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RAT 2270 in Speedster/Roadster?

brucecbrucec
Without re-launching the Type I vs IV debate - I hope - have any of you put a Raby engine in your Speedster or Roadster? Tell me about it, pls! I like the idea of 140+ HP (and lots of torque) in a <1-ton car! I'm wondering if it's worth the expense to go with a RAT 2270 instead of, say, a good 2110 Type I (acctually, I don't even know what the cost would be, which obviously would depend a great deal on the specifics, but I don't even know where the ballpark is).

This will be a daily driver, my main car. Reliability is important. Not gonna race it, but I'd like to be able to feel the power in the seat of my pants (that doesn't sound good, but you know what I mean). For my driving style, performance off the line is less important than the ability to jump from 50mph to 80, or climb a hill at 70, or cruise for a long time at 85. I don't race rice burners or detroit mullets or whatever, but I do want a car with the performance to back up its good looks.

Some of my concerns so far:

I know it (the Raby engine) should fit. No problem there. But is it hard to work on?
Raby discourages heater boxes - what to do? Put 'em on anyway or find another solution? I've seen the threads on gas and 12v elec heaters.
B or C engine?
Is this whole idea overkill?

I appreciate any and all thoughts. Thanks.
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brucecbrucec
Without re-launching the Type I vs IV debate - I hope - have any of you put a Raby engine in your Speedster or Roadster? Tell me about it, pls! I like the idea of 140+ HP (and lots of torque) in a <1-ton car! I'm wondering if it's worth the expense to go with a RAT 2270 instead of, say, a good 2110 Type I (acctually, I don't even know what the cost would be, which obviously would depend a great deal on the specifics, but I don't even know where the ballpark is).

This will be a daily driver, my main car. Reliability is important. Not gonna race it, but I'd like to be able to feel the power in the seat of my pants (that doesn't sound good, but you know what I mean). For my driving style, performance off the line is less important than the ability to jump from 50mph to 80, or climb a hill at 70, or cruise for a long time at 85. I don't race rice burners or detroit mullets or whatever, but I do want a car with the performance to back up its good looks.

Some of my concerns so far:

I know it (the Raby engine) should fit. No problem there. But is it hard to work on?
Raby discourages heater boxes - what to do? Put 'em on anyway or find another solution? I've seen the threads on gas and 12v elec heaters.
B or C engine?
Is this whole idea overkill?

I appreciate any and all thoughts. Thanks.
FM Former Member
Aloha,

I don't think your idea is overkill. This is what I plan to do as well. However, I am going to ask Mr. Raby to equip the engine with fuel injection...for drivability.

In terms of how difficult it is to work on a type-4, it shouldn't be that different from a type-1. Just has its own peculiarities. I like the fact that the spark-plugs are on-top of the heads, not on the sides (easy access). My one pet-peeve about the type-1.

If you want heat, get an Espar heater. Like, George Brown, on the boards here says, it might be expensive, but its worth it. I plan on this as well.

aloha,
Joel
FM Former Member
The Type IV air-cooled VW engine is the engine that VW designed in the 1960s to replace the 1930s designed Type 1.

The Type IV is a stronger, more durable engine than the Type 1. If you like to cruise for long durations at high speeds, the Type IV is a better choice for that use. The Type IV has a better case, better cooling fins, a better oiling system and more torque. Surprisingly, many feel that a highly modified Type 1 will put out more peak (say drag race) horsepower than the Type IV.

The Type IV was designed as a two liter engine. The Type 1 was designed as a one liter engine and then grown to 1585cc.

If you want to find out the pricing differences, check out Raby's Air-Cooled Technology web pages. Also check out CB Performance and Bernie Bergman for Type 1 pricing. (Yes, you cna buy cheaper Type 1 engines, but they are mostly really cheaply built engines.) Jake stands behind his engines.

Best of all, the Type IV is only about 40lbs heavier than a Type 1 so there is little weight shift. (If you want to invest in 'Nickies' cylinders the weight is the same as the Type 1. Can you say $$$$?)
FM Former Member
Type 4 is heavier and stronger but a type 1 2,276cc (82mm stoke and 94mm bore) is quite common in the VW high performance world. Good quality parts (forged chrome-moly parts like CB Perf. 8-dowel crank, 12 1/2 lb. flywheel, H-beam rods, and CIMA/Mahle pistons/cylinders) with say a Web Cam 86b camshaft, CNC 044 heads with 44 in./37.5 ex. valves, 9.0 to 1 compression ratio, decent ignition system, KP stage 1 clutch, doghouse shroud and tin, and a 1 3/4" merged exhuast and you're good-to-go with around 190 BHP.
oldyeleroldyeler
I recently read a post somewhere else that a fellow twisted his forks in a beetle with that same cc engine. (Holy tourge),,
Using a Joe Cali or Sharpbult upright converson would solve the service work, and maintance problems .
If using type 1 mounts. A Kafer cup mount and a rear tourge bar would save the forks But type 3 mounts would be cheaper and a simple fix, and it will work with the upright stuff .
The exhaust try, Rienheart Tuning's stainless set up with shortened heater boxs, or Mittelmotor's setup they have some nice kits to pic from ,but they aren't cheap, a header would be a cheap fix to get you going. but if you live up north you won't have a heater
MASSIVETYPEIVMASSIVETYPEIV
Bruce,
I have several customers that read this board that have TIV engines in Speedsters...

I refuse to discuss it here any longer, all it does is start trouble. NO ONE can compare the two unless thay have driven both cars with a correctly modified TIV engine converted to upright and a similarly tuned TI....

When you want the facts, email me, and I'll hook you up with the people that drive the cars daily with my engines.
FM Former Member
Bruce, go over to www.cal-look forum and you can "hook up" with all the type 1 performance engine guys too. Then compare notes about what you want from your engine. And ask me or Karl Macklin (new owner, on this site) about the smoothness and performance of my ex-IM with a 2,110 type 1.

Jake is a type 4 guy, and I'm a type 1 guy - different strokes...
brucecbrucec
Thanks all. I'm still doing a lot of research on engines in general, TI vs TIV, how much power is enough, etc. I think I've read every thread here on the subject, at least once! I'll check out cal-look.com and keep digging. Hopefully I'll get to ride in one or two of these babies and get a real feel for how much power I need.

As I contemplate the costs of my dream car, I keep waffling between getting a really nice car (IM) with a not-too-expensive engine, a not-too-expensive car with a killer engine (Raby or other), or an expensive car with an expensive engine (IM+Raby=$$$). The words that keep haunting me are George's repeated pleas of "forget about the money, you only live once, life is short." But then again, I'm only 38. :-)
FM Former Member
Aloha,

Brian: I'm only 23 and I'm already saving up for my Speedster! The way I rationalize it, is that I'll end up spending something like $30k+ for a 'nice' car nowadays anyway (especially for a sports car), so why not get one that isn't seen on every corner, and have it done the way I want it to be done? I could probably buy a Honda S2000 or BMW Z4 for the same price...but Speedsters are just too cool.

Besides...I had to sell my all-original 1967 Beetle (sleeper) to pay for my wedding recently. Part of the deal with my wife, was that once we're both finished with our masters degrees, I get to buy myself another toy.

So...one way or another, I'm gettin' a Speedster. :)

Alohas,
Joel

FM Former Member
Ron, you can put a 12V Espar gas heater in any car or truck; you just have to figure all out the mounting, plumbing, and wiring.

Brian, over the years I've lost a few friends and acquaintances to anuerisms, heart attacks, strokes, accidents, and one suicide. Several of them were younger than 35. Remember that the past and future are largely illusions; eternity is NOW - you are participating only for what to the universe is somewhat less than a micro-nanosecond.
Ron ORon O1984/2010 IM, B.C. Canada
Brian: Henry told me that you could not put a gas heater in an IM...then George gets one put in his new IM. Now, does that mean that you can put a gas heater in a new IM, but not a beetle pan model? I've got 1 5/8" heater boxes but I wouldn't go that route again difficulty & cost). A gas heater sounds perfect.
Ron

(Message Edited 4/18/2003 11:49:58 AM)
I Inter911
You're all right! My best man at my wedding was a bit older than I. He and his wife scrimped and saved for early retirement...55 I believe. They were actually fairly well off but lived frugal lives...inexpensive meals, cheap wines, cheap holidays, etc. Once we convinced them to go to Europe with us...they enjoyed and said they would deinitely return. Their holidays were usually going to the farm they bought and working to keep it going and ready for retirement.

Morley died at 54 from cancer. During his last few days he talked to me of his many regrets. I was always able to come back with the many things he should be proud of...great family, wonderful wife, good friends and all the other things he had done in his life.

My wife and I are planning our early, partial retirement in just over two years...I'll be 50 and she'll be 47. All debts will be paid, 2 out of 3 kids through university, homes paid for and enough in savings that in 10-15 years we can fully retire. The speedster is a toy for retirement. I only regret I didn't have the foresight to keep some of the other cars that came my way...a 59 Mercedes 190SL bought for $35 off a chicken farmer; a 67 Alfa Duetto boat tail; a Ferrari 246 GTS...

At any rate...live for the present with sights on the future.

Brian
FM Former Member
Re: increasing an engine's displacement - this is not a big deal. As an example, the original Colombo designed Ferrari V12 block went from its original 1,500cc capacity (the type 125) to 3,300cc (the type 275); "type" designation is one cylinder's cubic centimeter displacement.

Most engines are over-designed to provide maximum longevity and can abide amazing capacity increases via increased bore/stroke measurements. Of course higher BHP/torque outputs will normally require some stronger parts.
FM Former Member
I gotta ask, what the heck are you gonna do with 300 hp in a 1800 pound car? Are you gonna quarter mile it? Are you gonna road race it? What gears are you going to use and where are you going to run it? Have you thought about suspension, brake and wheel/tire alternatives? I have to wonder if you are going to literally blow the doors off of it or hammer out the fender wheels. I've done (do) a lot of really wild things, so don't view this as critical. Honestly, I'm repairing fender wheels and rear end right now from a radical set up in a glass bow tie.
brucecbrucec
If you want 300+ HP, you might as well have it in a car that is made for it, like a Boxter S.

Personally, I would never need that much power. I currently drive a supercharged Mazda Millennia S, which, at 210HP and 3500lbs, is purprisingly fast - once it reaches 5000RPM ;) It's a bit peaky. Give me a wide power band and addequate torque and I think I'll be very happy in a 150HP Speedster.
FM Former Member
There are a lot more turbocharger options in the aircooled world. Maybe consider turbo and fuel injection. There is some really nice stuff out there and you can build a heck of a reliable 200-230 hp car that can be kept on and all over the road. You can go out and spank Z06s and 911s alike. Look for some super low profile 17 inch wheels and matching disc brake setups. You might be able to find a set of Porsche wheel takeoffs, redrill your rotors, or get a front and rear 944 Turbo set up.
FM Former Member
Here is what I would like to see happen: I would like to see a budget set and one builder builds a Type One and dyno's it and another builder put together a Type Four with the same budget and dyno's it.

Both engines will be considered broken in.

In the morning the Type One is installed into a typical McSpeedster and it is driven for a morning in day-to-day situations with some frisky twisty road and highway driving thrown in.

At lunch the T1 engine is removed and the T4 is installed in the same car and is driven by the same driver(s) in the same manner, i.e., real world city traffic, some highway runs and backroad rat racing.

It wouldn't be fair to say let's go to the drag strip unless that is stated at the front, but nor does the average driver put their cars through power launches, etc.

At the conclusion of the day have the driver(s) record their impressions about engine/driving characteristics of the two engine types. This dual comparison may be interesting.
FM Former Member
Erik, actually it's practically apples to apples except that type 4 cylinder heads are a bit limiting. If you went with same bore/stroke, rod ratio, camshaft, valve sizes, compression ratio, reasonable porting, same induction and exhaust system, and same ignition there would probably be an unmeasurable difference.

The type 4 crankshaft has larger main bearings, stronger alloy and through-bolted engine case, different cylinder heads, slightly larger oil cooler, flywheel attaches to the crankshaft differently, and it uses a different cooling fan/tin setup.

It would be easier to find the parts for a type 1 and they would probably be less expensive.
FM Former Member
I still say two engines with the same budget tested in the same car on the same day with the same drivers.

What I read time-and-again is the T4 naturally has torque over the T1, and in stop-and-go city driving torque is a very good thing.

I am not so sure T4 heads are a weakness unless you are designing a free revving engine, but that goes to how often do our engines live at or near the redline zone? Maybe for some often, for the rest of us seldom.

Again, we are talking real world engines for every day driving here. Would the "average" driver notice the characteristics between the two engines, and if so, what would his seat of the pants impressions tell him? I don't know.

Back to T4 heads -- the designer of your biral cylinders has designed heads for T4 that are rumored about ready to set the air-cooled community on its ear. His work speaks for itself so when roll out comes I suspect it will walk the walk.
FM Former Member
Erik, torque is determined by the camshaft, bore/stroke, and volumetric efficiency (valve sizes, port configuration, mixture velocities at different RPM, etc.). The engine "type" has nothing to do with how much torque is produced unless you are talking about box-stock type 1 and type 4 engines, then the type 4 wins because it had a bit more displacement.

Torque is simply the ability to do work; horsepower is a torque/time relationship.
FM Former Member
I am not an engineer George but are you saying a 2 liter T1 engine would have the exact, same seat of the pants driving characteristics, A to Z, as a 2 liter T4 would?

If true this would be backed up with carbon copy dyno numbers.

This goes against what German tuners have been doing with T4 engines for a very long while. I may be wrong but T1 doesn't get the press there like it does here, though that may be because drag racing is much big here.

Again, if both engines are limited to the same budget amount, you are saying you get more bang for the buck with T1, though due to the evolved stock case and beefier bottom end the T4 may last longer (which may be a moot point because how many miles does the average replica owner put on his car in a year anyway?).
FM Former Member
Erik, yes, it's physics 101 - if displacement, bore/stroke, rod length, and volumetric efficiency are the same torque and BHP will be the same. There is nothing magic in going from one engine case or flywheel connection method to another.

There was nothing magic in the type 4 motor since it was only produced for a short time and the type 1 is still in production. The main reason the type 4 died was that the VW 411 and 412 were too expensive (and not very attractive) and the Porsche 914-4 (a VW in Europe) was never a popular seller.
FM Former Member
Guys,

The new "VW Trends" issue has a great comparison of 6 German VWs. Four have T-4s, One is a water boxer, and the other is a T-1. No cost factors/comparisons, and no real handling data, but an interesting article.

I too would love to see a X-amount budget comparison between a T-1 and T-4. Straight line acceleration, 30-50 & 50-70 times, an autocross comparison, street (in city) drive, and highway. Both installed in the same car, two-three drivers comparing impressions and data for both cars.

Jim
OKC Dubutub 02 VS
FM Former Member
Thanks guys. Some experence and some level heads are good. I am coming to what I should be looking for. I agree the 200+ hp would be great. As I recal I had a great time in my 356 normal ( '65 sc ) and it had not near that much. Sides I don't wan't to pull a Mario Andreti. DID YOU SEE THAT??? END OVER END FOUR TIMES IN THE AIR.
FM Former Member
Thank-you Jim. I read the VW Trends article but there was little in the way of meat on the bones.

I keep scratching my head -- why do the Germans performance tuners embrace the T4 but so many here can't say anything nice about them?

As mentioned a straight-across, same day comparison, in one car, with different drivers would be interesting.
FM Former Member
Jack, the type 4 longevity advantage only applies to stock type 1 versus stock type 4 engines. A properly built type 1 performance motor can have a stronger engine case, forged chrome-moly counter weighted crankshaft, connecting rods, and flywheel. You can even have the larger type 4 main bearings if you wish. Add forged pistons instead of cast and high capacity oil system with full-flow oil filtration and there is no longevity diffference.

In fact, the original type 4 longevity superiority was probably only due to the fact that it had a spin-on oil filter and the type 1 engine didn't.
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