Questions about upcoming Speedster rental on Turo....

From the dash I'd say it looks like a Vintage, although the age, and thus the builder (Kirk Duncan or Greg Leach) can't be determined.  The engine could be anything from a 1500 to 2300 VW or even a Subaru.

To add to what Lane said above, without seeing the engine compartment we have no way of knowing what engine is powering the speedster. I will say in my experience there is a night and day difference between a Speedster replica powered by a VW engine and one powered by well sorted and engineered Subaru engine with a transaxle that has gearing to match the Subaru power band. This could be a Rancho Pro Suby 4 speed or the Subaru 5 speed transaxle. I had a VW powered Speedster replica that I had converted to Suby power by Special Edition, and it made it into a entirely different and better driving car. Some like the feel and authenticity of an air-cooled engine but it felt like a toy car verses a real sports car that was immensely more enjoyable to drive. If I were in the market for a Speedster replica and had the time money and patience, I would drive one with VW Type1 power and a well-done Subaru powered car to help in making the decision.  I commend you for renting a one first. Most of us didn't do that and many were unhappy with the car they bought or had built for them. At this point a good Speedster replica is a substantial investment. Not the $9K I paid for a Turnkey CMC back in the early 2000's.  Good luck with you research mission.  I recommend you ask the owner of the Speedster you are renting for the engine make and size and any other details about that particular build. There is a big difference in quality and performance and resale price from builder to builder. The lowest being Classic Motor Carriage or Fiberfab and the highest being Intermeccanica, Vintage and the Special Edition built Becks. The late model Beck Speedster are and some of the Intermeccanica cars are built on purpose-built frames and upgraded suspensions as compared to being built on a shortened VW Beetle Chassis or Pan.

That's a Kirk built Vintage Speedster from more than 10 years ago based on the interior.
-=theron

@Jimmy V. posted:

To add to what Lane said above, without seeing the engine compartment we have no way of knowing what engine is powering the speedster. I will say in my experience there is a night and day difference between a Speedster replica powered by a VW engine and one powered by well sorted and engineered Subaru engine with a transaxle that has gearing to match the Subaru power band. This could be a Rancho Pro Suby 4 speed or the Subaru 5 speed transaxle. I had a VW powered Speedster replica that I had converted to Suby power by Special Edition, and it made it into a entirely different and better driving car. Some like the feel and authenticity of an air-cooled engine but it felt like a toy car verses a real sports car that was immensely more enjoyable to drive. If I were in the market for a Speedster replica and had the time money and patience, I would drive one with VW Type1 power and a well-done Subaru powered car to help in making the decision.  I commend you for renting a one first. Most of us didn't do that and many were unhappy with the car they bought or had built for them. At this point a good Speedster replica is a substantial investment. Not the $9K I paid for a Turnkey CMC back in the early 2000's.  Good luck with you research mission.  I recommend you ask the owner of the Speedster you are renting for the engine make and size and any other details about that particular build. There is a big difference in quality and performance and resale price from builder to builder. The lowest being Classic Motor Carriage or Fiberfab and the highest being Intermeccanica, Vintage and the Special Edition built Becks. The late model Beck Speedster are and some of the Intermeccanica cars are built on purpose-built frames and upgraded suspensions as compared to being built on a shortened VW Beetle Chassis or Pan.

Thanks so much for your detailed response. In regards to what builder I'm going to go with if I do decide to pull the trigger, I have narrowed it down to VIntage and Beck, and I have already decided to go with the more powerful Subaru engine, though I'm not sure if Vintage offer that as an option? Beck look like the more affordable option, though I will obviously be speaking to both to see what the final cost would be for the spec I want. As for driving a Subaru powered car, assuming the one I'm renting the on Saturday isn't that, I have no idea how I'd go about getting my hands on one to drive. Any advice on that would be appreciated.

Are you sure that there's actually a car available. With Truro, you paid in advance, I've used the service twice with no issues but this could be suspicious. Did it have a lot of reviews?

@Theron posted:

That's a Kirk built Vintage Speedster from more than 10 years ago based on the interior.
-=theron

Yeah? What about the interior gives it away for you?

@WNGD posted:

Are you sure that there's actually a car available. With Truro, you paid in advance, I've used the service twice with no issues but this could be suspicious. Did it have a lot of reviews?

The car has since been disabled but the booking is still going ahead. I didn't pay in advance, I don't pay till tomorrow. Doesn't have a lot of trips but has several positive reviews. I'm in contact with him literally as we speak. All good.

Agree a VS.  The chrome trim under dash covering, no padded dash eyebrows above that trim, squared off door trim for side curtains, and their signature luggage rack.  Best guess on engine is 1915 cc - as that is cheapest (most popular) performance upgrade (94 mm vs 85.5 pistons and leaves but otherwise stock).  Could be 1600 cc (60 hp) or anything.

CMC/FF were sold as DIY so build quality is upon the builder.  Probably the most widely sold Speedster kit up to 1992.

@WOLFGANG posted:

Agree a VS.  The chrome trim under dash covering, no padded dash eyebrows above that trim, squared off door trim for side curtains, and their signature luggage rack.  Best guess on engine is 1915 cc - as that is cheapest (most popular) performance upgrade (94 mm vs 85.5 pistons and leaves but otherwise stock).  Could be 1600 cc (60 hp) or anything.

CMC/FF were sold as DIY so build quality is upon the builder.  Probably the most widely sold Speedster kit up to 1992.

What's CMC/FF?

Classic Motor Carriages and Fiber Fab.

Owner just sent me a photo of the engine bay...

What are we looking at here?

@Michael McKelvey posted:

Classic Motor Carriages and Fiber Fab.

TY!

The curly red wire confirms it is a Vintage.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

The curly red wire confirms it is a Vintage.

So it's going to be a 1600CC or 1900CC engine with either 60 or (?) HP?

I guess I’m lost.

Everything about this car says “Kirk and Mary Vintage Speedster” with the usual VS 1600/1915 “impossible to tell without taking it apart” VW T1. That’s really as close as you’re going to get.

We know, because everybody who’s answering has been here forever. In the case of Theron, he started this site more than 25 years ago. He knows what he’s looking at.

Also: the Vintage Speedster you will be driving has almost nothing to do with Vintage Motor Cars, which happens to be located in the same building.

Different owner, different process, different engines.

Good luck with the research.

Screams Vintage!

Just go drive it and then make up your mind.

@Stan Galat posted:

I guess I’m lost.

Everything about this car says “Kirk and Mary Vintage Speedster” with the usual VS 1600/1915 “impossible to tell without taking it apart” VW T1. That’s really as close as you’re going to get.

We know, because everybody who’s answering has been here forever. In the case of Theron, he started this site more than 25 years ago. He knows what he’s looking at.

Also: the Vintage Speedster you will be driving has almost nothing to do with Vintage Motor Cars, which happens to be located in the same building.

Different owner, different process, different engines.

Good luck with the research.

Yep thanks I've been doing a lot of reading here and if I'm not mistaken Vintage Motorcars are located here in Southern California. Vintage Speedsters used to be but Kirk ended up selling the business and it moved to Arizona before being run into the ground by some cop and are now out of business? That a pretty accurate summation of events?

@Panhandle Bob posted:

Screams Vintage!

Just go drive it and then make up your mind.

Will do. Extremely excited.

It looks like a VS from when Kirk and Mary Duncan owned and operated the business.

The engine size may be written on the front of the fan shroud (the side facing the front of the car/firewall) if it has not been repainted or replaced since it was delivered.   

@Mozza posted:

That a pretty accurate summation of events?

Exactly. Go get ‘em, Mozza.

@Mozza posted:

The car has since been disabled but the booking is still going ahead. I didn't pay in advance, I don't pay till tomorrow. Doesn't have a lot of trips but has several positive reviews. I'm in contact with him literally as we speak. All good.

Excellent, I hope yoiu have a blast!

The speedster was built prior to 2013 by Vintage Speedsters (Kirk and Mary era).  Prior to 2013, Vintage Speedsters (VS) used to use a curly-q alternator wire.  In addition, they had a single centralized pocket on each door card.  2013 and beyond, VS moved to a map pocket covering the entire lower section of the door card; and stopped using the curly-q wire.

This car looks well maintained.  It does have 4-lug wheels, as opposed to 5-lug (given the age we could tell by counting the ovals in the wheels--8, which is 4 lug, as opposed to 10, which is 5-lug).  Newer wheels can do 8 or 10 openings with 4-lug.

Here is where some assumptions come.  VS did a lot of 1600cc and 1915cc engines.  In addition, they did disc brakes up front and drums in back, or 4-wheel disc.

This car is a minimum of 14 years old.  It is well taken care of, by the photos, but still 14+ years old.  Which can either be good (or bad).  If you're purchasing a car from someone on this forum, chances are they love their speedster or Spyder more than one of their children.  The slightest thing off has been chased down and repaired, to the point where a 14 y/o speedster (or Spyder) may be better than one delivered new.  Or a 14 y/o car may have rattles and such that will drive you nuts, because the owner drives it 50 miles a year and couldn't care less.

That said, there will be some commonalities.  Such as driving position.  Whether a 14 y/o VS or a new Vintage Motorcar or a beck, you will pretty much be sitting in a similar position as it relates to the street and the cars surrounding you.  BECK Owners, are the footwells the same as VMC and VS?

Also, overall driving experience will be similar in that these are raw cars.  The wind will hit your face the same way in a VS, Beck or VMC.  The engine noise will be similar.  The comfort (or lack of comfort) will be very similar.

There are a number of fine tuning differences between VS, VMC and Beck.  Quality differences too.  But looking at it 50,000 feet up, this rental should provide you a good impression of whether or not you want to pursue buying one.

@Mozza posted:

Will do. Extremely excited.

This is exactly what I did before I placed the order for my speedster. I rented a speedster while in Hawaii and drove it for 12 hours all over the Island. Heat, rain, cold, wind, noise, comfort or lack of it all played a part in my decision and how to order it. I did some things on my build that make my driving experience more to my liking. I had a builder that was willing to make some changes to my build and I am grateful for that. I love my speedster and will be back to driving the wheels off of it soon. Good luck on your experience !!

If you get serious about Subaru power, be advised that it can come mid engine or rear mount.  Be sure to actually see and drive one to understand what all that difference means.  While the mid engine makes a whole lot of sense if your taking it near the limit in a turn, it will take up a lot of cabin space and could provide heat and noise.  All the mid engine lash-ups I've seen and ridden in were not really my cup of tea.  356s are supposed to have the engine in the rear.  One man's opinion.

@Kevin - Bay Area posted:

The speedster was built prior to 2013 by Vintage Speedsters (Kirk and Mary era).  Prior to 2013, Vintage Speedsters (VS) used to use a curly-q alternator wire.  In addition, they had a single centralized pocket on each door card.  2013 and beyond, VS moved to a map pocket covering the entire lower section of the door card; and stopped using the curly-q wire.

This car looks well maintained.  It does have 4-lug wheels, as opposed to 5-lug (given the age we could tell by counting the ovals in the wheels--8, which is 4 lug, as opposed to 10, which is 5-lug).  Newer wheels can do 8 or 10 openings with 4-lug.

Here is where some assumptions come.  VS did a lot of 1600cc and 1915cc engines.  In addition, they did disc brakes up front and drums in back, or 4-wheel disc.

This car is a minimum of 14 years old.  It is well taken care of, by the photos, but still 14+ years old.  Which can either be good (or bad).  If you're purchasing a car from someone on this forum, chances are they love their speedster or Spyder more than one of their children.  The slightest thing off has been chased down and repaired, to the point where a 14 y/o speedster (or Spyder) may be better than one delivered new.  Or a 14 y/o car may have rattles and such that will drive you nuts, because the owner drives it 50 miles a year and couldn't care less.

That said, there will be some commonalities.  Such as driving position.  Whether a 14 y/o VS or a new Vintage Motorcar or a beck, you will pretty much be sitting in a similar position as it relates to the street and the cars surrounding you.  BECK Owners, are the footwells the same as VMC and VS?

Also, overall driving experience will be similar in that these are raw cars.  The wind will hit your face the same way in a VS, Beck or VMC.  The engine noise will be similar.  The comfort (or lack of comfort) will be very similar.

There are a number of fine tuning differences between VS, VMC and Beck.  Quality differences too.  But looking at it 50,000 feet up, this rental should provide you a good impression of whether or not you want to pursue buying one.

Thanks so much for this. If I do decide to buy it will certainly be from new as I will have to have it EXACTLY as I want it. Colour, options, etc.

@Butcher Boy posted:

This is exactly what I did before I placed the order for my speedster. I rented a speedster while in Hawaii and drove it for 12 hours all over the Island. Heat, rain, cold, wind, noise, comfort or lack of it all played a part in my decision and how to order it. I did some things on my build that make my driving experience more to my liking. I had a builder that was willing to make some changes to my build and I am grateful for that. I love my speedster and will be back to driving the wheels off of it soon. Good luck on your experience !!

Great minds...:-)

@El Frazoo posted:

If you get serious about Subaru power, be advised that it can come mid engine or rear mount.  Be sure to actually see and drive one to understand what all that difference means.  While the mid engine makes a whole lot of sense if your taking it near the limit in a turn, it will take up a lot of cabin space and could provide heat and noise.  All the mid engine lash-ups I've seen and ridden in were not really my cup of tea.  356s are supposed to have the engine in the rear.  One man's opinion.

I would tend to agree, I've driven several 911s.

Beck has always impressed me with the amount of floor space available due to their tube frame (even the center tunnel is lower/less intrusive).  A VW pan limits both foot and seat space.  A pan-based car limits you to an 18" (to maybe 20") wide seat due to tunnel and side sills.  However using an ancient VW pan often makes it easier to register often as the year of its VW pan - which can exempt smog testing requirements and allow for antique plates.

Check out Troy's website to see the various VS body styles from the classic to ultra-wide body cars.

Speedsters |https://speedsters.troysloan.com/

Rear vs mid-engine?  For about 11 years I drove a Porsche 914 which was mid-engine.  I did normal mods to it - anti-sway bars (F&R), Koni struts, alloy wheels with Michelin XAS radials.  It handled predictably at any speed - no tail-wagging engine pendulum.

Beck only builds Speedster with a rear engine, regardless of whether it is VW or Subaru..  Their Coupe is available mid-engined, but not the Speedster.  Becks have always had their own chassis rather than a VW pan, but the latest iteration includes a modern coil-over suspension front and rear with rack and pinion steering.  Very nicely done.

@Lane Anderson and others covered it well.  The dash cover, door panels and interior are typical older Kirk built VS.
-=theron

The seats are a huge tell for me.

Kirk just couldn't bring himself to do a Speedster seat the way Porsche had done it. He seemed to have a need to pleat them or later to put that perpendicular seam in the base about 8" back from the nose.

Why, I do not know -- but there it is.

@Mozza is see you live in Calabasas.  I’m in Thousand Oaks.  I drive a 3 year old Vintage MC that I ordered new 4 years ago.  There are a handful of us in these parts (Moorpark to Balboa Lake and further south) who get together once in a while for a meet and/or a drive.  

This Sunday a few of us are likely to meet at Pierce College cars and coffee, 7:00 to 10:00 (but many are gone by 9:00).  I’m 50/50 on attending.  @Techdave with his black VMC speedster, @jncspyder with his black JPS Suby coupe will be there.  So will @SlikkNikk with his green Vintage (?) speedster.  O e or two more are possible.  

A week from Saturday is cars and coffee at the Westlake Promenade.  A few of us might be there as well.  8:00 to 10:00.

Come say howdy if you can, we’d be glad to offer advice and help you spend your money.

Jon

@Jon T posted:

@Mozza is see you live in Calabasas.  I’m in Thousand Oaks.  I drive a 3 year old Vintage MC that I ordered new 4 years ago.  There are a handful of us in these parts (Moorpark to Balboa Lake and further south) who get together once in a while for a meet and/or a drive.  

This Sunday a few of us are likely to meet at Pierce College cars and coffee, 7:00 to 10:00 (but many are gone by 9:00).  I’m 50/50 on attending.  @Techdave with his black VMC speedster, @jncspyder with his black JPS Suby coupe will be there.  So will @SlikkNikk with his green Vintage (?) speedster.  O e or two more are possible.  

A week from Saturday is cars and coffee at the Westlake Promenade.  A few of us might be there as well.  8:00 to 10:00.

Come say howdy if you can, we’d be glad to offer advice and help you spend your money.

Jon

Oh wow! That sounds awesome! This Sunday is far more likely for me as:

A: I'll have the Speedster as opposed to my 23 Accord Hybrid(lol).

B: Next Saturday I will likely be working.

I hope to see you Sunday and thanks for reaching out.

Jim and I will be there early to grab a spot. There is usually a great turnout and an opportunity to meet new friends.

@Techdave posted:

Jim and I will be there early to grab a spot. There is usually a great turnout and an opportunity to meet new friends.

Which, by the way, is one of the best reasons to have one of these cars.  The number of lifelong friends you will make and the number of fun experiences you will have is uncountable.

"... have driven 911s"  Listen closely:  Not. The. Same. a 356, whether original or VW replica will feature 1940s and 1950s technology.  But you are doing the right thing: test drive, hang with current owners, ping this club for opinions, of which there will be very many.  Go with a reputable builder, of which there may be three.  Visit that builder at his shop, face to face.  And having it bulit to order is the right way to go, although some here bought used to see what they were getting in to, then had one built to spec once they knew exactly what they wanted.  Others with wrenching skills bought kits and made it themselves.

Note:  There are what I would call 911 356 Speedster replicas.  These would have the 356 FG body and interiors, gauges, etc, but feature purpose-built frame and all 911 running gear: suspension, brakes, steering, trans, engine.  Such builds are very very nice and work really well, and obviously depend on a 911 donor.  Intermechnica built quite a few of these, and they are sweet.  IM not around any more, and i would suppose Beck and Vintage could manage the same.  Very pricey way to go, but a truly exceptional ride when done right.

@Mozza my mistake, CountyLine C&C at the Westlake Promenade is this Saturday, not next Saturday.  8:00 to 10:00.

If by chance you pick up the rental on Friday and your Saturday morning is free, you should should come.  I will be there, as will @Colorjockey who until recently owned a Silver Vintage speedster.  He sold it and ordered a new speedster from Vintage MC that should be finished later this year.   It will be a bit chilly each morning (mid 40s I think) and it might be a bit foggy.  

Dress in layers, bring a towel, and attend both C&Cs this weekend.  If you are still smiling on Monday you will have your answer.

PM me if you have other ideas about how to meet this weekend.  One or two of us my be up for lunch.  

Jon

Hi Jon, definitely won't be able to do Saturday as I definitely won't be picking up the car till 9am Saturday morning. In Bakersfield...lol

Sunday at Pierce will be my only opportunity I'm afraid, and that will all depend on what wifey and I get up to on Saturday night. Nothing crazy planned as of yet, so my current leaning is to get up early and head down, either avec or sans wife.

Fair enough.  Hopefully I’ll get to Pierce on Sunday, but we can always arrange to meet another day.  

A round trip ride from Bakersfield to Calabasas is quite a haul.

Wear driving shoes if you have them, or whatever shoes you have that leave the smallest footprint.  The pedals are close to each other and your toes may be obstructed from above. Bring ear plugs, extended wind buffeting at freeway speeds can be annoying.  If wifey is going with you, just know that cabin noise will be loud so conversations won’t be easy.  Test the horn before you get going and drive defensively.  Make sure your cell phone is charged.   Drive defensively.   Wear a hat that fits snugly, and maybe bring a backup.  And drive defensively.  Good luck!