Pulling the Webers...Again!

While doing the post Carlisle clean and tune up, I decided to check out the passenger side carb as the idle screw on #3 cyl. has always liked to run a full turn further out than the others.....The snail indicates every thing is working properly, but I hear a distinct "pop", in the carb throat, each time the cylinder fires. Valves are correctly set.....I was experiencing stumble and spitting on acceleration at Carlisle....Going to try a massive tear down/blow out....Any thoughts appreciated.....

Leon, It did wonders for me. Just buy the kit with all the o-ringgs & gaskets. Do a good cleaning. After I did my Dells, it was like I had fuel injection. It ran smoother than it ever did. A good manual handy doesn't hurt matters either.

~WB

Leon, I cleaned mine while still on the engine. Just pulled the carb tops and had at it. Much easier on a Spyder! At the time, I didn't have any carb to manifold gaskets, but now I do, just in case.

Rebuild kits ordered......Probably get here late next week. (Holiday weekend,and recovery.) Lane I hope those kits you got at the raffle were worth it....The prices have about doubled since those were bought...... ;-)

Got her done........The biggest problem seems to have been a loose accelerator pump dump tube, on the very cylinder I was having mixture screw problems with. Cylinder still likes a little more volume than the others. ( Go figure ) Still have a slight stumble from idle, on hard acceleration.....Otherwise, its as good as it has ever been.....Any thoughts????

All right Jim - waiting... starts w/ a "K".... I'm just saying..

Just installed the CSP bellcrank throttle linkage. Not sure whether the throttle sticking on the left carb is solved or not as I haven't driven the car yet. The throttle seems a LOT more sensitive, with shorter travel and yet lighter action. I'll know for sure after a test drive in a day or so. I took that carb off and couldn't see any problem, but there may be some stickiness still in it. I cleaned it well and lubed it when it was off. We'll see.

Gordon - You asked if the bellcrank had a bearing at the top as well as the bottom. It has ball bearings at both ends and appears very well made. The whole thing is stainless steel.

Leon,
Still sounds like maybe an accelerator pump issue if it stumbles only on hard throttle (especially since you found one loose). You can eyeball your pump jet volumes by looking down each of the throats while blipping the throttle. If one has noticeably less fuel spray, that could be your problem.

If it stumbles off idle during easy acceleration, needing to feather the throttle to get it going, I'd guess your Idle is too lean & you might need to size up idle jets. (I just went through this dance...)

...uh, I forgot what I was going to type...

Leon - FWIW I fabricated a primitive (but effective) tool to use when fine-tuning the accelerator pumps. Many of you may already know this, or possibly there is a more advance method of doing this, but this worked well, back when I used to turn a wrench-or-two on my P-cars;

Tool;
1) Get an eye-dropper
2) Remove rubber squeeze top
3) Plug pointy end of dropper by heating with a match and squeeze end shut (to catch fuel in dropper)
4) Wrap one end of a small wire (about 8 inches long) around top of dropper.

Method (with engine off and air cleaners removed);
1) Determine the proper accelerator pump volume output of carbureter for your engine application (Samba or 356 forums)
1) Position the eye-dropper directly beneath the accelerator jet using the small wire wrapped on the upper end of the dropper.
2) Activate accelerator pump lever to fully depressed position (full throttle)
3) Note volume of fuel in eye-dropper
4) Repeat process on other carbureter and note volume of that pump.
5) Adjust accelerator travel on pump lever(s) until both pump volumes match.

OR

Buy some Kadrons, set them once and forget about it!

Jim, on some of the other VW forums Kadrons get a bit of a bad rap, but I had a set on my 1970 beetle, back in the mid 70s, and I put 60,000 miles on them with only two adjustments....that's it! No linkage problems and no clogged air jets. I only wish my 44 Webers had been as reliable.

Bill L. ..........I just installed a set of 065 idle jets,and it seems to have reduced the problem noticeably........The 060s I had in the carbs were a step up from the 055s CB Perf. installed originally........O70s would probably cure the problem totally, but the "Black Smoke" issue gets out of hand......Thanks for the heads up......And thanks to everyone else for the time and trouble....... "I'm just sayin......" ;-)

Jim Youz da man ..I'll make one of these up for the tool box..tnx! ~Alan

No, Alan, YOUZ da man! I mean gramps!

Just when you think you know a guy ... Dang, Jim!
Chiecken Pot Peyeeeeedropper ...

Leon, I don't think I'll be needing that extra carb of yours. I think I may (knock wood) have (cross fingers) fixed it. I removed the offending carb - laughably easy with the new bellcrank linkage - and inspected the hidden side of the throttle shaft. It was kinda gunky, so I removed as much hardware as I could and noticed that he return spring had actually worn into the carb body a bit. I cleaned everything up and lubed lightly with silicon before reassembly. I also left the nut one flat looser. That seems to have fixed it. Just to be safe, I put the original return springs that hook to the air filters back on, although they may be superfluous now. Everything seems much better, but only a test drive will tell. Right now it's just too damn hot outside!

UPDATE: Problem solved. Wish I'd fixed it at Carlisle.

I really like the CSP bellcrank carb linkage......never will I put up with hexbar blues again.....

Good to hear you "Got'er Done!!!" Lane.......

Little mothers got me again.......The engine idles fine.....Blip the throttle, you've got instant throttle response.....Accelerate through 1st...2nd....3rd....(not hard).....Go to 4th and gently roll the throttle in from about 2500rpm.....Hey what's all this nose dive crap???? Increase the throttle and it starts to spit back.....How come????

Cleaned and re cleaned everything....Squirters working fine.....

I replaced the idle jets with 065s and will change back to the 060s, but don't think this is the problem.....

I also tweaked the float levels to recommended spec.....

Going to waste another day chasing this , so any thoughts welcome......

I can see why Dels are so popular....

If you go into 4th and continue to accelerate at the same level you did in the lower gears, does it still do it?

A lot of things come to mind primarily that you're running out of fuel. Recheck the float levels and your fuel supply system.

Also, did you mess with the accelerator pumps?

Hmmm... since it starts at 2500 on easy acceleration, this is about where the main jets start to take over. I'd check them & check the entire emulsion tube assy while you're at it.

bloody hell, what a PIA

Here's another thought, do you have an SVDA dizzy? got good vacuum?

Lane, yes it does......Larry, I set the floats to match each other with an inverted 12mm height...Do you have a recommended setting???? The "manual", rebuild sheet and Weber's web site have 3 different settings to chose from.....

The car had issues at Carlisle, and I thought I had it licked when I found the loose pump shooter. It does acts as if its starving for fuel......Like I said, the accel. pump feeds look good....Steady stream from all four.......

I'm going to yank the tops tomorrow and see where the dead elephant is........Wish me luck....( You KNOW I'm going to NEED it. )

Thanks for the quick response fellows.....Wish any or all of you were here for a beer an wrench bending session........ I'm just sayin. ;-)

Bill......Dizzy is currently Bosch 009...... Less than 5000 miles.

Bill......Dizzy is currently Bosch 009...... Less than 5000 miles. Magnaspark module....

I don't have a recommended setting, I haven't had to adjust a float in a long time. Usually, "if it ain't broke, I won't fix it"

Check your fuel pump, filters, screens, etc etc. Are you sure you set the floats correctly and didn't invert them when bending the tabs? If you lowered the floats then you're getting less fuel in the bowls, If you raise the floats you'll get more fuel.

Take a real hard look at the fuel pump if it's a mechanical. If it's an electric then also run about 3 or 4 gallons of fuel through the pump into a 5 gallon fuel container and make sure it's running all the time.

Bill has you on the right track. It is NOT the idle jets because it idles fine. Your problem in in the size of your main jets and or air correctors. I'm betting main jet size. It is running out of fuel. Leave the idle jets alone. All they do is control fuel at idle through about 1500 max.

Focus Grasshopper.......;-)

Main and air correction jets were of the proper size prior to this event, so it would seem to be either float level or fuel delivery........I'll recheck the floats and eleminate them as the cause.....then chase the potential delivery problem......

Thanks all......SAILOR LANGUAGE 102 starts this afternoon......Graduation upon conclusion of assigned task.......( very, very long course.)........ I'm just sayin' "#%&*, +~3%>?..... 8-(

check how much squirt you have with the small vile, it should be equal in both,and also around 50 cc with two strokes or what does the manuel say, bill

Pirate Leon! Arrrrrggh!!

You seem to be methodically going down through the list of "could be"'s, so while you've got the back end open, take a close look at your fuel delivery hose(s) to see if anywhere along the path it sits relatively close to a heat source. I've seen some of these hoses, especially the generic ones made in who-knows-where, shrink over time due to heat nearby and constrict the flow of fuel, almost like you've got a dirty fuel filter.

Another thing to look for is a kink in any metal fuel line between the back and the front. Sometimes we bend them without noticing when working on something else and, bingo......Less fuel.

Just my 2 cents.

gn

Oh! and have you re-checked the timing? Sounds like it could be a tad retarded.

Yeah, if the mains were all dialed in before, they

you have to *start* by adjusting the floats.

then get on to jetting / timing. This topic has been beaten to death on thesamba.com in the performance section:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewforum.php?f=12

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?search_keywords=IDF+floats&search_forum=12

it actually very easy/fast to adjust the floats - especially if you have relatively new gaskets (can reuse them).

i was surprised at how much crud came out of my IDF's when i rebuilt them. start to finish (with carbs already removed) was less than a hour on both carbs. easy-peazy

OK GUYS......Sit back and POP those beers........The floats were off according to the CB Perf. Manual, so I set them up by their spec.....went for a test ride.....Basicly, NO CHANGE.....

OK, what else have I done......AHA!!!!!....I installed 065 idle jets to shoot at another problem...( see above ).....Replaced with original 060s.....and reset mixture screws and idle screws.......NIGHT AND DAY!!!!! I still need to play with this area, but at least I'm back in the game.......May install the 055s that came in the original installation, and play with that.....

Thanks to all, and I'll eat a bar of Dial to cleanse the fowl/foul(?) mouth.......

Hopefully this is behind me for a while.....

Awesome. It sure is easy to start chasing your tail with these buggers, but when they work great they're pretty sweet. Must be even sweeter in a Spyder.

You'll be holding a clinic by time this is over, eh?

Leon---how did you finally make out with the webers? I have a large supply of various jets you are welcome to if you need 'em.

I think of my old Solex Kadrons---not touched in 3 years and ran perfect.

Something to be said for simplicity.

Thx for the offer Jack.....I seem to have lucked out again and gotten it running again.... ;-)

Good job, Leon. Glad to hear it!

While we're on the subject of Webers - I bought a syncronometer to adjust mine (44 IDF's), and encountered a weird problem. The car runs great, but lately the idle hasn't been as smooth as it once was. While tweaking the idle screws, I noticed that the screws for both barrels nearest to the rear of the car (left and right sides) have a distinct stumble point, but neither of the two forward screws had any effect on idle performance. All the way in or all the way out, the idle didn't change a bit no matter what the setting. Does this mean that both of those idle jets are clogged? Any ideas?