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A guy just gave me this yesterday. What should I do?
(Heh, heh. Now I get to completely redo my car. Again.)

But holeeeee gee-whiz! A two-liter six for nothing? And I'm supposed to pick a new tranny from the lineup in the second shot. I think I'm going to have to mid-mount this thing.

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  • 911 engine
  • 911 engine and trannies
I don't know if this 2.0 will be a this-year project, since the back half of the car's body uses the engine as its anchor point. That's going to take a little bit of figuring to work around. Nonetheless, the engine is completely free of oil and grease, and has ZERO miles on it since it was new. It's never had oil in it.
It didn't just fall off the turnip truck; I've been eyeballing this thing for a while and it's going to cost me some reciprocal labor, but no money's going to change hands. The gent who had it offered it to me yesterday, saying he was old and feeble and never going to do anything with it, so it was mine if I wanted it -- if I'd help him build a few things around his house. I told him I'd be honored, and the counter-offer was he'd have to work on the engine with me (and he'd have to take the car on sunny days when it was installed. I'll drive it on the rainy and cold days).
Dude's 72 years old, and has been a Porsche mechanic for about fifty years. He used to train people on these engines -- and when they're replaced with newer technology, the outdated ones go to the big block-crusher in the sky. Somehow or other, he got this one handed to him years and years ago, and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since, right next to the transmissions it came with.
What to do, what to do. But he has also told me he'd be happy to give me the manuals to go with it, and he'll teach me about the engine as we freshen it up. My guess is he's as much lonely as anything else, and (clearly) he's a really nice guy. It gives him something to do, it gives me something else to add to the hot rod and it's going to push my completion date to sometime in 2007. I'll ride the car this summer with the Type IV, and we'll take our time with the 2.0 so it gets engineered correctly.
Should be something to see, huh?
Cory,
Are you sure that's a 2.0? It's an MFI engine. If it is a 2.0, then it is a 1969 ONLY 2.0 S or E spec engine. A one year engine if I'm not mistaken.

Any chance you can get an engine number? Be glad to run #'s for you and verify. One year only engines are to SELL to finance less rare but way more hp stupid fun.

Quite a transaxle collection there. The 914/901 is closest to the engine. Real easy if you wig out and go mid-engined to use that one, but you can do that with the other 3 as well (flipped ring/pinion). Frankly, I'd leave it rear engined.

I have it on VERY good authority that the total weight difference between a Fuhrman 547 and a magnesium case early 911 engine is 14 pounds. That's right FOURTEEN. Big freaking deal. Of course, the Fuhrman 547 did weigh quite a bit more than a Type 1... The mag case 911 engines are significantly lighter than the aluminum case ones. Don't have exact numbers, but I've had to help Steve put both a magnesium long block and an aluminum long block in the back of our 4X4 and my back says magnesium is probably 40 pounds lighter...

By the way, the 69 S is 170hp at 6800 rpm - spins like a George W. Bush image consultant. And the throttle response out of a well set up MFI is almost electric. Amazing.

angela
Lottery? Me? No way! Clean living and a steady diet of green leafy veggies. And steak. And four-leaf clovers. And fuzzy but loaded dice. I'm pretty sure I got the horseshoe out of my butt with this one, though.
Angela, the man said it was a two-liter trainer, and I haven't asked him yet when it was made. He did say if I wanted to go fuel-injected that it would be a good engine to do that with, but right now it's got six trumpets sticking up into breather boxes.
I will certainly get an engine number. Will your research bear out that it was only used by training staff and students? That would be worth knowing, although this guy hasn't ever lied to me about anything (as far as I know. He certainly doesn't stand to gain anything by fibbing.).
I'll be in touch.
Not sure if the numbers will show that was a trainer - but I'll ask around. Point is, that it could be QUITE valueable. Don't know if you know this, but 69 was the first year for the long wheelbase cars. A 69 S is one of the most beautiful 911's ever (I love long hoods) and has been appreciating wildly. Many of these cars are now in the hands of investors - and some of those cars have misplaced their original correct engines. And collectors want the RIGHT engine only. These have unique valve sizes. This year had one year only 45/39 on the S engines only. The other engines same year, different sizes. This is the only year, only model that used these valves ever. Big ports too, 36/35 compared to 32/32 on the others of the same year (port size shared with 70-73 2.2 and 2.4 S motors - others were smaller). These heads flat flowed the air.

I do not see the injection pump in this picture - just the lines and stacks. If he has the pump, a good used but built w/in spec pump is something like $2000-$3000 plus. An unfired one whose history can be document as essentially new.... Yowzers....

*oh wait -edit - in the first pic the injection pump is THERE!!*

A most elegent vintage German hot-rod engine. Even if it proves to be "just" an E.

angela
Angela (and everyone else),
I called the man today and he told me that the engine is, indeed, a one-year-only production intended for the 1969 911E. He said he was sorry that it wasn't an "S," but that if it had been an S, I wouldn't have been nearly so lucky.
He said you might have found one of these in the odd 912E or in a shop missing key parts later on in the 70s, since they were only briefly issued and something of a "dog" (his word) compared to later models with increased displacements. He suggests that for a 1,500-lb. car like mine, this will be ideal in terms of both maintenance and reliability, but that I can abuse it from time to time without too much worry.
He talked for more than a few minutes about the organizational management in Germany, and how a parts bin for a 1970 car might contain parts from a 1956 run, if the parts were common, and that engines and transmissions were installed in whatever they were compatable with just to move them out as late as the end of the 60s. He stopped short of saying the alpha-numerics were created to describe what bunch of parts were put together when, but that was the gist of what I understood. He said you'd expect to find a fuel-injected 356 late in the run, with a four cylinder engine in it, and that you might find the same fuel-injected four in a 912E. If you wanted your 912E upgraded, this two-liter might be something you'd ask a Porsche mechanic about as a post-purchase upgrade option -- and the transmissions and so forth made it easily enough done.
I don't know one air-cooled six from another, but I'm going to start doing homework pretty quickly. If he's blowing smoke up my skirt, he's doing a pretty compelling job.
Sounds like he's picking up what you're putting down, though. I'm pretty sure he knows EXACTLY why I asked him for a number, but he trusts me not to do something shady when he's willing to part with that thing for some simple labor and a handshake that I won't sell it to someone for a quick buck.
I think he really wants to put this in my Hoopty. He did say that mid-mounting it was not what he had in mind, and that the extra fifty pounds or so of engine weight (between this thing and the Type IV I already have) was going to be trivial versus all the tubing and fuel weight in the front of the car.
I didn't ask for finite details, but I did ask him for that engine number. He's going to get it for me, and he's going to make sure I have an "adequate" supply of replacement parts. I asked him what that meant, and he said that when I hit about 100,000 miles, I might need a few things. He's going to make sure I have one of every moving part -- and six of several others -- as shop spares.
He estimates the engine to be good for more torque than the 2366, and says it has potential to dyno around 175 horses at 6,200 rpm.
He said he was aware of the rarity of the 911E, and of the mechanical fuel injection system, and that's part of why he's stockpiled the parts he's got. He was saving this for a rainy day project, and apparently the Hoopty is it.
The Type III in the first picture is his, too. The second photo is one I hadn't posted yet; since the car's sitting outside under a cover right now, that's here to keep me motivated. It's been raining like it was Seattle around here lately. Talk about timing for the poor little guy to be stuck outside, huh?

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  • type III cutaway
  • Progress as of 22 June
Cory,
Actually feel better about it being a 911E than an S. It would feel like stealing if it were an S... A 911E for 69 shows 140 @ 6,500 and 129 lbs of torque at 4500 versus the 134 lbs of torque at 5,500 for an S same year.

In otherwords, in daily traffic real world driving, this will feel pretty much like the S except at high RPM where the S really comes alive. It actually makes MORE torque at low end and mid range than the S.

This is a GREAT engine Cory, from a gentleman who knows what it is and likes you enough to let loose of it. You will need a CDI for this engine. If he doesn't have one, let me look around as I might. Definately put in a pertronix but as the distributor is new don't consider it a priority.

The 69 911E has 42/38 valves and 32/32 port diameters. The valves/ports are the same for all 67/68 and 69E making spares a realistic possibility. The valves of course are all available new, but always better to have them the same for several years - increased availability

I agree with his estimate of potential power. If the engine is run enthusiastically but with the good maintenance I'm sure you'll give it, expect 80-100K then a top-end (unleaded fuel...). Longer on the bottom. Watch overheating with magnesium cases. They will sag. With your light car, this engine will run bomb proof forever, sound fabulous and give you more smiles to the miles than most people get their whole life.

Man Cory, every time I look at the Hoopty I get more excited for you. Build on!!!

angela

Angela, I'm pretty sure I'll be asking for helpful advice as this prospect comes to life. For starters, looking at the tubing layout of the Hoopty, would you mid- or rear-mount this engine?
Other valued advice has already landed suggesting that I not put it in the Hoopty at all, but I'm pretty sure that's what the gent intended the donation for. I would hate to hang onto it for some ulterior purpose if he's under the impression that he's making a contribution to that specific car. If take him up on his tutelage and go through with re-sealing it, then I'll want to use it for the Hoopty.
If I don't use it at all, I'm certainly not out flapping for power; that giant T4 will do me just fine. (Ironically, that one was all but given to me, too.)
Decisions, decisions.

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  • engine dr side rear 051006
  • aerial hoopty 041406
  • hoops dead ctr rear vert 041406
Cory - though I am enamoured with the mid-engined design (this is my 3rd mid engine car build), I would only make a speedster rear engined. Though Steve and I frequently deviate wildy from stock in our project builds but we try to follow the original concepts...

A 911 engine rear mounted with an early 901 or 915 is just absolutely "right" for this wild little project. It will give you less fitment issues than reversing the drive train. It will give you less cooling issues than reversing the drive train. Your shift linkage is greatly simplified. And everytime you open the hood you get to look at that big sexy 911 fan... Mmmm.... Good... Plus, if you decide you HATE it, putting a Type IV in is a piece of cake if the 911 was there first. We've done two 912 to 911 conversions (and one 911 back to its original 912 engine) and they are really really easy as long as you grab all the right engine tin and motor mounts. Basically a bolt up, the front (fan side) of the engine just fits a little closer to the rear.

angela
Cory - you should play the lotto!

I agree with Lane and the others on this - WOW - Your car and the work that has been put in, is certainly deserving of this engine!!!

As far as the rarety of that engine, i'm sure plenty of collectors will be around when its time to part with it. But for now!!! figure out which tranny you want to attache to it....WOW
Wow!!!! Make the change. That man is giving you a LOT of money. It would be a shame not to use this.


I have a rebuilt '76 3.0, a rebuilt 2.7 and a 63,000 mile '69 w webers. All of them I came by after large amounts of cash left my hands. The 2.0 and the 2.7 are setting on my floor waiting for me to finish my Ghia /356 hybrid.


Make your car mid engine and you will never think ...if I...could've, would've, should've

This is a once in a lifetime opp.

The only number I could see on the block before we buried it with all the other stuff we moved into the new shop was this 24180. It's stamped "901/00" and "24180" in two different type-faces on the front, below the fan.
All the schmutz visible in the pictures is just sawdust. There isn't any rust on the engine at all. Which is good, because my freaking car is now covered in surface rust, and I've got my hands full with that.

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  • 911E number 070106
  • Hoopty Great Outdoors 070106
  • Hoopty Great Outdoors II 070106
Been away for a couple days. Thanks for all the encouragement, folks. Took some new photos yesterday, since the car and the new engine are now all in the same garage.
Talked to the man who gave it to me again, and ran the idea past Jimmy as a serious consideration; he said we should be able to adapt the project easily since I now have the manual for the engine.
It looks like we're going to be able to do this pretty painlessly, although I'm going to have to use the 911E's engine support bar to hold up the back of the car. This block is longer than my Type IV, so I'll have to shorten the braces that the hatch hinges on, but it should be pretty seamless other than that.
I got the manual for the '69 E, S and T model engines, if anyone needs tech support. I also got the smaller pocket handbooks for specifications through '72, so I should be in good shape all the way around. Tomorrow, supposedly, he's going to have all the specialist tools ready for me to pick up, too, and maybe a set of seals. That'd sure be nice.
I bought my first lottery ticket ever yesterday, too. I lost a buck.

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  • 911E buried 070106
  • 911E 070106
  • manuals 070106
Unsolicited, this thing showed up at the garage yesterday, too. Anybody ever use one of these, and, if so, what are the benefits and detractors?
If I read it correctly, this guy should go right on top of the distributor, and I shouldn't ever have the worry of over-revving the engine past the 5,400 rpm it's marked at.
Any advice?

By the way, engine-donor-man says that when they closed the training center in Culver City, Calif., they literally buried "a whole mess" of engines, transmissions, dynos and other test equipment, tools and replacement parts on-site before they closed the doors for the last time. If anybody lives out that way and wants to file salvage rights, he says it's been a good number of years.
There are supposedly a couple tons of these engines -- just like the one he gave me -- about five feet underground somewhere on the old property there. He said they left some in their crates and just threw others into the same big hole.
Apparently, the same thing is true of Volkswagen; he described the same circumstances as having happened at the plant where they used to make Rabbits. I didn't ask him where that was.
Everything just went into the ground and didn't get surplussed to independents or to dealerships because the technician-trainer equipment couldn't be warrantied. Makes sense to me, but he says the Porsche and VW folks either didn't realize the gold mine of parts they were literally just throwing away, or they knew and just wanted to close their facilities with brutal efficiency.
Might be worth researching, for anyone who lives near Culver City.

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  • Rev limiter 070106
Cory - the early distributor rotors have a built in rev-limiter. Its a little spring do-hickey that operates on centrifical force. Beyond a certain RPM, the spring do-hickey loses contact and the spark cannot travel from the rotar to the contact points on the cap.

The rotor I had in the wretched 2.5 was one of those (did not look like yours). By the way, the 69 S and E have different rotor numbers, maybe they both have this feature and one has a higher redline. Betcha your friend knows!

The numbers for your engine don't seem to be engine numbers. Probably on the case, check bottom side when you have a chance. For your engine, should be 901/09 for an E (901/10 for an S). Second sequence for an E with manual trans - should begin 619 or 629...). But as this as a training engine, hmmm... Could be unique but most likely will fit somewhere in that sequence.

Nutz Cory - your car whose workmanship I've always admired is rapidly turning into one of my favorites and it doesn't even drive yet!!
angela
Thomas, you're right. It's really scary. I looked under the tarp and cover while I had it up, and the chassis is covered with a fine layer of rust in most places, but it looks like barnacles already everywhere we welded. It flaked off pretty easily and the welds are all very solid, but geeez! That was the fastest growth of rust I've ever seen on bare metal.
I'm guessing it was the lack of open space under the car cover's bottom edge, and the humid air having nowhere to go that led to the blanket of rust. It's literally everywhere on the metal. The brake rotors look like hell.

Angela, thanks. I'm pretty happy overall, too. I don't know if you're interested, but he has dozens of binders with technical info in them, from high-end Carreras to 914-4s -- if you know anyone who might want to make him a serious offer. He's an older guy, and not interested in having them around anymore (first photo).

This rust business is a minor setback, since it hasn't gone off to get cleaned and pressed yet. When it gets blasted and coated, it'll be fine wherever it sits -- so the next order of business will be to dismount all the body parts and doohickies once there's enough room in the shop to set them out. I'll manually clean anything I can't powdercoat. There will be plenty more photos, too. I'll be sure to pass any "new" knowledge along.

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  • tech manuals 070106
  • 911E distributor 070106
  • Hoopty Great Outdoors III 070106
that is a marelli dizzy. they stopped making those caps and rotors a long time ago. You will have to replace it with a bosch. if that is a new cap and rotor its worth about $100. a twin cap is worht about $500.
I have the big burgandy book but I am a freak for reading tech info. I would be interested if he wants to sell his books. No, they wont end up on ebay. Like I said I like reading and re-reading and re-reading and.......
BT, I could do that if I had a new body and/or chassis to work with, but I'm kind of stuck. The tonneau is riveted onto the rear body section, and the engine's upper tins will be attached to the underside of the body from the hinge bolts forward on the tubing framework that holds the rear deck in alignment.
The way the tubing was laid out, the chassis sections touch each other at a minimum of three points for each section of tubing, making every segment of the car a crumple zone.
I'd have to start all over again. I already brought the axles and torsion in three inches, too, because there's no place for those fat tires to go in the back of the body; I'd have to adjust all that monkey business at the same time -- and the chassis is welded to it the same way. I've got downriggers, outriggers and sideways riggers ... You can see all that stuff in the pictures.
But I never saw this engine coming, either. This was supposed to be a simple little Type IV conversion. AUUUUUGH!

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  • engine cmpt r frame guide pin 051006
  • battery box placement 051506
  • tonneau up underside holes cut 051706
Cory-

You're in deep water now, man. It's already over your head, so what difference does another 10 ft make?

Your car, as it has evoloved, has reached a point where it is cool beyond any reasonable comparison. Putting in the 911 mill would put it on a whole different level.

I'd do it. Forget the mid-engine idea. Forget lengthening the chassis. Just make it fit, and watch everybody's jaw drop when you flip up the back half of your car, to reveal....

I saw Steve and Angela's spyder at Knotts '05. It was (by far) the coolest spyder I've ever seen. Q: Why? A: One VERY large motor...
Stan, there's no doubt that engine's going in there. I'll weld in a shoehorn if that's what it takes! I'm very happy to have it, and I'm going to make it fit. And thanks for the compliments.
Steve and Angela's gorgeous little twelve-plug-wire-having 911-550 has been very inspirational, and the cause of much debate in the last 48 hours between me and Jim. Jim's excited about doing it quickly and hanging it off the back end, and I'm saying the Type IV will be fantastic for the rest of the summer. I'll tinker with the 911E over the winter months until I know it inside and out, and then I'll make the rear framework all over again if I have to. I probably won't mid-mount it, but I'll have to redo every piece of tin under the rear section of the body.
I'll take a minimum 50 bhp hit by doing it, but I'll be happier than hell to have a TRUE one-off with an essentially new '69 flat six. Someone would have to be out of their fricking head to try to do this with another Speedster. Whacko like Jacko.
I'm glad everyone's still paying attention to my rambling musings, too. There have been more highs and lows with this thing than I ever would have imagined. Right now, I'm on a high caused by the donation of this little gem of an engine. That will last until I take the cover off all the way and really inspect the damage caused by the elements over the last two weeks of outdoor living. Then something else will pick me up again. (If these are the biggest problems in my life, I have nothing to complain about.)
The feedback from everyone here is tremendous, and it makes this crate's having been off the streets for two years a lot easier to bear without throwing in the towel and scrapping it. I could have probably bought, built and gotten tired of three CMCs for the time and money I have wrapped up in this thing.
Ultimately, though, this little beastie still holds sway over my emotions. Heh, heh.
But rest assured, that 911E is going in there. Oh, yes. It's going in. Then I'm going to find out where all those yellow lines on the highway end, one road at a time.
Cory, it sounds like you have decided to leave the 911e as a rear engine? While you certainly don't shrink away from doing serious work, converting to a mid engine lay out would add much work every time you want to do anything with your engine, not to mention the work it would take to re-engineer your car.

I have had 2 Speedsters but decided I had to have a mid -engine, so I went to a Spyder. The car handles much better than either Speedster I owned, but it is a huge pain to work on....I have had the various engines (3 so far) in and out 10 or more times, I have had the transmission (2 so far) in and out 4 or 5 times which of course means pulling the engine first. The Speedsters, I could pull the engines with exhaust in a few minutes by myself. In the Spyder it is a much longer process, and it takes 2 people or some extremely careful work with an engine hoist.

Given your well demonstrated and commendable skills there is no doubt you can readily handle a mid engine. My point is more that after removing and installing the engine multiple times it ceases to be fun....becomes a first class pain.....just setting valve clearances becomes much more difficult....everything is harder to get to, much more stuff in the way....of course some of that is my fault with extra bracing on the chassis and the like...but I notice you like things well braced too....you can see multiple versions as times passed at http://www.pbase.com/tmpusfugit/jims_550_photos as well as a couple of old photos of the 2 Speedy's

Just my thoughts...
Jim, I looked at your photo collection. Looks very well done, and I can see you've had the same decision-making process steps as I have. One thing works, it stays. Something else works for ten minutes and then it's in the way of the next thing. I'm not sure, but I think I have the same remote oil cooler reservior you do, and no place in mind for it to go!
Yours appears to migrate around the engine from time to time, unless I'm interpreting the images wrong. I can identify with that. I'm also curious whether you started with the DTM and are now running the doghouse, or if it was the other way around -- and why ...
I also like your choice of valve covers, as shallow an observation as that is. They're a nice touch on a car whose engine is exposed to the public from time to time.
And the finish work on the Spyder is very nice, too. It doesn't look like white is hiding anything for you like it would for me. My body is trash right now and is going to need a hell of a lot of tweaking to look decent again.

What's the 'Vette panel for, and which car was/is it in? Is that what you based your wiring scheme on?
ahhh, the Vette panel...that really isn't related to anything....other than that was the mess I discovered under the panel on my wife's old Vette when the alarm system died.....It had 4 alarm systems over time, all sort of interconnected by a mad scientist/frustrated ham operator (not me).....there was no hope of troubleshooting what was wrong, so I gutted it to the original wiring harness and reconnected everything as it was originally, and it actually worked on the first try. Anybody need a first generation Lo-Jack? With another half dozen relays and 3 other alarms tossed in?

Anyhow, to your questions regarding the development on the Spyder.... the engine started out with the doghouse and moved to the DTM. It also went from a full flow with remote oil cooler to the DTM with both a 914 cooler as well as the remote and a CB performance dry sump and pump. Without the remote the oil temps would hit 240/250 degrees in 20 miles on just a warm Texas day, so I had to do the remote cooler. The 914 cooler was usless with the DTM. Most recently, I am using the DTM without the 914 oil cooler. I also added the dry sump a couple of years ago, but it is not installed right at the moment while I break in the new engine...too much hassle to try to change oil in the Accusump, the oil tank, the cooler, the oil filter and the 10+ feet of AN10 stainless hoses....3 or 4 times in say 1000 miles... by the way, I like the Accusump a bunch. It is nice to have 60 PSI of oil pressure before the engine begins to turn over.....

What I have learned so far is the under the bonnet temps are too high on the Spyder (generally ambient +35 degrees) to use the 914 attached oil cooler in the DTM. Also, Accusump is well worth the $$$ as start up wear is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced. Also, the "Porsche" valve covers will not clear the Pauter rockers, necessitating the change to the ones you commented on...and even those required some additional machining to use on CE heads with the Pauters, and engine performance drops about 7% with the under hood temps.....I would do well to improve air flow or temp controls in this arrangement. Ceramic coating on the exhaust system is not as effective at reducing the under the hood/bonnet temps as is heat tape. I will be going back to heat tape as soon as I get the exhaust system cleaned up. By the way, the new engine is more than 1" wider exhaust port to exhaust port than the old one.....and more than 2 inches wider across the valve covers. Moved from 2109 to 2332 cc using a pent roof high deck case with the CE heads and deeper valve covers...didn't consider that in the plan...of course the old ceramic coated system won't fit, hence the straight pipes for the moment. It is a bit loud, but not as bad as I expected....until I get it broken in I am not going to get in a dither about making it quiet....

i also like the flat belt fan drive much better, from BMD, and they offer a version for dry sump pumps that clears the AutoCraft dual pump well...as well as the older CB pump. By the way, for break in I am using a 36mm oil pump that delivers a steady 70+ psi, unlike the wimpy more conventional pumps....
Cory,

I'm running a '69 2.0S six cylinder in my Speedster with an S-ratio 901 5-speed and complete 911 front and rear suspension, steering, brakes, etc. and Fuchs wheels (rear 8x16, front 7x16). Running is actually not the right word. The car is a rolling chassis waiting for electricals and interior. If you're intersted, I can tell you what I went through to get it in.

Bob
Since this thread got dredged up with Robert's very nice offer of help, I'm going to stick a few photos up of why I've been OOC on the SOC for a couple weeks.

This is my son, Morgan, who just flew home to Montana after a two-week stay at Casa del Dad. He wanted to go for a ride in the Hoopty, but alas ... So I brought him to work with me one day (I was off all 14 days, but thought this would be REALLY cool ...) and drove him around in the fire truck for a while.

I only get him a couple weeks a year. I didn't even look at the Internet while he was here. He's home now, so I'm back and the Hoopty will now be finished with velocity.

Woo-Hoo!

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  • Morgan I 081906
  • Morgan II 081906
  • Morgan III 081906
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