Future New Speedster Owner

Vintage will most likely cost less than JPS. Both sources are good and have a good reputation. Oh there will always be a few exceptions but that being said, they are good choices. Vintage will get you a car faster though. If you want a more powerful motor, my recommendation is to get one from CB Performance  (a Calif company also) and have it installed by whom ever you choose for your car builder. Getting your car "close to the real thing" is entirely subjective and your choice as well. Your research and your choice of car Mfg. opinion/advice should get close to your satisfaction. I have a VS and am entirely happy with it. Anyway...these are my thoughts...happy hunting.....Bruce

Thank you for your thoughts - I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. I plan to visit Vintage when I'm in LA for business next month. I'll definitely explore the CB option for the motor. 

Thanks again! 

6 Months + 3 month build time would give you a Jan 17 delivery!  Look for a sorted used one and drive it this summer plus save $10k!  Plus if you then decide it isn't as expected you can resell and only maybe lose 41k vs $5+k.  Only down side is you may have to settle for color and options.  IMHO brand NEW is not a good thing with Speedsters.

How the hell, can you "lurk" for ten years and not post something before this??  

The fact that you are close enough to visit often during the build process is key to getting what you want, when you want.  Both of those shops (and especially JPS) respond better to buyer involvement during the build phase.  

Either shop has their own idea of what is "close to the 'real thing' in styling and look".  That mostly has to do with trim and accessories used and their placement.  Look at examples from both shops and decide what matches YOUR ideas better and go with them.  JPS has been noted for supposedly better "fit and finish" and whomever does their paint seems to know what they're doing.

It appears that with either of those builders, there WILL be some sorting of things "not quite right" after delivery.  Either shop with endeavor to make things right, while JPS seems to bitch more about it in the process, but they will make things right to your satisfaction, eventually.  I wrote an article that defines a vehicle checklist for new buyers to use to check out their car for both safety and aesthetic issues.  I believe you need to be a donating member to see it, but it's here:

https://www.speedsterowners.com...acceptance-checklist

Any decent mechanic who works on older, air-cooled VW's should be fine as your future, local wrench.  It is just an old VW Beetle underneath, after all, but a lot of the old VW Beetle mechanics are slowly riding into the sunset.  Check on here and ask who might be good in your local area.  It's the same as finding a good doctor - interview a few and choose the one you're most comfortable with.

Lastly, the engine.......  Yes, bigger is better, to a point of diminishing returns on investment, meaning that the $$$'s go way up over 2,110 cc's and the life expectancy may decrease (although just about any engine might outlive current ownership in these car/toys and type 4, 2+ Liter engines seem bullet-proof).  Roland Rascon or the guys at CB Performance or even the Berg Brothers can build a really good engine for you, but Bernie Bergman's shop is questionable at this time.  Do a search on here and you'll find out who's good and who's not-quite-so.  Again, talk with them all and see what they offer.  They all use mostly the same parts, but each shop gets some parts sourced from their own suppliers which might make a subtle difference.  They ALL really stand behind their work after delivery.  finding an engine builder close to where you live is a plus - they often work on the rest of the car, too!

Good luck!

I have to say that I would love a coupe. That is my next car!

Any coupes offer sun roofs yet?  

WOLFGANG posted:

Any coupes offer sun roofs yet?  

That would be the bomb - along with crank up windows not electric!

I bought my VS second hand in Toronto Canada and had it shipped across the country to my home in Vancouver. I mention this because for $30K CAD which is what now? - about $22K USD, you get a good vehicle at a good price. Check out Kijiji or Auto Trader. I know there is a dealer in San Diego who sells a lot of these cars second hand. It cost about an extra $3K to ship by truck from Toronto to Vancouver  so I image about $4K to ship to California with a very reputable and reliable trucking firm that uses enclosed rigs designed solely for the purpose of shipping cars.

I bought my car just last September (2015) and the VS Speedster I bought was built in 2004 and was in very good condition with just over 2400 miles on it. I have found little issues to deal with here and there. My turn signal kept sliding around the steering column so it had to be moved back further down the neck and this has produced an unsightly gap which I need to solve. I had some leaky (paper?) gaskets that needed replacing. My oil cap needs to have the threads re-chased as it has some thread damage and does not screw all the way down. My tail pipe hangs to low and I scrape it as I occasionally bottom out over speed bumps etc, and the end of the tail pipe touches the back bumper causing some discolouration. There is the smell of gasoline each time I fill up as the tank consist of a pipe with a screw on lid and that is it, no rubber gasket to trap smells. I don't want to sound like a complainer, the car is amazing and I would not trade it or sell it for silver or gold but there are always going to be things to deal with so prepare yourself.

When you do take it in to a mechanic find out ahead of time how many hours they might spend on it and what costs may end up being. The first mechanic I went to who was reliable and did a great job ended up charging me $1200 bucks almost all of it (over $900) in labour because he explained a car like this takes time to "look over" and "research". And this guy specializes in older cars, and performance cars like Porsche, BMW and Mercedes. So caution on your mechanic trying to take advantage of you.

The nice thing about these cars is having fun putting your own stamp on them. With a second hand car you can always change and replace items. I replaced the Nardi horn button in my wooden wheel with a Porsche horn button. I got the same guy to make me a really nice mahogany wood shifter knob. A guy in Georgia made me a set of aluminum race pedals. I purchased new boot covers for the shift and brake lever. I put in Coco mats and I found a local wood artisan to make me a nice mahogany brake lever handle grip. I might ask them to make a two piece wooden ring to fill in the gap on my steering column. You can do all sorts of things from changing the decals to adding a chrome fire extinguisher in the passenger seat to putting on fog lights on the front. As far as the engine goes, I have a 1600cc and although I may get passed by every Prius the point is to be seen and that is difficult when you are moving towards Mach 1. Remember these cars weigh in at around 1600lbs so they are light and move along at a good clip even with less that a 2110cc engine.

Food for thought. But good luck and have fun.

There is also some guy in Fresno that does a pretty good job of making used Speedsters nicer than when they were new.  I'm pretty sure he has three of them that he is currently preparing, a black one and a silver one that will be outlaws and a cream one that is the traditional style, which also happens to have originally been owned by Kirk (the owner of Vintage Speedsters) wife Mary.

He doesn't have any pictures of any of them at the moment, because he's still working on them, but it won't be long.  In the meantime, you can watch videos on YouTube of him driving a lot of the ones he has sold in the past.  Just do a YouTube search for Vanatic99 and you'll find them.

C'mon Troy, that sounds like a fantasy to me.

Shameless plugging...

Thank you all for al the thoughts and ideas- I appreciate it! I have a call into Vintage and I'll stop in to see JPS (can't believe how much he's increased the price since I first started looking).  In answer to the question- what took me so long....kids, wife- now ex-wife and now new wife- I think most of you probably get the idea

 

I'll definitely look into used- but I'd really like to get what I want from the beginning, 

Thanks again everyone!

There's definitely something to say for new. I got a very well sorted used car but then I started to add a lot of things to it that could have been added when the car was being built new. With a new car you get what you want but you'll still be sorting it out to get it just right. 

With a used car you may not get everything but it will have definitely been sorted out but it may not have everything you want. Then you addd those things and who knows where it'll stop. 

For me, adding some of those things has been a great experience. It has taught me a lot about the car and I'm not a as scared to make changes to it now. It has also made me a much better mechanic.

The problem with new is that there's a lot you won't learn how until you have some seat time. Most find that it's not for them and sell. Those that stay either modify or buy and build what they really want based on experience. Since you're in CA, your wisest choice is to buy used from Troy Sloan and sell it later if you've had enough or sell and build your dream. That's the real ad to the least amounts of pain.
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Troy has one that coming up for sale that would be a good buy.  I was able to check it out and the previous owner added a lot of stuff to it.  Also, Troy checks them out and sorts out a lot of issues.  Ask him about the black one....

Troy: I want my $5.00 commission if he buys it. JK

Re: buying new vs one from Troy

Troy's car is going to be better. But even if you don't believe that, consider this: JPS and VS get bodies from the same place-- they're interchangeable. JPS has traditionally done a killer job on prep and paint, VS less so.

Regardless-- the fiberglass will shrink for a couple of years as it cures, as the bodies arrive in LA pretty "green". No matter how excellent the paint prep, if the body hasn't been "pre-shrunk", it'll end up wavy.

Troy generally buys his cars after this shrinking is finished. When he strips one down and sends it off for paint, what comes back is a body that is flat and mirror-like-- and will likely stay that way.

For this reason alone, I'd buy one of his 5x before I bought a new one.

FWIW, IM cures their bodies with heat to speed this process along, but if I was buying a new socal speedster, I'd pay for the body and drag it into the desert for a year of sitting in the sun, then take it in for the bodywork. New glass shrinks, and it takes a lot of time or heat to "cure" it.

If you can find a used car in the color you want, I'd buy it. Tom brings up excellent points-- nobody knows what they want until they have one. I thought I wanted AC before I really got into it. Robert's observation that buying new means getting what you want, right out of the chute only works if you know what you want. Unless you've been around a LOT of speedsters... you really don't. You'll end up changing anything you buy.

Wimsey TFX is the best shipping company and is much less expensive from Vancouver to Toronto. 

 

And then there's another bugaboo of buying new from 'the low-priced two'.

You really need to pay more than their 'base' prices to get a decent, reliable drivetrain.

It may not always have been true (maybe as recently as five years ago), but today if you want to be sure of getting reliable power and gears, you should commission an engine and transaxle from independent shops and have them installed in your new car. This will probably add at least $5000 to the cost of one of their 'turnkey' cars.

Others will say that's not necessary, but having gone that route once, I would never buy a 'turnkey' car again from VS or JPS.

I think you could buy a turnkey with confidence from either Beck or IM, but at a substantial premium. The bottom line is that new cars from either VS or JPS aren't as cheap as they seem at first glance.

Again, this is one poor man's opinion - but a man who would be many thousands of dollars less poor if I knew then what I know now.

 

Interesting - a lot (more) to think about. But, sounds like I need to talk to Troy for sure. Troy- can you send me your number and I'll give you a call. Thanks. 

 

If you only drive with top down, windows down and do 60mph you probably won't need AC, but if you have good AC your feet, legs and body are nice and chill even in 95 degree weather  

That sounds like quite the story Sacto.

 

Ray, there's no joy in posting warnings like the one I did.

I think for the most part we're happy with our cars and would like to encourage others to join the party. I just wish someone had posted a similar heads up when I was buying my car.

I understand that many on the forum are personal friends with builders and don't want to ruffle feathers. I think many others bought a VS or JPS more than five years ago when good, cheap parts were more plentiful and had good luck with stock, new builds. And some folks have bought new cars very recently with no problems.

But increasingly, I'm reading about people who have had serious problems like I had. Eventually, I had to have a new engine and transaxle built to put in my brand new car. I don't want to drone on here about it or do any more laundry in public, but if anyone wants particulars, they can send me a private message.

I'd rather tell people that I have a still pretty sparkling VS with 13,000 miles that is a nice performer, drives well, reliably takes me wherever I want to go, and turns heads everywhere. I've never owned a car that is more fun.

It just took some doing getting to this point and I'd like to save the next guy some of that doing.

 

Mitch,

I appreciate your heads-up.  Each of us deals with less-than-satisfactory business experiences in our own way.  I went public with my unacceptable dealings with SAS, but I was criticized by some for doing so.  Not because I was wrong, mind you, or because I wasn't being truthful, but because my criticism might damage the brand, and the present owner might not get as high a price when he sells.  So, just a reminder that not all the guys who act like good ol' boys really are.  

One other thing to consider is the issue of sorting.  All of these cars, including Beck and IM are pretty much hand-built and as such they will not have the consistency of a mass-produced car.  We often consider "hand-built" to imply higher quality but it really means that there will be more variation from car to car.  This variation results in issues that will require correcting, usually by the owner, over the course of some time before the car is fully dialed in.  One of the most important factors then becomes after sale support from the manufacturer.  Both Beck and IM have built reputations based on their customer support and I can attest to it personally.  If you don't want to pay the premium for one of their cars (and still have the occasional sorting issue), a used one from Troy or Alan Merklin (Dr. Clock) is the way to go as their cars have been through most of the sorting process and have had the advantages that Stan described above.

I started to write something about "the emperor's new clothes", but that metaphor just doesn't work here, as it's the clothes that everybody wants. However, real beauty is more than skin deep, and there are a lot of pretty ugly speedster replicas rolling around out there, as Mitch found out.

In '02, I commissioned a new build from JPS. As I have recounted many times on this forum, it was the single most frustrating and disappointing transaction of my life, and I began to learn a lesson I wish somebody had taught me much earlier in life. A man doesn't always get what he pays for, but he always pays for what he gets.

Always

... but we're men, and therefore are easily blinded by a pretty face and a beautiful body. It takes a long, long time for some of us, but once I began to see just how amazing the experience of really driving these cars can be (as opposed to just sitting and looking at them), I moved from somebody slavishly trying to replicate a beautiful icon, and became somebody intent on making this thing the best it could possibly be.

My advice? Buy a car from Allen or Troy and see if it's for you. Figure you're going to need a new engine and/or transaxle someday, because you probably will. When you buy, don't shop price-- look for a reputation you can live with. Don't buy into the doomsday proclamations that an air-cooled flat-4 cannot be an enjoyable conveyance.

You may keep the car forever. But most likely, after a few years and more than a few miles, you'll decide you know what you want (you still won't, really) and swallow really hard and write a big check to IM or Beck. Even up in the higher registers of money there are differences, but hopefully you'll have an awareness of what you are getting and write your check to the guy who shares your philosophical concept of what these cars should be.

Good luck. Forewarned is forearmed.

That's what I meant, but Stan said it better, except with more more verbosity ;-)
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The other thing is this:

The "hand-built" car having issues needing "sorting" has gone from meaning, "every specialty item is unique, and may need a tweak here or there to make perfect", and has come to be a euphemism for "stuff will fall off your car, and your engine will probably make it out of the parking lot (assuming it still has oil)".

When some disappointed buy comes on here and talks about how his car won't go into gear, and we all cluck about "sorting", my eyes roll back in my head. This is not the result of being a "hand built" car. This is the result of flat out not caring what rolls out the overhead door, as long as the check clears.

I feel it's only right to counter that argument with personal testimony. My JPS was a beautiful piece of garbage, flawed down to the bones. My IM may have had a flaw-- but nothing I can remember, and nothing related to the concept or execution of anything that had to do with Henry or his crew. The bones are very, very good, and the finish was flawless.

"Hand built" doesn't mean, "homemade by an amateur", it means "one of a kind". "Sorting" doesn't mean, "my brakes don't work because nobody bled them", it means "my emergency brake needs adjusted slightly".

We need to stop using the terms "hand built" and "sorting" as euphemisms for "absolutely no quality control" or "dangerous".

BWKIRL,

Come to the SOC West Coast Gathering @ SLO in June. You'll have an opportunity to check out cars from most of the builders, if not all.

You'll also be able to have candid conversations about the experiences of ownership with some of the coolest and nicest people on earth. Some of us will be happy to give you a test drive. 

Read about it in the Events section.

Stan's first definition of "sorting" is the one I was using.  If a car's quality is such that the second definition applies, run away.

Terry Nuckels posted:

BWKIRL,

Come to the SOC West Coast Gathering @ SLO in June. You'll have an opportunity to check out cars from most of the builders, if not all.

You'll also be able to have candid conversations about the experiences of ownership with some of the coolest and nicest people on earth. Some of us will be happy to give you a test drive. 

Read about it in the Events section.

That is sage advice from Terry. The West Coasters from the SOC will be gathering June 24, 25, and 26 in San Luis Obispo, CA at the Quality Inn and Suites for a weekend of fun and driving. Join us, see the cars, and ask questions. If there is an empty right seat you could probably even go on the cruise.

Here's the event thread so you can get all the info:

https://www.speedsterowners.com...-coast-cruise-v-2016

The trouble is, we all KNOW who are the better builders and who are the poorer ones. We talk about this a few times each year, especially when someone gets one of those "pre-sorted" cars and has to jump through many hoops (and often, $$$'s) to get to the car they thought they were buying.  Stan is by FAR not the only one having had this problem:  Paul what's-his-name in Baltimore with his poorly assembled Thunder Ranch, Kelly and one other in MD receiving JPS cars with things loose upon delivery - especially that loose steering coupler that was a safety hazard -  people with engine problems, people with transaxle problems and on and on.  Why do you think I created that "New Vehicle Check List" up under Resources?  Because cars being delivered, especially from some west coast builders to buyers on the east coast and in the Mid-West, were delivered in very poor shape because the builder didn't give a damn.  I hand-build stuff all the time and when it's done, it looks like a factory job.  Same goes for Dr. Clock and Troy.  Why?  Because we build something that looks like somebody cared....Somebody who took the time to make sure it was right before sending it out the door.  

This all reflects both ways.  Some (many) of us get sub-par cars delivered, and then this forum starts typing up a storm and pretty soon all of the West Coast builders are painted with the same brush (and some non-west-coasters, too) as builders of poor cars, some deservedly, some maybe not so much.  I think it would be really hard for a new builder to overcome this and I hope Daniel at Seduction does well - if he produces good cars to satisfied customers who get on here and talk about their great experience, we'll all hear about them and talk them up.  I think that's the way it should work.

I got a fantastic deal on a new VS at the bottom of the recession. It came with the Mexicrate 1915. I replaced the transmission within a year (Kirk covered most of the cost). At 7k miles I needed a valve job and the case was leaking like sieve. With additional mods, upgrades, fixes, etc. I am well over $35k. I could have spent that in the first place a MAYBE saved some headaches. Regardless of what you buy, these cars need a lot of sorting and it is ongoing. Sometimes it is self inflicted and sometimes it is not. 

In many ways it is like upgrading a computer. Once you get more speed, you want more, or a 5 speed, or better wheels, or, on and on and on. 

Gentlemen start your checkbooks. 

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Tremont, IL posted:

The other thing is this:

The "hand-built" car having issues needing "sorting" has gone from meaning, "every specialty item is unique, and may need a tweak here or there to make perfect", and has come to be a euphemism for "stuff will fall off your car, and your engine will probably make it out of the parking lot (assuming it still has oil)".

When some disappointed buy comes on here and talks about how his car won't go into gear, and we all cluck about "sorting", my eyes roll back in my head. This is not the result of being a "hand built" car. This is the result of flat out not caring what rolls out the overhead door, as long as the check clears.

I feel it's only right to counter that argument with personal testimony. My JPS was a beautiful piece of garbage, flawed down to the bones. My IM may have had a flaw-- but nothing I can remember, and nothing related to the concept or execution of anything that had to do with Henry or his crew. The bones are very, very good, and the finish was flawless.

"Hand built" doesn't mean, "homemade by an amateur", it means "one of a kind". "Sorting" doesn't mean, "my brakes don't work because nobody bled them", it means "my emergency brake needs adjusted slightly".

We need to stop using the terms "hand built" and "sorting" as euphemisms for "absolutely no quality control" or "dangerous".

Stan, you hit the nail on the head.  There is no excuse for some of the issues or "sorting out" that these cars have.  Its all on the builders quality and moreover on how he rectifies any issues.  A good car needs good parts and quality craftsmanship, especially with any safety issues. 

I've been around the block with these cars and have first hand working on all the brand builders and know and see all the "shortcuts" and as some I guess are acceptable (not in my eyes) others are not.  The efforts that some builder take to save a buck here and there make no sense to me.  DO THE JOB RIGHT, SPEND THE EXTRA 250 BUCKS AND RELAY THE COST TO THE CUSTOMER!!!  I don't know of anyone that will bock at that, as it will save them money in post receiving the car because they won't have to pay to have someone else fix at twice the cost as if it had been done right the first time. Plus the positive or negative experience with the car vise versa. 

These cars rarely live to there potential and most owners think that that is the way a Replica, Hand Built car should drive like.  Well the answer is no.  Not sure how many of you got a chance to ride or drive Derek's or Michael's car after all the "sorting out".  Most everyone reaction was, "Wow, it drives like a real car".   That is the way they should be.  

These cars and the way some are built is a bit of a personal conflict as I get contentment on how can someone do that poor of a job, but on the other hand I get paid to make them right and the pride I feel when the owner tells me the car never felt this good and the look of happiness with a car they can actually drive and enjoy. 

 

"Wow, it drives like a real car".

Exactly right.  They should drive like "real" cars, albeit a bit more immediate and less insulated.  I have a friend with a F5 Cobra replica and we exchanged keys one day.  When he brought mine back he exclaimed "This thing drives like a modern car!"

Yeah, a modern car with no power steering or brakes. But everything should work and work well, period!

DannyP posted:

Yeah, a modern car with no power steering or brakes. But everything should work and work well, period!

Power steering and brakes are insulators.  The replicas weigh less than a bug with bug suspension and should turn and brake easier.  More often than not, if you get a hernia turning the car or your hip falls out of joint pushing on the brakes there is an issue that needs to be addressed.  

Gordon Nichols posted:

I hand-build stuff all the time and when it's done, it looks like a factory job.

Yeah.

See, 99.9% of the time "hand-built" means "better" or at a minimum, "more valuable". A hand-built watch. A hand-built engine. The term implies an artisan, plying his craft, doing something better and with more feeling than any machine would or could. Double checking. Triple checking. Giving whatever it is just one more pass after everybody ("hand-builder" included) thinks it's perfect already.

Look, I'm not that smart, and I miss stuff all the time. I don't have leaks in my piping, and I don't get call-backs- ever. It's not because I'm such a hot-rod pipefitter, it's because I never, ever leave something "good enough". I don't care if it's on the underside of a piece I'm tearing out next week. It needs to look "nuke-plant grade", or it needs to be massaged until it does.

It just really sticks in my craw, this "hand-built" nonsense. Mass production is the wonder of the modern age, but an artisan can approach and exceed the quality level of a mass produced good, given enough time and money.

... and there's the rub. We all think these cars ought to cost $10K, and run like a Casio watch. That's never going to be the case. As a hand-built product, the cost is going to be higher (a LOT higher) than a mass-produced good of the same quality. You think a $10K Breitling keeps better time than my $50 Timex? News flash: it doesn't. What it is, that my Timex will never be, is hand-made and beautiful.

I propose we go for a twofer here:

1) Lets not say, "hand-built" when we mean, "homemade by people who don't care".

2) Let's not beat down the prices guys are asking (and getting) over on the "Classified" forum.

Alternately, we can keep doing this forever.

Stan is right...  

46k "hand built" Speedster.

https://www.facebook.com/media...243369831&type=3

Done perfect?  Only God's Speedster is perfect.  Done as best I could? Yes.

Vintage Motorcars - Alex posted:

Stan is right...  

46k "hand built" Speedster.

https://www.facebook.com/media...243369831&type=3

Done perfect?  Only God's Speedster is perfect.  Done as best I could? Yes.

God drives a Speedster?   I would picture him/her driving an Infinity or maybe a Rolls Silver Cloud. 

Wah Wah Wah...