Question: Oil- PennGrade1 & Synthetic Blends

When brazing beef, I prefer grapeseed oil.

I like Valvoline VR1. I use 20w50(I'm going to switch to 10W40 I think) in my Spyder for summertime. It runs 180-190, I have an oil cooler bypass valve at 190 and the fan comes on at 190 as well.

I use Shell Rotella T5 10W30 in my Formula Vee. It's semi-synthetic. It's cheap and gets changed often, about every other weekend. It runs 190 on cool days and gets up to 210-220 on HOT days at the end of a race. 240 is when we start to worry about breakdown.

- Disclaimer: I'm not advocating anything, just relating what I do and why. I'm not interested in a war, fight, skirmish, or disagreement. You do you. -

I'm going to come straight out and say that for me -- the "viscosity war" was over in 1975. I believe in multi-viscosity oils, full stop. You may stop reading here if you disagree.

I'm a Mobil1 fanboy. I run M1 in everything -- work trucks, the new Toddler-Killing Monster Truck, Jeanie's van, my H/D, everything. Synthetic oil makes sense -- in harsh use, it resists breakdown. It's just a better base-stock than conventional oil. The proof is in the pudding -- my engines run forever with very minimal maintenance. I change oil on a 10,000 mi rotation (5000 in the new truck, for a while anyhow), not on the recommended schedule, and never because the car computer tells me to.

Mobil1 has meant "quality" for decades. I run the engine manufacturer's recommended viscosity.

In my ACVW engines, I've been pretty fanatical about zinc and phosphate additives (more is more) because I've flattened 3 camshafts now. I ran Brad Penn 20W-50 in my T1 VWs for years, then switched to V1 20W-50, simply because it's more available. Then I read a post on another forum regarding the zinc in European formula Mobil1 15W50 -- it's something like 1500 ppm, which is adequate.

... and I started thinking about those flat camshafts. If zinc itself was the do-all and end-all, then why did those cams ever go flat? They had great oil, chock full of zinc and phosphate.

I'm coming to believe that while sacrificial metals (zinc and phosphate) are important additives for a flat-tappet engine, that the quality of the base-stock oil in shear is probably more so. Mobil1 is phenomenal in shear. As such, I've been using Mobil1 European Formula 15W50 for a couple of years.

Regarding viscosity, I think there needs to be a good oil film on the bearings all the time. I don't care what old timers believe regarding 5 psi oil pressure at idle being "fine", I want at least 10- 15 psi in the bearings all the time and 60+ if I'm spinning over 4500 RPM. In an air-cooled engine with heat-soak and an unstable crankcase which expands when heated -- that means heavier oil than lots of talking heads want to advocate. The guys running 10w30 are not driving all day in the summer -- they're driving down to C&C on Saturday AM, then driving home.

Do what you want, I really don't care. This is what I do. I'm not selling anything, advocating for anything, and am not concerned with what you like, don't like, or are indifferent to. I do not have a shrine set up in my garage to the petroleum engineers of the 1930s, so I don't care what they would have done or thought. Oil is one of those things that has advanced greatly. Moving along with it is not a bad idea.

YMMV

I'm 75 years old and been doing things like tune-ups and oil changes since I was 12 in 1962, working on my Dad's fleet of school buses so I guess I qualify as one of the dying breed of "Old School Mechanics" from the 1950s - 1980s.

My Dad bought Kendall Oil in 50 gallon drums for his fleet of school buses and used 10W-30 year round, but buses don't see high revs, just a lot of torque.  When I did an oil change on my car or my parent's, I used the same stuff (hey - It was kinda free, right?)  We never had an oil-related issue with any of our engines.

Some decades ago, Kendall changed their name to Brad Penn and that is what I have been using in my Speedster since day one on the road.  I believe it is a blended oil, but don't have one in front of me to read the label.  Always used 10W-40 and about 15 years ago I tried using Brad Penn 20W-50 to be an "in" guy, even though the Bentley VW manual doesn't recommend it (unless you're driving in Death Valley, I guess).  

I drove around for an hour, remembering my route of both back roads and one 5 mile interstate blast at the end and noted my engine temperature with a dip-stick thermometer along the route.  When I got home I drained all of the 20W-50 and filled it up with 10W-40 (also Brad Penn) and immediately re-drove the route.  The engine temp with the thinner oil sat between 5 and 8 degrees LOWER with the 10W-40 than with the thicker oil at all of the same places where I stopped and checked.  Figuring everything that lowered AC engine temp was a good thing, I've been running 10W-40 in Summer ever since, and two years ago started running thinner 10W-30 in Winter because I drive up until the first road salt appears.

I have tried full synthetics and blended oils in other applications (mostly snowmobiles) and found, without a lot of evidence, that, on older engines, Mobile 1 and other thinner oils tend to weep a little around the engine seams while the Penn 10W-40 doesn't (or at least, not as much) but that could be just me and YMMV.

Brad Penn got replaced, by name only, 5 years ago, now going by Penn Grade, but I think @chines1 found that they've tweaked the additive formula, so maybe it's not quite as slippery as it once was?  IIRC, Carey's recommendation, based on info from Charles Navarro at LN Engineering, was to go to Valvoline VR1 20W-50, like a lot of people use on here, but that's a little thick for me, as an "old school mechanic", so I'll be looking for the same in 10W-40 if I can find it.  When last I looked for the thinner version it wasn't available - Time to do another search - @DannyP do you have a source?

That's all I've got.  I don't care what oil you use, as long as you're comfortable with your results.  If, like @MusbJim you buy your oil at Walmart at the lowest price and are happy with it, that's great.  It's a big tent.

Time to go back to grumpy old me....

I use Driven DT50 as my first choice.  I'm seeing some client paperwork for "other" engine builders (meaning not Pat Downs) recommending  Driven GP-1 instead of DT50 lately also.  Randy (Beck) uses VR1 Racing in all of his aircooleds, and always has, seemingly without issue, but I have no oil analysis to back that up.  I have several clients who chose to use VR1 also since it is generally easier to get compared to hunting down Driven oils.  I don't believe any of the above are available in lighter weights, but when I winter (or cold morning) test drive I just warm up for longer.

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@Lfepardo posted:

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...he used his preferred oil PennGrade1 30W ( dark green color oil… I imagine it will be hard to see any color change as oil gets mucked up)...

Actually, just the opposite. The green color starts to fade as the oil is used, gradually turning to the same black color that any oil gets when it's time to change. I change every 3000 miles. By 1500, it's sort of greenish black. By 3000, only a slight tinge of green remains.

I've only had the one engine in this car (well, after the first 2500 miles, anyway). That now has 50,000 miles on it and has never been opened. It still sounds and pulls pretty much like new, so I'm assuming my cams are still round (well OK, still cam-shaped). No smoke out the pipes, yet.

My 'VW old timer', who has been building and rebuilding VW engines for over 30 years set me up with Brad Penn from day one, and like you Luis, I wasn't about to question his advice. We started with 20W-50, but shifted to 10W-40 some years back. And you can order it by the case on Amazon, so it's easily available anywhere the gray trucks roll.

But frankly, I don't think the specific brand or grade makes much of a difference at all. My opinion (and after some time with these cars, we all have one) is that how you drive the car makes a much bigger difference in how long these engines will go between rebuilds.

The engine builder told me at delivery that the redline was 6200. But I've never had it anywhere close to that. At 5000, it's screaming and (to my ears anyway) way out of its comfort zone. So, I've made 5000 my limit and usually shift by 4500. One of the advantages of the five-speed is that you can stay in the fun part of the torque curve without going beyond that. And if you're just cruising, you can drive all day without even breaking 4000. In the upper three gears, I drop about 800 rpm per shift.

For me, the most useful gauge is the temp gauge. You can learn a lot about what conditions stress the engine by keeping a close eye on that and watching what makes the needle start to move. After a while, you get a good feel for how ambient temperature, grade, gear choice, and rev range stress the engine.

These cars are different things to different folks. Some like to hoon more than others. These engines will do that. You can go to the redline on every shift or cruise all day at 85 and they will endure for quite some time. But in the end, metal is metal, oil is oil, and the laws of physics are pretty much unbendable. You pays for your thrills.

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Thank you for the useful information.  Much much appreciated.  I feel I always learn so much by hearing what everyone does, and why they do it.  Makes me want to experiment.

i’m a creature of habit,  enjoy driving the speedy like I have nowhere to be ( the sound and feel just makes me smile), and like to try new things…. So this may be the spring/summer of testing various oils, again… it’s been 10yrs.

so far, this engine is ~42k miles old  (likely more, as  I ran one spring/summer without a working speedometer) and it still runs like the day it rolled out the truck with 12 miles… well, it sounds and pulls better after some new carbs, exhaust, and regular maintenance/tunning,.   It’s been a great journey.   I just look to keep it running healthy as it enters middle age and now it’s back in the “get to now a new  old timer” stage of life.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts and experiences. Much appreciated.

when I get around to experimenting with oils this summer and my results I will post them… just to add my findings to tie knowledge base. ;-)   I will start collecting the various recommended oils/grades … experimenting is fun.

Luis

“Clean oil is better than dirty oil, dirty oil is better than no oil.” Me

I played around with oil, a lot, when I had my Spyder, mostly as a band aid for the low oil pressure it had when warm. I ran just about everything in it from straight grade Rotella (30W and 40W) to M1 Euro Formula, to good ole Castrol GTX 20W-50 (which was THE oil when I was a kid) As a big fan of Motul, I was really disappointed that the semi-synth 5100 10W-40 that I had leftover from my BMW F650 days made the motor sound/feel like a box of rocks.*

I never did any oil analysis on the Spyder (I do on all my other cars) but in the end, the oil I settled on, than made the engine run smoothest and maintain the best oil pressure when hot, was plain ole Dino Pennsoil 10W-40** from the corner O’PepZone store.

*Oddly enough, the exact opposite was true with the trans. After trying a few different brands of gear lube, from Swepco to Castrol/Valvoline\Pensoil, the one I hit on, and stayed with, was Motul’s non-synth Gear 300 Gearbox lube. Made the trans shift like butter.

** Which was the oil my Alfa mechanic in denver swore by.

When I looked for Gear 300 I only found synthetic.

When Jake Raby was still making type 1 engines he recommended (insisted, really) on Brad Penn 20-50. This was mandatory under pain of voiding the warranty. I ran mine on 10-40 and 20-50 Penn grade. No problem with either but I had to order it. Valvoline seems to work just as well.

I have read that you should use the lowest viscosity that still gives you good oil pressure.

I get good pressure with 10W30 VR1.

@edsnova posted:

When Jake Raby was still making type 1 engines he recommended (insisted, really) on Brad Penn 20-50. This was mandatory under pain of voiding the warranty. I ran mine on 10-40 and 20-50 Penn grade. No problem with either but I had to order it. Valvoline seems to work just as well.

This was the case for many years with both Jake and LN Engineering, but then Brad Penn changed formulas and Jake/LN started working with Joe Gibbs and their Gibb's Driven brand oil, then a little later the Gibbs name was dropped (I don't know the story there) and it just became Driven.  I can't say I've seen a Jake specific report regarding Driven oil, but Charles from LN and Jake work very closely together so I assume his recommendation currently is the same as Charles' (LN)

@Michael McKelvey posted:

When I looked for Gear 300 I only found synthetic.

I apologize Michael. I use three different types in my cars. I can never keep them straight. Gearbox is what I used in the Spyder. Gear300 is what I use in the 968 transaxle. (Or the Smart  I have to look it up every time)

Since we have pounded this into the ground, let's jump to debate best tires or if Blazecut works.

I heard (it was here that I heard it) that Brad Penn was the one to use.  The thing about zinc, and old school valve and cam and bearing business.  The green stuff.  So thats been the deal.  Builder guy said I was to use 10W30, so that's what I use.  Seems to run fine ... although, a recent very hot day for a few hours on the highway, I got to some pretty high temps, and an oil light flicker at idle - 900 or so rpm.  Was not real happy about that -- made me start to think about an external oil cooler.  And also maybe 20W-50 oil --?? Still pondering that one.  Interesting side note:  When I was searching for a local supplier for the Brad Penn, I found a speed shop that would sell me some.  Went there and spoke to the guy, asked him why he liked it.  He said the main reason for using it was the color, as that made it easier to see where it was leaking from his race engines.  So there is another useless factoid.

Also, as to gear oil, I heard, also here, that Motul Gearbox was the one.  So that's what went in to my rebuilt tranny.

If you haven't the Bentley manual says to change the gear oil after 300 miles in a new or rebuilt gearbox. Which is why I use el-cheapo oil from Tractor Supply, then switch to whatever your fancy. I like Motul, Valvoline, and Amsoil. I didn't like Redline.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

I have read that you should use the lowest viscosity that still gives you good oil pressure.

I get good pressure with 10W30 VR1.

As long as that is a HOT reading, yeah, I agree.

It's funny, VR1 is only available in 10W30, 20W50, or straight weights. I used to use Valvoline 4-stroke Motorcycle oil in 10W40 in my Spyder. No complaints.

@Panhandle Bob How about those Mets???

Love you DannyP! The Dell's you rebuilt for me are still perfect!

@Panhandle Bob posted:

Since we have pounded this into the ground, let's jump to debate best tires or if Blazecut works.

"BlazeCut^®(TM) woulda' saved it!!"

@DannyP posted:

As long as that is a HOT reading, yeah, I agree.

I'm gonna' go out on a limb and say that if anybody can hold 15 psi at idle with 10W30 when it's hot outside (like, REALLY hot -- summer in Barstow hot), you're doing something different than I am.

I like the Motul gear oil I put in my Speedster a few years back better than the Swepco I ran for 10 years, but nothing is going to make it sound like a Honda box.   

When my light started flickering at 900rpm, I bought a VDO gauge and put it on my sender. My local guru* told me the light should be 3-5 psi. Which it was. Turned my idle up to 1100 and it only flickered when it was really hot. Oddly, it was consistent whether I was running 40W Rotella or 10W-30 Miller.

*He also told me not to worry about it. Said anything over 5psi at idle was fine. He said it will either blow up, or it won’t. Not worth worrying until it does.

@dlearl476 posted:

My local guru* told me the light should be 3-5 psi. Which it was. Turned my idle up to 1100 and it only flickered when it was really hot. Oddly, it was consistent whether I was running 40W Rotella or 10W-30 Miller.

*He also told me not to worry about it. Said anything over 5psi at idle was fine. He said it will either blow up, or it won’t. Not worth worrying until it does.

Wow. It's not worth worrying about until it blows up? That's a novel approach.

Everybody does things their own way, and this is the common oldtimer "folklore and common practice" approach. I don't think anybody truly believes it's ideal, they just don't know what to do, short of redesigning the oil system in Herr Doktor Porsche's little science fair experiment.

But losing the oil film in the bearings is losing the oil film in the bearings, whether the engine is in an F1 racer or a garbage truck. If 3 psi was "normal" then every engine design would carry no oil film at idle.

@Stan Galat posted:

Regarding viscosity, I think there needs to be a good oil film on the bearings all the time. I don't care what old timers believe regarding 5 psi oil pressure at idle being "fine", I want at least 10- 15 psi in the bearings all the times and 60+ if I'm spinning over 4500 RPM. In an air-cooled engine with heat-soak and an unstable crankcase which expands when heated -- that means heavier oil than lots of talking heads want to advocate. The guys running 10w30 are not driving all day in the summer -- they're driving down to C&C on Saturday AM, then driving home.

I also keep forgetting that very few of you run an oil pressure gauge.

I can't imagine trying to guess what's happening without a real gauge. It's the ONE THING THAT REALLY MATTERS, so "guessing and hoping" aren't strategies i'm willing to employ. We slavishly watch the oil temperature, and hope for the best on oil pressure?

Again, and to all -- you do you. As for me and my house -- oil pressure matters, and in my mind 3-5 psi is not enough, ever. The brand, etc, is nowhere near as important as keeping oil pressure in the bearings -- all other considerations are secondary to me.