R&R Oil Cooler Seals - Fan Shroud

Honest to God, it is far easier to drop the engine.

 

Takes about an hour to get it out, another hour to put it back.  Very easy to do if you borrow someone's motorcycle jack.

 

If you don't pull the engine, You'll spend several hours messing with the fan shroud to find the almost impossible attitude that everything has to be at to get it out, PLUS you'll end up pulling the linkage and both manifold/carb combos before you get it out because you'll have a bunch of interference between the oil cooler, shroud, alternator and its pedastle and no room to maneuver it around.

I believe someone here has done it, Grant, and I've mocked up the engine in the compartment in my car a couple (few?) times, and iIrc there's enough room to pull the shroud off and reinstall. Watch out for the thermostat rod (if your car has a thermostat) and don't forget the generator/alternator strap. You will need to disconnect the battery, unhook the wires to the gen or alternator, the gas line(s) if they are connected to the shroud, and don't forget the coil wires and accelerator cable. Have I forgotten anything? Al

 

And what Gordon said- it is easier to just pull the engine and do the work on the floor. But if you're determined....

 

another PS- Now that I think of it, you'll probably end up disconnecting the carb linkage, and to undo the nut that's on the underside of the oil cooler mount you may need to remove the left carb/manifold assembly...

ALB and Gordon, thank you both for he advice and input.  I have dropped VW engines before when I had a squareback, and many times in my earlier 911.  Both engines had a pretty low fan shroud so I really didn't have to get the rear of the car too far off the ground, and my jack stands could hit the height that I needed. 

 

Do you think I can get the clearance needed to get the engine out from under the car with jack stands having a max 18in. length ?

 

I guess worse case is that I maybe there is not enough height to get total clearance to move the engine away from the car, but now I have all of the clearance needed to work on the engine on the floor under the car.

 

Thanks, Grant

With a deep sump on the engine you're going to need 28 or 30" clearance to drag the thing from under the car, and that's with the engine on the ground; add the floor jack (4? 6"?) to that measurement.

 

And Grant- just call me Al (come on- you know the tune!).

Thanks Al.

 

I think that I will make this a more comprehensive project and dropl the engine.  I have a number of items to check out while the engine is out, possible leaking push rod tubes, and a throw-out bearing that is starting to make some noise.  The engine has never been out since I bought the car so this will be a good opportunity for me to give it a physical so to speak.  Mostly just want to get the oil drips under control. 

 

Tonight I will go by the local coin op car wash to clean up the engine bottom and then start the process.

 

Thanks, Grant

I wish I was closer. I would be glad to help you out. I have a 8,000 square foot euorpean auto repair shop. With 4 lifts, If we did the work after hours a few nice cigars and maybe a bottle of 12 years scotch. would cover the labor

 Loosen the right rear wheel, car needs to be set level on 4 jack stains, remove the wheel, disassemble the components to get the motor ready to come out, set a floor jack centered on the motor case, pull it out and lower it, slide the motor left onto a large piece of cardboard or piece of carpet and yank it out through the right rear wheel well.  

 

 1971 I did a clutch job right on the shoulder of Route 3 East in New Jersey a few miles from the Lincoln Tunnel, basic hand tools floor jack and a few concrete blocks ~ Alan in PA,

 

99 out of 100 times, I do not see the  bolt holding the fan shroud to the small metal piece which is 99 out of 100 times, left off the dog house oil cooler.  It's easy to remove and replace the dual carbs on any speedster with the removable engine panels.  Faster that working on a full bodied VW Bug.  If the man has a very limited floor jack and I am talking here about one costing only $30 and four cheap stands, taking off the fan shroud is not that much trouble.  You remove the carb linkage with only taking off the top attachment to the cross bar to adjustable rods.  Then, the air cleaners, fuel hose and then the four intake to head nuts. Next, I would remove the two dog house sheet metal pieces which are not that hard to reach. If the rare bolt is on the rear of the fan shroud ( bet it is not) you can then reach around with a combination wrench and take it off, then fan belt, alternator strap, two fan shroud bolts ( just loosen) , throttle cable and the fan shroud is off.  That allows for less height needed to raise up the car, to pull out the engine. After the carb/intake manifold as an assembly is removed, place paper towels in the heads, to keep out dirt. Look at the intake to head gaskets, while those parts are off the engine and replace those gaskets with same material previously used and then, your carbs will go back the same way they were installed and linkage adjustment will not be needed.  People complain about dual carb linkage changing, but physically, that seems impossible.  I have no idea what they are doing and neither do they.  Dual carbs stay adjusted, once the linkage is set correctly.  It does not change.  Porsche used dual carbs on their engines, until FI came around and you know, for production cars, they did not want the owner of the car to worry about some linkage getting out of adjustment.  I wonder who these people are, complaining that is it too hard to keep dual carbs working right.  They should be driving Mustangs or Camaro cars, not Porsche or VW. 

 

Pulling engine out from under the right rear fender,  ????  , suspension is in the way.  I do not agree with that idea or suggestion.  In a pinch, I was able to raise my old Beetle high enough to remove that engine using a 1.5 ton bottle jack, some cheap car stands, plenty of 4X4's and a $30 floor jack, but that is too unsafe.  The $30 floor jack can handle lifting up the car , slowly but you need to borrow jack stands which go up high enough to allow work under the car, safely.  To get the small floor jack to lift higher, add a small piece of 4X4 on the lift area and you gain four inches more height.  I had to use the 4X4 piece of wood often as my old floor jack did not lift but 17 inches . 

 

Never, for one second, place your body under any vehicle, when jacking it up and only work on the vehicle when on good steady and level floor jacks or support stands. Never use concrete blocks or bricks or tires to support car in the air.  Not Superman can move fast enough when 1000 pounds drops on you, weight of the rear end of any speedster.  One more comment- no need for front jack stands and I never use them when removing any rear engines.  Block the front tires , on the garage floor with 4X4's wood pieces.  Safety first, please.  Work smart and careful and to repeat, not any part of your body under the car, until it is on good floor or support stands. 

 Pulling engine out from under the right rear fender,  ????  , "suspension is in the way".......... ( No it is not and is quite easy to do)

 

 

"No front jack stands needed?"..... (How the hell do you reinstall a motor on an angle, poor info there George.)

 

George, I have been doing this on occasion for 37 years, ( 16 of those years are on 37 speedster projects) Sorry our new friend but when a newbie jumps in and comes up with comments that are inaccurate it quickly becomes old hat.

50 years working on VW's. Not a newbie. Well, I know, on the Beetle, the body comes down low on both sides of the engine compartment and while I have limited experience pulling engines on the speedster, it has slightly more room, but not much more. Besides the suspension there is the engine compartment body in the way. Not what VW ever suggested in their tech notes or at the old Dealerships. I did not write it was impossible, but not what I would suggest doing. I have build and installed over 700 engines. I guess you have that number beat ? Pulled engines out of every Porsche rear engine cars, all types of rear engine kit cars and of course , all year Beetles and VW buses. What you suggested is not what I think is safe and practical. I am very safety minded.

But, you keep doing what works for you. Great country we live in --America, home of the free and the brave. You are free to do it your way. Great country ! God Bless America !

Not often thereis a pissing match herein and I will not be  apart of one either....been here way too long.

 However in closing, lowering the motor with a floor jack and sliding it out the right rear wheel well is about as safe as one can get ....it's  - on - the - floor ~

I have yet to see a 300 lb. motor fly up off the floor and injure anyone. Anyway I'll take the high road I am done posting on this subject but, I am sure you have a ways to go yet.

Grant:

 

Dialog Al Gallo about pulling his engine and putting it back.  We (he and I) just did it back in the Spring and he can describe exactly how we did it (and we didn't have the rear of the car THAT far up in the air, either).  I had mine out a year ago and did mine the same way as we did Al's.

 

After pulling the heat shields, wiring and stuff, it was out in about ten minutes and went back in just as fast.  It takes longer to get everything removed and ready to pull the engine than the actual pulling.  We left the carbs and manifolds on (it is a VS and everything clears) as well as the exhaust system (makes a handy thing to grab onto when jiggling things to make them align).  It's a bit different on a Speedster than a VW sedan, but there are some time-saving tricks to know (like Merklin's).

 

Or you can PM me and I'll give you some handy cell numbers to call if you have questions in the middle of pulling it.

 

gn

I am never in a "match" with others. My goals are to help others to repair and/or assembly ( in the case of replica assembly) cars. I have been an auto tech instructor at a local community college in the past and sometime during the early 1990's did substitute teaching in math and science at the local high schools. I have supervised many mechanics in both the dealerships and in oil field equipment manufacturing companies, teaching those what little I had learned or was taught by others. If you read my post, often I say I am not the smartest person around. I am being modest with that statement.

I hope even with many past post put on this web site, there might be a few things I post which helps others to better understand how to put the speedster together or how to work on it. This is not some personal match and I never word things to be personal. But, some have ideas or ways to do things and in the past, many have shown me those ways are questionable, at the very least.

Having the great experience of being around and watching some of the best auto tech or race car mechanics working on their race cars, at many tracks, in sports car events, road rally events, drag racing, and autocross events, some on a national level, I have learned we never are too old to learn a better way of doing something, if open to change.

I am sure the majority of my speedster build will be things which have been shown many times on this web site, over and over. Maybe, a few "new" approaches will show up. I don' t know, but the readers might find the "new" thoughts or actually modified custom made items on my speedster to be unique. And, if they do, I have done my job.

I cannot take my knowledge to the grave and want to share as much I have learned with others, but it will always be with safety in mind and finding the right way and sometimes, easier way to work on the speedster and/or other cars. When I read something that I have not read before and do not understand it ( has nothing to do with any "match" of what is right or wrong) I ask questions or a comment and a question.

Been on this www.thesamba.com web site helping others on air cooled repairs since 2003. I have positive feedback on my repair suggestions and many "thanks" for saving others money and time. I guess, on this speedster web site, the members are in a slightly higher educated level and make more income in their jobs, than the majority who only own $3000 to $5000 VW's. After all, I expect to spend more on this speedster than I have ever spent on any vehicle I have bought, ever, in my lifetime, so there is a big difference in member's knowledge here, compared to the VW web site. Well educated people and those otherwise with lots of money think they know it all as they have measured success by money or what they own. I measure success by how many people I help to know more about cars and repairs. No money involved in doing this as nobody is paying me for my shared knowledge.

So, drop any attitude any member might have towards me as the "new" kid on the block as I am not new to web sites with vehicles the common interest. IF you repair your speedster, there is nothing I can think of with any brand or combination, any custom made parts or what you bought or did on your own vehicle which I do not fully understand. I do not get my knowledge from the internet but from just having done so much auto building and repairs for too many years. You might learn something from me. Most people thank me and have learned something and that is my goal, to teach others.

So, let's move forward and drop the "I own a better or more expensive or more speedsters " attitude and try to share and learn from these post. I don't care how old you are or what your knowledge might be, unless it seems logical and correct , based on not what I think, but what many other's whom are very smart people, have taught me. Having built 400HP turbo charged VW engines and raced many brands of cars, since age 16, done type four conversions for install in Beetles, used every known brake system and clutch system available, I can perhaps share some limited knowledge with the members. From stock 1600cc to 2387cc, have done them all . Stock Bug swing and IRS systems, done them all. Carb, fuel injection, turbo charged , done that on air cooled engines. But, still learning .

I bought a nice looking high horsepower Beetle earlier this year. The car had expensive Ron Lummas four wheel disc brake system, and he used Wilwood components. I removed the $2500 valued new brake system as I wanted to use this on the street and the brake system was not designed for this use. So, sold the $2500 for $1000 and it sold in three hours time. Point is, safety comes first. There was no emergency brake system, only a single cylinder master cylinder and no way to meter the pressures in that system.

I have helped friends build the fastest air cooled engines around and one street sand rail now has a 450hp ( not joking) Kawell custom built turbo system on a 2387cc air cooled engine. This vehicle is faster than any speedster I have see advertised or described on this web site. I helped in the planning of his vehicle. I have build all out drag race cars using air cooled engines. National record holding VW's.

I thank all members for their positive comments and suggestions, which I do follow. Still learning. Not very good at doing research for who sells what parts for my speedster, so appreciate the links. ---George K. ---

I just pulled my motor. block your wheels jacked up the rear left side and pulled the motor like the Doc but with the wheel on. But I have a 911 shroud.

Quick question: what's your screen name over on TheSamba, George? 

FWIW, I level off the car about 12"- 18" off the ground, loosen everything up, and slide the engine free of the transaxle on a motorcycle jack. I spin the engine just a bit so the carbs and everything else will clear the frame-rails, then drop the motorcycle jack. I'm still a long way from being able to get the engine clear of the car, so I jack the back up as high as my long-frame jack will take it, nose down so the angle will work in my favor.

 

Reinstalling is the reverse. Once the engine is under the car, I put the car back level and reinstall.

 

The hard part is usually lining up the angle of the engine to match the angle of the transaxle. Sometimes it slips right in, sometimes it doesn't. Your mileage may vary.

It's George4888 or you can also find me doing a search under that user name or my real name --- George Karacostas. Check me out, not kidding about what I try to do for others.

Two minutes to one hour to get the splines to line up on the transmission shaft and the clutch disc. Sometimes, the parts do not like me. It is really nice when the engine slides in fast into the transmission. Since I have a repair shop, I use two 3ton rated floor jacks and two heavy duty floor stands, leave the front tires on the floor as the back end of the car gets higher that way. My jack will lift up to 22 inches and under the lift point under the chassis, as far rear as possible, that really gets the vehicle high enough to let the engine clear the body. I do have the chassis sitting on the stands, when pulling the engine out, then jack up the car, to allow clearance to pull the engine on the floor jack out. If you do your own work, or help friends with replica cars or air cooled VW's, buy the better and bigger floor jack. I have found Harbor Freight, with their sales, having the lowest prices and a one year warranty, if you pay for that extension, otherwise they only back up for warranty for 90 days. I think their highest lift floor jack sells for less than $150, on sale. And, rated for 3 or 3.5 tons, so you can use it on your other bigger vehicles.

George:

 

A lot of us on here have gone way beyond using regular, rolling floor jacks to pull engines on these cars.  We've gotten to better methods by trying new things and passing along what works well.  What works WAY better is a Craftsman Motorcycle Jack like this:  

 

http://www.amazon.com/Craftsma...V-Lift/dp/B00JNY0SPG

 

Typically, we get the car level, up on 4 jack stands about 18"-20" off the deck and, because the motorcycle jack holds the engine level you can ease it right out and back in because everything lines up.  You're not screwing around with a 6" rotating plate, standard floor jack, trying to tilt and aim the engine onto the trans input shaft from three different angles - it just has to be approximately the same height and it slides right together because the car is level on the stands.  Tilting the fan shroud back to clear any obstacles on the way out the bottom is a snap.

 

A couple of friends have tried the Harbor Freight version of the same jack and found it to be really poor quality - Their jack lasted one to three engine pulls and then fell apart, while my Craftsman has been working faithfully for me for 15 years or more.  Buyer beware.

 

One last thing:  You might have noticed (or maybe not) that a few others on here have as much, if not more, car experience as you espouse.  I think that's great - people asking questions can get several different points of view from experienced people to help them make the best choices to help them proceed.  What we DON'T need is eleven paragraphs of "how wonderful I am and look at all I've done."  Give us good, solid answers to questions, without a lot of BS, and we'll know whether or not you know what you're typing about.  Some of us have been building cars and racing since the early 1960's.  Some of us build killer engines (my son used to run a turbo'd Mitsubishi putting 680 hp to the wheels and running 1/4 mile 10.9's at 140mph out of a 2.4 liter) so you're not alone on here - we just don't get off about it. You have questions?  We'll try to answer them for you.  You got answers to other's questions?  Please keep them short and to the point.   You've got a lot of knowledge and experience that we could certainly benefit from, but so far, you're coming off as the know-it-all you seem to despise.  Just sit back and lurk for a while longer and get to know us better and you'll see how we work together.  We're not a bad bunch, but we don't suffer fools, either.

Been aware of the motorcycle jacks, but modified my cheap floor jack with a bigger plate, so it really does help balance the engine. Thanks for he advise. I think I am out of telling how wonderful I am. I am well aware some members have good knowledge and think I mentioned this fact in my lengthy post. Since I do a lot of other work on various cars, the normal floor jack seemed like the best buy, for me. My old Lincoln jack is 40 years old and still working, but made in the USA. I like USA made products, but getting hard to find them or afford them.

Later will show you a neat device I made to install coil over EMPI shocks on the rear suspension. It's a fast fix to sagging rear ends, but of course, the best fix is to readjust the torsion bars. Stay tuned for my neat device.

 

George,

 

Sorry man. You will have to suffer the rhetoric and psychological beat downs associated with becoming a new member here. There is no escaping that.

 

When we know that you will be attending a meetup with other members you will have to go through the initiation by paddle process. It has to be this way George. You must be broken then built back up. 

Yeah, part of that initiation is you have to beat on Rusty with an old Cricket Paddle (we tried ping-pong paddles, but these are far more effective).  Might not do much for Rusty, but for the paddler it's pretty decent........  

I find it much easier to lower the engine down to a dolly via an engine hoist rather than balance the sump on any jack. The engine tilts easier just when you need a bit of tilt for reinstallation too.

I've got the AL Harbor Freight version, and it's been all that and a bag of chips. It's really, really nice.

 

Some HF stuff is junk (my long-frame jack, for instance), but some of it is really nice. This jack is one of the nice things they sell.

 

Freshman year in High School ? Again ? I do need a hair cut .

I am jealous you guys know the year your speedster was produced. I am writing to the title owner of the VW chassis to see if that person is alive and if they know the year, the VW floor pan was sold. Perhaps, they started this project. Someone did the modifications to the floor pan, then stopped. Looks like they wanted the speedster for sports car racing or maybe drag racing, not for street use. Based on what was done to the suspension. The front was modified per the speedster assembly manual, but they added two inch dropped spindles, putting it too low , for street use, in my opinion. I returned to the stock spindles.

The rear suspension was too low, so added the cheap coil over shocks and that , so far, has put the rear suspension at where I want to see it. I am using Bus rubber stops on the rear as they offer a softer cushion if one bottoms out the rear suspension. The bus ones fit the same way as the Beetle ones. Easy thing to do and adds protection from breaking CV joints.

Oh, saw on some 550 suspension with some questionable angle on the CV joints. Bentley said only 22 degrees on the axle shaft, or the CV joint might break.

Curious ? Did the gentlemen doing the fan shroud off work find they had the 6mm bolt attached on the rear by the dog house oil cooler. Just curious, as most of the time, that is missing as the metal piece it attaches to, also missing.

Removing the dog house oil cooler to replace it's seals . Follows with this topic . I found SAE size 1/2 inch in a distributor hold down nut removal tool to work good with some grinding on the outsides of that tool. They sell these at the local auto parts stores. The 1/2 inch is close enough for the 13mm head size of the dog house oil cooler nuts. Just grind off much of the material on the round part of the tool to clear the engine case. This makes taking the oil cooler on and off, when you still have all the sheet metal in place, more easy. The single 13mm head nut on top of the case is easy to work with, with standard ratchet, extension and 13mm socket. Getting an open end wrench inside the cylinder head tins is tricky and causes damaged skin on fingers. I tried shorty combination wrenches and those helped, but not as good as the distributor hold down nut removal tool. These come in different configurations on the handles. Look , next time you are at the auto parts place or at Sears and check out what I am talking about. Sooner or later, the oil cooler seals will need replacing.

Speaking personally I have no idea how to take the engine out or put the engine in a car like this.

If I'm not mistaken, once the motor is pulled away from the tranny, you should be able to lift your fan shroud off and change the cooler seals without pulling the motor from under the car.

It's not very difficult!

On a stock VW engine, you can remove the fan shroud without dropping the engine. In some cases, this is faster. Depends on exhaust system to remove , like A1 side winder muffler, which has to come off to drop engine or dual carbs. Now, on the speedsters possible to install and remove engine with dual carbs on engine, but they possibly will be in the way of getting at the two bolts on each side of the fan shroud to lift up the fan shroud.

I already gave some good information about tools which will make removal and installation of the oil cooler seals easier. Without them with engine installed or out of car, you have to fight for working space inside the number 3-4 cylinder tin, for the removal of the two lower nuts.

Just take the motor out. Buy some GOOD tall jackstands and a good floor jack. 15 minutes tops and the engine is on the floor. Let me tell you, working on dual carb engines in a Bug or Speedster sucks. And, I haven't worked on hundreds, just about 30 or so.

 

Fly me there and I'll do it for you for food and beer......and that is no BS, ask around. GTman, you on the east coast?

 

And I guess I cheat, because floor jacks are so, um, pedestrian? I use a ceiling mounted chain hoist and lift the car onto stands, then put a strap diagonally to exhaust or exhaust studs, and lift then lower. And the front of the car is ALWAYS dow on the ground, as angle of engine is easy to control as it is hanging.....

 

You mileage may vary.

I can't even picture that.

 

Sounds kind-of S&M to me.......

 

Weird things with Trapezes and stuff.......

I was going to say, in a bragging way, that I just use my scissor hoist, but we've sold our house and the scissor hoist is included in the sale.

That's my big fear, Ron. I waited my whole life for the garage of my dreams. Now that I have had it for a few years, I'm pretty sure all of it will stay with the house if/when we sell.

Stan, you'll just have to hang in there as long as you can.

 

That is one really cool looking jack Stan.