Port Matching Heads

Pat Downs did ALL of the work in designing all of the heads and did ALL of the port matching at CB. When he retired all of his expertise left with him because they didn't have the foresight to use his 2 year notice to train anyone. In fact they don't do any engine building or custom work any more. You want to buy a kit? They can sell you that but you won't get any support from them on building it.

If you want port matching work done contact Pat at https://patdownsperformance.com/ and he can do whatever you want.

@Teammccalla posted:

I asked CB to send me a set of hand-marched manifolds for the Panchito to Dellorto connections.  They said “nope.”  There is no point in hand porting, they said, if they don’t have the heads and the carbs.  I find this surprising, considering that they are the ones that supply the heads, but what’s a guy to do?

You talked to David, didn't you?

David's answer to every question is "no". I'm told Mark has better customer service skills, but I can never seem to get past David. Filling special orders, providing parts for kits purchased in the past, or even selling things currently in the catalog (like port-matched manifolds for Panchitos) seems to make David break out in hives.

I'd call Pat.

I talked to a woman at CB. I don’t remember her name.

I will call Pat to see if he’ll do the job or give me advice. When talked to him about the project on Monday, he recommended putting double springs in the heads anyway. Maybe he’d be willing to do the heads and manifolds at the same time. I could send him the carbs too just for checking flow. Even if it costs a few bucks extra, I think the finished product would be great!

I’d still be willing to grind on them myself, but shaping is an art and I don’t doubt he’s the best.

Why wouldn't you simply order the manifolds from CB that are already port-matched to your heads?

I built a motor 2 years ago and ordered CNC machined manifolds to match. And they did, perfectly.

They're in the online catalog.

Is it possible they don't currently have anyone that can run the machinery?

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3162.htm

@DannyP and @Stan Galat I ordered those, but they have an option for hand finishing.  I assume this is to make sure there are no transition edges between joints, and maybe cleaning up casting junk on the inside?  What I’m hearing from you is that the ones made for Panchitos should be fine as is.

When they arrive, I will eyeball it and report back.

@Teammccalla posted:

@DannyP and @Stan Galat I ordered those, but they have an option for hand finishing.  I assume this is to make sure there are no transition edges between joints, and maybe cleaning up casting junk on the inside?  What I’m hearing from you is that the ones made for Panchitos should be fine as is.

When they arrive, I will eyeball it and report back.

I see no option on CB website for hand porting on the Panchito 3162 manifolds.  Those manifolds come with the same profile cast in as the heads.  I would just clean up the transitions from the sharp edges on the machining.  A few minutes with the die grinder and a sanding scroll is all it will take.  The other thing that needs to be done is flatten the mounting ears. The pair I have were lumpy. As a minimum, file them flat.  I set them up in the mill and took a few light passes and made a little more room for the nuts.

@Stan Galat posted:

You talked to David, didn't you?

David's answer to every question is "no". I'm told Mark has better customer service skills, but I can never seem to get past David. Filling special orders, providing parts for kits purchased in the past, or even selling things currently in the catalog (like port-matched manifolds for Panchitos) seems to make David break out in hives.

I'd call Pat.

I had the same experience- I called about the weight of their aluminum front hubs (I don't see them in the catalog at the moment) and they didn't know. Couldn't spend 5 minutes grabbing 1 and putting it on a scale- I even said he could email the info when he had a moment to get it done, but no, no one had time for that.  Probably the same guy- lazy %&$*

Chico's Performance has a guy that does as good a job of port matching as anyone. He did mine and they were perfect.........Bruce

Apparently I have had better luck with David.  I called and spoke with him when the new aluminum rear brake kit came out. I wanted to know the weight of the rotor/hub.  He asked if I could wait a minute or two while he threw it on a scale.  I had my answer within a couple of minutes.

If you have any issues, I would ask for Marianne, as she has been there for decades.

@LI-Rick posted:

I see no option on CB website for hand porting on the Panchito 3162 manifolds.  Those manifolds come with the same profile cast in as the heads.  I would just clean up the transitions from the sharp edges on the machining.  A few minutes with the die grinder and a sanding scroll is all it will take.  The other thing that needs to be done is flatten the mounting ears. The pair I have were lumpy. As a minimum, file them flat.  I set them up in the mill and took a few light passes and made a little more room for the nuts.

I did the same thing to mine, Rick.

@LI-Rick posted:

I see no option on CB website for hand porting on the Panchito 3162 manifolds.  Those manifolds come with the same profile cast in as the heads.  I would just clean up the transitions from the sharp edges on the machining.  A few minutes with the die grinder and a sanding scroll is all it will take.  The other thing that needs to be done is flatten the mounting ears. The pair I have were lumpy. As a minimum, file them flat.  I set them up in the mill and took a few light passes and made a little more room for the nuts.

I had to do that as well to the ears. I used a hand grinder though(no mill). The port-match on the parts was perfect. They were Super-Pro 45 x 37.5, flycut to 58cc chambers. The Big Beef manifolds took a LOT of work on the tins to fit. Lots of cutting and hammer/dolly work.

I think the heads and manifolds took between 3 to 6, maybe 8 weeks. The crank, flywheel and clutch took a couple weeks to get balanced then ship. This was from January to the summer of 2021. We pulled the motor just before Christmas 2020, I had it ready to put back in mid-June 2021.

I had to build the dry sump oil system, mount the cooler/fan/thermostat and make all the hoses too. Besides that, I installed a cable shifter, fabricated a transmission mount, and fabricated an ebrake/shifter mount.

The car was finished by Labor Day weekend and appeared at the LRP Vintage Festival. Made it there and back under its own power.

Good work takes time.

@DannyP wrote: “The Big Beef manifolds took a LOT of work on the tins to fit. Lots of cutting and hammer/dolly work.”

So it wasn’t just mine!  I kept thinking as I was bending and hammering away on the head tins, “What the Hell were they thinking????”

And later, I bouht a new set of head tins and had to go through it all over again!  At least I had the old tins to use as a model.  Even then, the fit of the ball end of the plug wire to the plug hole is more of a suggestion.

I've got big-beef manifolds as well (they fit on an IM Speedster, but not on a pan-based car). I bought the heads and manifolds before Pat left CBP, so I was able to get Pat to port-match mine.

I flattened the backs of my flanges, and gave myself some room to get a socket on the nuts with a big mill file, and knocked down some of the excess material on the outside of the manifolds with an angle grinder and Walter flapper disc (try a Walter - you'll never go back). I wish I had a mill, but I don't.

Tin always needs massaged. I use DTMs, which means cutting and using a die-grinder to shape the holes in the fiberglass.

I decided to upgrade the heads.  Pat Downs recommended dual spring heads when I asked him about installing Dellortos and A-1 Sidewinder exhaust.  He said in no uncertain terms that I MUST upgrade the valve springs.  He almost guaranteed that I would damage my engine with an overrev with the extra power.  I haven't done that yet, and so it is in process right now. 

@Teammccalla posted:

I decided to upgrade the heads.  Pat Downs recommended dual spring heads when I asked him about installing Dellortos and A-1 Sidewinder exhaust.  He said in no uncertain terms that I MUST upgrade the valve springs.  He almost guaranteed that I would damage my engine with an overrev with the extra power.  I haven't done that yet, and so it is in process right now.

Ask Pat if he has used any of Dan Ruddock’s Beehive springs.  I recently put together a set of Panchito’s with these, but that motor probably will not be run for a long time, as I’m waiting on the car it is going into.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/cl...etail.php?id=2077442

I bough a set of beehives from Dan for a Formula Vee motor, but haven't built it yet. I hear good things about them.

I seem to recall that @Stan Galat has behives.