Post Rear axel issues

On an IRS transaxle, If the rear axle nut is not torqued to 250+ ft/lbs (spec is 263) the rear brake drum/rotor will quickly strip the splines.  The axles will spin but not the wheels.

Thank you so much for your response. Appreciate it!
I watched my mechanic do the entire job. I have swing axels. Should have mentioned that.
We discussed the torque of the axel nut and he confirmed. I’m afraid he didn’t top off gear oil and could that caused damage in the gear box after 7 miles driven?
It makes a terrible noise trying to put in gear. It was running perfectly I just wanted leak fixed. Car is 19 month old new build by Vintage Motors in Hawaii Gardens.

Oh wow. I’m so sorry.

Unfortunately, tiny little scratches on the spacers can cause leaks. I don't know why, but a LOT of folks have trouble with leaks here. Another thing is if the seal carrier/bearing cap has a truly flat surface(here a belt sander works well). And always use NEW O-rings and a new paper gasket. NO RTV NEEDED ever. New spacers are available from Weddle Industries.

Sometimes, on a swing axle, the axle spade comes too far out of the side gear and the fulcrum plates can go behind the axle spade, causing all sorts of troubles. This only happens when the big nut isn't locked down on the disc/drum assembly.

Anyway, this causes things like not going when put in gear. If this happened, it can be repaired by removing the one axle tube and re-doing the fulcrum plates, spacers, and snap ring.

In Formula Vee, we run the oil level about an inch below the "full" amount with no ill effects, so I doubt low gear oil is your problem.

Unfortunately, the motor and transaxle will probably need to come out for repair. It's not a full rebuild though. Probably a partial fix will do it.

I've rebuilt over a dozen swing axle transmissions. I'm set up to do it with all the proper tools. I was told I'd never get my first one back together too. The naysayers were WRONG.

Thank you so much Danny.
Brand new seal kit was used and that larger spacer with scratches in the pic  was replaced. That’s how it looked today after disassembly. It was extremely difficult to get off.
the car was running perfectly but I started hearing an intermittent clicking type noise within a half mile of leaving mechanic.
After about almost home (7miles) it would not move when I tried to put in gear at a stop sign. It then started making horrible grinding like noise. A man and a woman got out of their cars to help  because I was stuck in the middle of the road. I had the women steer and the man and I pushed it a quarter mile to my house.
Thanks again for your input. I’m pretty bummed on a 19 month new build.

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Dennis, it's possible this latest problem may not be related to the seals just constantly leaking previously.

Do you have EMPI rear disc brakes?

My 2013 VS (the old VS, not Greg's VM) had the same problem when new. It turns out EMPI made two separate mounting brackets for the same rear brakes — one was a solid, cast bracket, the other was much cheaper and stamped out of sheet metal.

Guess which ones were on my car originally.

I went through two seals on each side in rapid succession. We replaced one of the stamped brackets with the cast one and leaking stopped on that side. We then replaced the other and no leaks ever since (maybe eight years ago).

The stamped one flexes. The cast one doesn't. But the cast ones did cost about $90 each.

So, I guess the stamped bracket is for customers who, what — don't use their brakes a lot?

.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

So, I guess the stamped bracket is for customers who, what — don't use their brakes a lot?

You found the target customer, Mitch.

"The Quality is Going In Before the Name Is Going On", I believe you once said.

I believe I've posted about this before but just in case I'll post again.

One of the biggest problems we see with rear axle seal leak on a swingaxle is due to caliper bracket thickness and the bearing cap.  This is a precise fit part and made to sandwich everything down onto a drum brake backing plate, which is thickened in the bearing cap seal surface area. The disc brake caliper brackets insert into this same location in place of the drum brake backing plate. If the caliper bracket is not the same thickness as the backing plate it replaces, you'll have issues.  Too loose and it doesn't;t compress everything like it should and leaks, too tight and it over compresses things, can bind them up or cut the o-rings and create a leak as well.  

So, if the caliper bracket is too thick it needs milled or turn the bearing cap down, and if it is too thin it needs shimmed to make up the gap...

re: forged vs. flat plate caliper bracket:  I prefer the forged bracket and use it on all swingaxle cars, but it does not fit a narrowed trailing arm so you are forced to use the sheet metal bracket in those applications.  It's in shear and has little force on in the lateral plane, so while on the surface it may seem "cheap" it is more than enough for even the biggest brakes.  In fact, it is more robust than some of the Brembo and Wildwood brackets that come in their various kits.

THAT^^^^

Great information, Carey. The material the bracket is made from isn't as important as the bracket's thickness and also if it is SMOOTH and FLAT, so it seals. Totally agree that all the brackets are adequate for braking purposes.

As Carey says, everything must stack up so the bearing is held tightly and the outer O-ring crushes enough to seal without getting cut. The inner O-ring seal is entirely dependent on axle nut torque and smoothness of the spacer's inner chamfer.

In fact, a LOT of problems are caused by people not having and using a proper hardened thin spacer washer that is supposed to go on the inner bearing. Order of assembly: bearing, thin spacer, O-ring, large spacer that rides inside the oil seal, then the drum/rotor, then the big nut.

Great information about brackets and leaks The leaks I have had are very small with a quarter size spot on cardboard I lay under car. but now I’m stumped with the biggest issue of why my car will not move when I put it in any gear? Makes screeching noise. It really was running great with no noises or any issues shifting.
Stumped.

@Dennis Connaughton posted:

Great information about brackets and leaks The leaks I have had are very small with a quarter size spot on cardboard I lay under car. but now I’m stumped with the biggest issue of why my car will not move when I put it in any gear? Makes screeching noise. It really was running great with no noises or any issues shifting.
Stumped.

When I was a 17 year-old know it all, I worked at a Mobil service station (when there was such a thing). I was the oil change/tire/exhaust guy. The only rule of the shop was "don't ever put the car down off the lift unless you immediately put the oil in". No lunch breaks, no trips to the bathroom, nothing -- if the car came down, the oil went back in.

Of course I was cool and didn't do this one day. I dropped the man's 6-month old car, and went to lunch. The vehicle owner came to the shop, the car was down, the guy watching the drive tossed him the keys, and he drove off without any oil.

The odds of this being a "car" problem rather than a "mechanic" problem are vanishingly small. The car worked when you took it to the guy and locked up while driving it home.

That's a data point I can't get past.

Great point @Stan Galat  You don't know how many times I've told clients (and a few employees) that "A" worked before you changed "B" so you need to see what you did to effect "A" and correct it.

How do I allow access to my videos on this website? My videos I have in my photo library do not appear on this particular website when I try to add them as an attachment. The photos do appear just not videos. It’s 26MB. I don’t have issue on other platforms.

Dennis, I upload to YouTube and then put the link here. That works for me, others will have different/ better solutions.

The question for me: Is the oil empty or merely low from swapping the seal? If empty, yeah that could be a problem in very short order.

If not empty, it is more likely there is a fulcrum plate issue as described above. It is easy to have happen especially if you had a hard time pulling the old oil seal spacer off.

There could also be an internal issue, but as Stan says it's more likely that the problem lies with what was just touched.

Danny. It was low from replacing the one passenger side rear seal.
that spacer I showed with the prior scratches was extremely difficult to remove. Had to heat to remove.
new one needed sanding on it and splines. It started making an odd knocking or clicking noise within .25 miles almost like I was dragging something. It was intermittent not constant every quarter mile or so.
I live about seven miles. everything underneath when I got home looked okay. It was running great. Not an unusual noise to be heard.

@Stan Galat posted:

When I was a 17 year-old know it all, I worked at a Mobil service station (when there was such a thing). I was the oil change/tire/exhaust guy.

Me too.  At 16, my first job was at the Mobil gas station at the corner of PCH and Torrance Blvd. in Redondo Beach.  I was the "fill 'er up" guy as I knew nothing about cars except that I liked them.  Learned how to do oil changes and mount tires and then on to other things.

You'll get some oil drain out of the tubes, especially with them hanging down (on a 2 post lift for example) but it shouldn't be enough oil loss to kill the gearbox, especially in a 1/4 mile drive time.

As mentioned above, it is really easy to get a fulcrum plate to slip behind the axle if you aren't careful when you have the bearing cap off and especially if you had the snap rings and spacers out of the box.  It will make a metal on metal click and sometimes squeal and can really beat things up inside.

Thanks!

@Dennis Connaughton posted:

How do I allow access to my videos on this website? My videos I have in my photo library do not appear on this particular website when I try to add them as an attachment. The photos do appear just not videos. It’s 26MB. I don’t have issue on other platforms.

Paying members can post videos directly to the website. All others have to post their videos to their YouTube account, then post the link here.

Got it. Didn’t not know. Thanks so much.

@Dennis Connaughton posted:

Danny. It was low from replacing the one passenger side rear seal.
that spacer I showed with the prior scratches was extremely difficult to remove. Had to heat to remove.
new one needed sanding on it and splines. It started making an odd knocking or clicking noise within .25 miles almost like I was dragging something. It was intermittent not constant every quarter mile or so.
I live about seven miles. everything underneath when I got home looked okay. It was running great. Not an unusual noise to be heard.

If you want to swap the spacer with the axle and tube in place, heat is generally not needed.

But a bearing/bushing puller is. And you also need to get the puller in between the bearing and spacer, so you'll need a knife-edge bearing separator too.

If you hammered on the axle/spacer, and I'm betting you did(because you don't know any better) you most probably did as I stated above with the fulcrum plates. Or damaged the differential, cross shaft, side gears, and spider gears. That MIGHT be the source of your noise and lack of go.

If you had to sand/file the axle splines, I'd look HARD at the drum/rotor because the axle nut was probably loose and the axle and/or drum splines are ruined at this point.

As to your last sentence, unless a gear or shaft went through the trans case, it will ALWAYS look OK. You should have heard the noises my friend's 550 trans made when the reverse shaft self-destructed, taking out 3rd gear and the mainshaft coupler. All this caused by improper assembly and nothing else. It looked great on the outside, and still does after I fixed it.

And every bit of this trouble caused by a couple drops of gear oil. It is hard but not impossible to make these cars not leak. But unreasonable to expect them to NOT leak. They are NOT like a modern car.

My 550 leaks engine oil(which will be addressed as I know where it's coming from). MY FV leaks a little gear oil from one of the side covers on the trans. Again that can be fixed easy enough. But it's honestly easier to LEAVE IT ALONE and top up as needed.

The mechanic couldn’t get puller in between spacer. Tried taping with hammer/thin chisel. Wouldn't budge to get puller in. When heated it slid off. New Axel spacer was not hammered on. It went on by hand. But used fine grit paper inside it and spline high spot then flushed clean thoroughly.
you are right! Should have left alone since small leak. Thought I was doing right thing at the time. 😎

@Dennis Connaughton wrote: "Thought I was doing the right thing at the time."

Don't let it bother you too much.  We have ALL been in a similar predicament from time to time with these little, eccentric cars.  Happens to all of us, Dennis.

Thanks bud.

Good Military acronym  I often used in these scenarios. SNAFU.

I will just carry on and and look ahead! 😎🇺🇸

It's all good, Dennis. Don't beat yourself up. Without the knife-edge separator, there is only one way to get the spacer off without heat. I've used heat in many places, just not there. I don't like the smell of burnt gear oil LOL!

The other way requires removing the backing plate, drum, etc. off first. Then undoing the 6 bolt flange that holds the axle tube on and using the bearing puller to press the axle tube, bearing, and spacer off.

It's supposed to be a press fit, or at least snug.

But that is both more work and more mess. And then you need however many gaskets were on there before, and you get to re-assemble the whole deal.

I have a pair of long and large needle-nose pliers that I use to get the snap-ring off the diff so you can get the side gear out. I ground the tips down so they fit easily into the snap ring. You'll need something like this if the fulcrum plates have indeed gone behind the axle spade end.

Funny. One of best war movie seems ever! But I didn’t enjoy the smell yesterday!
This was solution today.
a 4oz bourbon old fashion 😆🇺🇸

@Dennis Connaughton posted:

Funny. One of best war movie seems ever! But I didn’t enjoy the smell yesterday!
This was solution today.
a 4oz bourbon old fashion 😆🇺🇸

I’m all about really good wine, cold lagers, and single malt scotch.  My son was visiting the other day and made me a whiskey sour with his homemade sour mix and WOW, was that tasty.

Tell me more, Robert. Is your son willing to share the recipe?

I don’t care for wine, and probably drink less than 20 beers (lagers, almost always) a year — but whiskey sours have been unfortunately tempting to me for the better part of 45 years. The thing is, it’s all about the sour mix (as in, any random bourbon or Canadian whiskey will do just fine), so a good mix is the holy grail of sours.

On the rocks, or as a slush?

@Stan Galat posted:

Tell me more, Robert. Is your son willing to share the recipe?

I don’t care for wine, and probably drink less than 20 beers (lagers, almost always) a year — but whiskey sours have been unfortunately tempting to me for the better part of 45 years. The thing is, it’s all about the sour mix (as in, any random bourbon or Canadian whiskey will do just fine), so a good mix is the holy grail of sours.

On the rocks, or as a slush?

He’s visiting tomorrow so I’ll have him give it to me.  And it was shaken with an egg white and served on the rocks.