiast just like all of you here, but I can't attend a show in a "non commercial" manner no matter what... Even if I park my damn car in the parking lot! Thats where my reference of having the hell bothered out of me came from. The requests for free advice are just the icing on the cake for a ruined weekend.

You're right, Jake, it will be a challenge.
But the shroud was practically free and it's always fun to futz around.

I know what you mean about the free advice. I rarely can go to someone's home without being approached for design advice. I don't mind, however, as I enjoy sharing the gift I was given. :-)

"I am an aircooled enthusiast just like all of you here, but I can't attend a show in a "non commercial" manner no matter what... Even if I park my damn car in the parking lot! Thats where my reference of having the hell bothered out of me came from. The requests for free advice are just the icing on the cake for a ruined weekend".

Maybe it's me, but can you explain again why you can't have a good time being with all these people who apparently respect you beyond words...

And Terry, can you explain how you understand this, or were you being sarcastic...

Jake on his website tells quite a bit of his personal story which helped me understand where is coming from. Jake's putting it in print was a neat thing for me as I actually have a relative who has a similar story and after a little research I understand him more as well.
It may seem a little sappy but it's true.

Unfortunately I still have no reason for being a card carrying a$$!

Just come by it naturally. :-)

To make the axial fan setup a bit more effective the internal shroud vanes would be an improvement. You do want to have a smooth transition for air flow to eliminate eddy's/ turbulent flow. Means no sharp corners. One would need to make foam curving shapes and glass them into the shroud. More blades also push more air . I do recall Porsche does have two styles of fans. Fan RPMs- Smaller pulley on the fan will spin it faster. Faster means more are flow . Down side is the rpm limits for the alternator bearings.
To get a better understanding of air flow , look at turbine engine or turbo designs.
Yes anything is possible yet time and efficiency is key.

C'mon Vince, you know know me well enough to know what I meant...;-)

It was late, i was tired, sorry for the mis-understanding....

My wife won't hand me a tool because she is afraid I'll hurt myself, it's actually a joke between us. we have insurance for just about everything, so when something breaks, it's merely a phone call to get it fixed. I also have all the services covered, (plumbing, electrical, etc) I won't say that I am proud of this, but i do know my limitations.
If you are looking for free advice, I'm your man, but if you take it, it's your own fault....

Come on Vinnie . Give Terry a hug.

Did somebody say they need a hug....

Thanks for the links.... It looks like I have my work cut out for me just by a quick overlook of what others have done. At anyrate, I'll move forward with my task and do my very best to make it work. I never say never, until the end.....

I didn't mean to offend anyone with my fanaticism concering AC stuff. I could fluff it up but I've seen too many cooked motors to back off..just saying.

Good luck Kevin. If anyone can do it you can.

Cuz' Vinnie your motor does look BA'...bad ass. Black and all wicked. Chicks dig that sh*t ...

To be Jake at a show.. well I saw Jake at one show and there were hoards of folks all over him, badgering him with AC questions... and screaming teens and the press were relentless. Crazy.. On Sunday he was rushed away in an aircooled limo...barely getting away unscathed. I remember he discarded a soda can and some nut case retrieved it out of the bin...That was the last time I saw him in public life...

Ya Moose, as soon as I got that new shroud, the chicks were all over me..forget the motor getting hot, my wife is the one I need to cool down....

damn Vin I gotta rethink this shroud thing. I'm single on purpose this summer and need all the help I can get

One of the nicest engine bays I've seen!
Rock on Kevin.
How much for a set of those firewall pieces?

barne,

"well I saw Jake at one show and there were hoards of folks all over him, badgering him with AC questions... and screaming teens and the press were relentless. Crazy.. On Sunday he was rushed away in an aircooled limo...barely getting away unscathed. I remember he discarded a soda can and some nut case retrieved it out of the bin...That was the last time I saw him in public life..."

Sounds bad but it leaves me wondering what his security guys were doing?

The worst is the autograph seekers - especially the little kids - they get all whiney when your people push them aside. The sniveling racket ruins my day and I'm nowhere near the celebrity Jake has become.

Bill I can make up another set of fire walls for about $240 shipped.

Ken = HAR!

"aircooled limo" Nice.

The ebay prices for Jake's blown-up test cases and other mechanical detritus have gone through the roof. I'm thinking I may sell my collection but then I wonder--how high can they go?

Especially after the Johnny Depp movie treatment coming in 2013 . . . .

Ed--what movie is that?

Last week a potato chip with a shape that resembled one of JAKE's DTM fan shrouds sold for 10000 bux on ebay.

Yeah, and down in Mississippi a woman went into convulsions and began speaking in tongues when she noticed that the dust on her screen door had formed a perfect likeness of Jake.

She was hospitalized.

Meanwhile the news people couldn't get their cameras to record the dusty image even while the cameraman claimed to see it clearly in his viewfinder.

Local police spokeswoman said on the air that it was clear that the woman had seen SOMETHING that affected her considerably, and that their report would be inconclusive, attributing the event to the possible mystical powers of Jake which are widely subscribed to amongst certain cults in the deep south.

Do you think I can get him to sign my shroud some day...

Jack the name of the new Johnny Depp movie is going to be called>

"Pirates of the Carribean: Shrouds of Mystery"

The image of JAKE in the screen is surely a 'sign'...we best not take that too lightly

Vin that's gonna be tough. Those sig's are goin for big $$ these days... but if you do get one your gonna be one lucky guy. Chicks dig that sh*t

Thanks, Barne.

Guys, I know this is in good fun, but let's not get too carried away. Jake is a good guy who runs a business based on research and development. Apart from a handfull of dudes and dudettes like us -- who usually want to do things to make a VW into Steve Austin for as little money as possible -- there isn't a whole lot of demand to keep Jake interested in what we want (or will want) next.

He's doing wonders with Boxster engines and cranking out answers before the questions come up. I'm going to take a guess that he's probably doing enough there that his VW days could be numbered if he so chose, and I'd hate to be here watching this thread as it became the irritant that put him over the top on our little corner of the market.

I would ask that we treat him as well as we treat the other heroes of this hobby; Henry, Chuck, Kevin, Carey, Steve, John, Jim, Max (and so on) rather than irritate the guy whose air-cooled research is the ONLY ongoing development to improve these aging beasts.

He is blunt, to the point and his time is worth something. He's probably not a pleasant guy when his mind is engaged elsewhere, but he's forthright, seems to be correct the majority of the time AND he's a good friend to our hobby as a whole.

I'm off the soapbox.

Cory,
Thanks for your post. Our 996/997/Cayman/Boxster division has grown beyond anything I ever expected back when I started developing the engines and fixes to their numerous problems.

I generate more from just my technician levels classes that I offer for the M96/M97 engines than we generate from the entire aircooled division. I only continue to develop the aircooled engines and offer them because thats our roots and I have three dedicated employees that have been with me since the beginning and they have families depend on those jobs. Our aircooled work built the brand, built this facility and paid for all the modern engine developments.

We have moved on but we also maintain our roots; supporting Porsche engine development from 1950-2012. Today I carried out development on our "Cayman X" project, dyno tested a 2270cc Type 4 and did a mock up assembly on a JR28 Suby engine. One thing that has never changed is the fact that I love to make anything better.

As to what people say or think- None of it matters.

Thank you Jake, I was going to bust Cory's balls, but you saved me the time. I have never met you, but your reputation precedes (sp) you, I will assume being around as long as you have you know when someone is just pulling your chain....
The jury is still out on my new shroud, but I hope you are wrong.
The devil made me do it...

Vinny, It'll run just fine.. Just drive it.

hey no way was I dissing Jake. That's impossible in our world and that would surely be 'pissin on the pope'.

I feel his pain. Sure I'd like to comb his mind but he's super busy doin his thing. He posts here and that's awesome. No need to pester him. Actually our sophmoric' little chirade could be perceived as some form of flattery.

He knows we're all kidding...and the real joke is on all the crazy folks that pursue him. It's tough being famous I know. I watch 'E Entertainment'. I see what Britney and Brad go through...

Sorry it got outta hand but it is fun to let your imagination loose. You guys can f*ck with me all ya want..it's all good fun here on the SOC'

Jake if your listening sorry 'bout that. Hey if your not busy could you comment in my 'quick steering' thread. The idea is I want to fab up a longer PITMAN ARM.

Now some kid in Idaho came up with a potato that has the face of barne, but the thing is.....it's got hair.

oh my haha. ken nice one. Lucky I don't resemble that remark. Semi youthful 52 and still got most of it.

So that potato is a fake!!