Questions, re; Ceramic Coating

I think Black is going to hold up best??? Are you sure you don't want the hole thing as black?? If I were doing another VW engine I would keep the entire system black. This is just my personal preference based on durablility and I like the way it looks.

Steve, that is my leaning right now. I am undecided on the tip though. I think the black puts a little stealth on all the exhaust. And, from a pure visual artsy sort of way, I want the eyes to focus on the entire car from the rear angles and not entirely on the flash underneath.... thus only the tip being chrome. (using the 3" ? barrel tip that Henry uses and appears to be on the end of GBs.) I think Henry will do an excellent job of tucking the modified turn from the normal corner exhaust tip, to the center valance and out. And the black will help in that effort. (I think).

The engine tin? I am going all black except the doghouse and it will be the correct silver. So that will be my small bit of color. The Filters will be K&Ns, and I am guessing the tops & bottoms are CBs, along with their linkage.

Ceramic coating is very thin and will not affect temps, etc., in any measurable way.

However, ceramic coated slip-joints in an exhaust system will fit tighter and tend to melt/weld themselves together which can make any future disassembly difficult. This can be remedied by lightly sanding the IDs and ODs after coating and assembling with anti-seize compound.

Now there is a tip for my files George. Thank you.

There are various colours avaliable in ceramic coating, each has a different heat retention value. They do a very effective job of retaining the heat within the exhaust system. There are some coatings which are designed to have the opposite effect and aid in heat dispersion (I think the black finish does this, much coarser finish that the common silver satin)
The process of application involves baking at +500 deg C so I wouldn't expect it to be effected by exhaust heat once installed.
The coatings withstand +1300F so "melting" or "welding" shouldn't be a problem, but the slip joint will be slightly tighter so use a good quality hi temp anti seize on the joint.

I need some information, some of it is gee whiz and the other may apply to my current build. Your posts on this topic are welcomed.

Background: I am having ceramic coating applied to the entire system on the IM Henry is building for me. The advantgaes of no rusting and improved appearance are readily apparant. Some things are not so apparent:

First the gee-whizz informational Qs. Does Ceramic Coating an exhaust system/headers enhance or have an adverse effect on Head Temps? Does it reduce the outside temps of nearby equipment such Oil Filters and Oil Cooler Lines? Is there any articles or practical knowledge out on if the coating helps or hurts the flow of exhaust gases? Now, these are pure, "gee whiz, I wonder......" Questions.

My next Q is for direct application on my build. Does the color of the coating (Silver vs. Gloss Back) effect any of the issues brought up in the first Qs. ? I have a choice of coating the entire system either way. The tip section will be silver. I am considering asking Henry to go with the black except for the final section that exits center rear valance. My final question here is in the pratical use of the color of coating. Which color maintains it's finish longer? (Stains, water boils, gloss, etc.)

Thank you for your thoughts on this subject. Jim

Not to contradict GB here, but I've had my exhaust apart numerous times since delivery and have had no problems with the coating fusing. I would do as he suggested to be safe as it won't show!

Speaking of show... I got the silver and it looked great out of the box, but it is showing some wear now. I was told its looks would rival chrome, that was over-stated. I was told it does a lot of temp protection, but, eh... my running temps (now) all seem to fit the expectations of that builder-dude, what's his name?

If I were doing it over, all the intestinal shit would be matte black, collectors (muffler) matte black and probably a matte black exit pipe.
But then again, I'm the guy who doesnt like to wash a car, even when it is going to an event!

I think the quality custom exhaust application like I bought and you are designing, deserves the best finish available for protection & preservation...

I had mine done a dark gun metal grey and it has worked out quite well. The dark colours don

Jim,

This a little off subject but wondering if you are going to have Henry install a 3rd brake light on the caboose of your new car? I recieved my LED strip the other day and debating where to put it for maximum visibility.

Bruce, "The Eagle Point Guy"

This info is helpful guys. Thanks, and keep it coming. I kind of like the full black exhaust look and easy care of the system. I am also think it may fit with the rear look with the Red. Look at my folder and tell me what you think! (Good to see ya on here BG!) The slip joint hints are now in my files. Man, this is the best part of the SOC.

Gee Bruce... this list keeps growing! ;-)

Let me tell you about this week. I saw the big Hella horns.. check. I thought about wiring in an alarm... check. I'm looking at cocomats... check. I saw a great deal on a portable/clip on radar detector... check. On E-bay there was this dark red leather Porsche Key Fob... check. On E-bay there was ................... and ............. and ...............

I am adding the light to my list. :-)

Jim

I'm just about done....hopefully!!! Bought my Blaupunkt radio on ebay, and my fog lights and bought my Blaupunkt speakers and Christopher badge and Mobil Pegasus, Hella Dual Supertone horns, Mesh style rock guards, NLA oval speaker grills all this week. Now I just have to get the radio refurbished and order my Terk Commander Satellite Radio, and decide which clock I want and I should be done.

The rest if up to Steve!!!

I just got my "Excellence" today. Check out the outlaw speedster, with the third brake light mounted in the licence plate light frame. WOW!

Stan,

The license plate mount was one option I was thinking about. What page is the photo on? I'll go down to the Barnes and Noble and check it out! Is it mounted in the frame or on it?

Bruce

Steve , you will really enjoy that Commander satellite radio. The variety of programs and music selections is phenomenal. If you play it thru an XM ready receiver you will get much better fidelity. TOM

The satellite receiver will be hooked in to my aux input in the radio....this is the best I can do, but I hope that is the same as what you mean. I won't need or use the FM modulator at all.

Jim, bear in mind that Tiger (Manuel) at A-1 muffler is now making the "Sidewinder" exhaust in stainless steel (304?) for $850, which is about what my ceramic coated steel system cost.

Bruce- the light is "in" the frame- very cool.

George- I had mine made this summer, and stainless wasn't presented as an option. When did Tiger start making them? I'd have gladly spent an extra $200 for the stainless.

I have a Delphi XM receiver in my truck that is hooked up to the aux RCA inputs on my Pioneer head unit. The Delphi has a built in FM modulator, so before I could secure the proprietary Pioneer cable to hook up the RCA inputs from the Delphi, I ran it via the FM modulator.

After switching to RCA from FM, the $33(!!!!) I spent for the cable was completely worth it. It was completely night and day for sound quality, not that the FM modulator was bad at all to begin with.

GB Wrote:
> Ceramic coating is very thin and will not affect temps, etc., in any measurable way.

I'm not sure if I agree with this. I know a few guys who have had lots of parts ceramic coated (turbine housings, headers, various internals, etc) and it's produced a measureable difference in oil temperature and exhaust temperature. Granted, these were applications that were running something north of 225HP/Liter, which we're obviously not going to see anytime soon in a Speedster (even Paul's!).

However, even in a Speedster, I think it can make a noticeable difference in under-hood temps if reducing those is your goal, especially if used in conjunction with exhaust wrap tape.

As for temperatures, my EGT gauge in my car indicates anywhere from 1300-1550F in the exhaust manifold during highway cruises, depending on the terrain. This drops about 3-400 degrees when measured about a foot further down the exhaust pipe, and cools significantly the further you go down the pipe, and the tips are usually very cool. If I was going to do it, I'd also choose black for the majority of the piping, and keep only the tip chrome. That way, if the black discolors or you scratch it on anything, it's easier to repair than it would be to match any chrome you'd have under there.

There was a test article in one of the VW mags about a year ago on the benefits of ceramic coatings on engine temps. After their testing the conclusion was that ceramic coatings did help. I'll see if I can find what issue that was in for those who have access to back issues.

Black engine parts help keep the engine cooler. Chrome is bad for engine parts (valve covers, etc).
Ron

Thanks for the input everyone. Ron, I am pretty sure a black coating is the way to go. There are several pratical reasons and I also like a little stealth look. The ability to touch it up easier seems like a real plus. Ron, I'll be looking for that article too. Let me know if you find it. Thanks

On the Sidewinder System by Tiger..... can someone throw up a pic of it installed. Can it be modified for a center exit. How about real heater boxes to match a 1 5/8s system? (I will call A-1 Monday after I chat with Henry.) Can you get to the Valve Covers and adjust the valves with the system intact, or at least a minimal drop of a section?

Jim

Jim,

I just spoke with Tiger last friday....He does make the "center exit" merged header which is about like everyone else's. The "Sidewinder " is the same merged header ( made in either mild steel, or stainless) but instead of a straight out the back "center exit, the whole collection of pipes make a right turn and axit pointing to the passenger side of the car. His system also includes either a wrap around system that puts a muffler on each side, and wraps around the front of the motor, or a single hidden muffler behind the passenger tire. The mild steel merged header (sidewinder) with no coating, bare steel is $250.00, ceramic coated it is $300.00. That does not include a muffler system, when you add two mufflers and the plumbing you get closer to $500.00 plus. And of course stainless is mucho dolares more!!!!!!!


Gclarke "The Vacaville Guy"

Jim,

there' also a picture of an A1 sidewinder in the SOC photo's under "DavesD". This one shows a single muffler fabricated through a single ended muffler. I'm ordering an A1 to duplicate this system with some modifications..


Gclarke "The Vacaville Guy"

For those of you who have no problems disassembling a ceramic coated system, consider yourselves lucky - I know of two that had to be cut off with a torch.

Tiger only recently began to offer the systems in stainless steel.

Jim, look at the pic in my files section (georgeb) for a good shot of the center-exit "Sidewinder" taken from underneath my car.

Jim,

I was contemplating ceramic coating, but decided against it.
First the cost, and second, if you scratch in on the installation or scrape it while driving it kind of defeats the whole purpose of the rust protection, as (I don't think) you can touch it up.

I opted for Black Velvet paint -$16.00/pint, applied with a Preval sprayer kit.
To prep it for painting - dress the system with a scotchbrite pad, then wipe it down twice with lacquer thinner, hang it up with coat hangers - apply one coat, wait 24 hours, and apply a second coat.
Black Velvet needs to be thinned 10% - you can use naptha to thin.

I used a can of the high temp 1600f exhaust paint in black. It worked really good and looked nice.. The advantage was that if I scratched it I could grab the can and hit it with the paint and you couldn't even tell???? If I had it to do over again I would look in to the exhaust wrap???

Jim, As you know, I worked a long time on my exhaust system. I'm very pleased with the way it looks and especially the way it sounds. However, I don't believe I've ever seen a nicer exhaust system than the one on Scott's car. I don't know if it will fit on my car, but I know it will fit on yours. I've look at all the systems that are out there now that exit in the center and they are great, but when I looked at Scott's I was hooked. The only change I would make is to use the 4" round Magnaflows like mine instead of the oval style.I think it may hide them more, and have a little more agressive sound, which is not always embrassed by most people, but makes me smile. Just thought I'd chime in on this one.

Eddie

This is a great discussion and I am learning a bunch here.

I used the paint on the bulk of my CSP system on Justin's (now) VS Speedster. And the idea of maintaining the slip joints is a good one, especially on Ceramic systems. I would guess that it would be smart to pull it apart and do some work on the slip joints before installing the system if you Ceramic Coat (?)

Stainless Steel sounds good.

Eddie. I have swapped notes with Scott but have lost the mail on his final exhaust set up. I'll write him... but what can you tell me about it now?

Thanks guys and guysettes!

Jim as in Bob

Jim, I think Tiger's sidewinder is primo. I'll probably go that way next. But Scott's system exits the back of the car on an angle upwards with a big tube, then turns and exits with a large oval tip that just lifts my skirt!

I know this because I drove behind him many miles during the SOT this fall. It is beautiful. I'll try to find the pictures I took of it, but I'm sure Henry has some.

Cheers Eddie

I am looking for a link and/or tel # to Tiger & A-1.

tigerperformance@aol.com

714-836-7201

You'll never regret it!

ceramic coating acts like an insulator and helps to insulate the header from the heat in the exhaust. It turn more heat leaves the tail pipe instead of being soaked up by the engine. On some V8's ive worked on it was necessary for me to wrap ac lines or use spark plug boots with heat sheilds since the heat comming off the header would melt everything in site. As soon as i switched to a coated header the underhood temps dropped drastically.

Article in Aug 2003 VWTrends.

Argh! I opted for the dual muffler style that Eddie has and have painted myself nicely into a corner---at least for now. Kymco (LA) made me a beautiful 1.5 in. ceramic coated THing header and provided me with coated J pipes for a very reasonable $280.
I found some highly polished Magnaflow 4 inch mufflers to mate to them at $100 each. However I stil need the pipe that comes out of the header so that the muffs can be attached. ANd that is the rub. I am in EUgene Oregon and am having no luck finding a competent shop who can fab me the pipes I need. (I f it ain't for a 350 Chevy they aint ever done it) One shop tried to talk me in to a nice glass pack! So I have close to $500 worht of hardware with no way to make it work. Henry tells me SS Headers makes the pipe however I can't get anyone on the phone (closed for vacation???) and the suspense is killing me. I may have to drag the speeder to Portland or Seattle to get the work done. ANy thoghts.
My two cents. I am with Eddie. I want some sound! I hardly ever play any tunes=. I like to hear the motor and I opted not to go with Tigers sytem cause he told me it was so quiet yoiu can't hear any exhaust sound---just the the normal engine sounds. Ach Du lieber! Iff I wanted quiet I would drive Grannies Buick.

Ralph,

I'm glad you got your Kymco 1-1/2" Thing header- I watied over 6 months for one, and finally gave up. Two weeks after I ordered the A1 sidewinder, they came back into stock, but it was too late for me. I too was concerned about teh lack of decent fab shops in my neck of the woods (cornfields), but I'd bet the guys that are good on 350 Chevies are fine on VWs too.

BTW, my A1 exhaust is none too quiet. I'm OK with the sound, but Tiger greatly overestimated how quiet the finished product would be on my system. I don't have the dual muffler set-up, but the standard single muffler is plenty loud enough for me.

Anybody know what Tiger's using for mufflers on his "super-quiet" system?

I have Berg's dual quiet pack, and it does a nice job around town but is a bit loud for long trips. I wouldn't mind having another pair of super-quiet mufflers I could put on for those longer rides, even if I sacrificed a bit of performance. My system isn't ceramic coated or plated or anything, so making up the connector pipes isn't too bad - Chris could do it with his MIG welder, easy.

Thanks, gn

GN, I'll let you know. I am calling him this week.

Eddie/Stan:
I had to order the THing header from Kymco and only waited 3 weeks, and it is beautiful to look at. My Magnaflows have some gorgeous tips so Brad at Black Forest Restorations suggested cutting an additional hole in the car body and have the tips come out like the 356 Carrera. I like teh idea.
I am glad I am not the only one who feels they are as they say in the Black FOrest-"the last village before the border" It just scares me to have this neat polished hardware and someone talking about how "I could give it a try..." Kind of like having a resident med student doing brain surgery on you.
Right now the headers are in place and I am rapping around wiht what in the olden days we use to call a "Snuff or Not". Just a plate over the collector with some holes in it.
WHen I was a kid we used to run glass packs which after 6 mos were straight thrus. After the CHP would ticket us, you'd take a bunch of steel wool, shove it up the pipes with a broom handle and get the ticket written off. Using that logic I thought a little steel wooll in the collector would keep things quieter. After insertting just two bunches I started the car and headed down the hill. When I tried to get up the first hill---nada. I had to walk home, get my wrenches and remove the offending material. SO I can't drive the car without offending many ears and drawing a lot of attention so I will be driving the pictures that so many of you so generously posted around to the muffler shops and sseing if anyone doesn't scratch their head.