Re: California "Black" plate License Plates?

Howdy,
Does anyone know how to get in touch with the company or individual who manufactures reproductions of California black/yellow license plates? Are new plates made using existing plate number?...Or are existing plates just repainted?

Thanks,

Dean

licenseplates.tv you can view the rules and types/colors of California license plates at calpl8s.com

Hey Joe,

Thanks for the quick reply. Do you know why is it they will not ship a California plate to California? I clicked on all other states...California appears to be the only plate they will NOT ship to Cali. Interesting...

DB

DEAN
CALL JOHN AT JPS
HE HAS HAD SEVERAL CARS THERE WITH THE PLATES U WANT
I AM SURE HE CAN TELL U HOW TO GET THEM
JOHN LEADER IS ALSO A GOOD SOURCE

Joe, my Lambo-driving Brutha!!

Hope you are doing well! Haven't seen you since you blew by our caravan in Malibu as we were returning from touring the reagan Library.

...sorry for the hi-jack, Dean. Check on this site for SOC member Tom Williams (TDUBTUB). Tom also went through the black plate process. Good luck with your project!

Here's how I did it.
I ordered an Environmental Plate from the DMV (58 GT). I then ordered the same plate (a black on yellow plate used from 56-62) from LicensePlates.tv and had it shipped to a friend in Oregon.

Then, when my EP came from the state, I took the registration sticker(s) and put them on the vintage plate (which my friend had sent to me when he got it), not the new white one.
I then put the yellow plate on the car, put the white plates in the trunk, and drove it for two years on roads all over the west with no problems.

I actually got stopped by the California Highway Patrol (speeding) and the CHP officer never said a word about the "bogus" plate, I think because its configuration (58 GT) and registration sticker number "matched" the car.

I got the ticket by the way...but the Highway Patrol officer really liked my car...just not enough to give me a warning.

I also had a yellow-on-black CA plate on my first JPS. Did it the same way. Again, no problems. However, strictly speaking this procedure is NOT LEGAL.

Dean, to specifically answer your question regarding why companies won't ship counterfeit license plates to California here are just 2 laws which prohibit the use of such plates:

Facsimile License Plates
4463.5. (a) No person shall manufacture or sell a decorative or facsimile license plate of a size substantially similar to the license plate issued by the department.

(b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), the director may authorize the manufacture and sale of decorative or facsimile license plates for special events or media productions.

(c) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not less than five hundred dollars ($500).


Presentation of Evidence of Registration:
Vehicle Identification Documents: Unlawful Use or Possession
4462. (a) The driver of a motor vehicle shall present the registration or identification card or other evidence of registration of any or all vehicles under his or her immediate control for examination upon demand of any peace officer.

(b) No person shall display upon a vehicle, nor present to any peace officer, any registration card, identification card, temporary receipt, license plate, device issued pursuant to Section 4853, or permit not issued for that vehicle or not otherwise lawfully used thereon under this code.

(c) This section shall become operative on January 1, 2001.

the black with yellow lettering might be easier to diguise as it has two spots for the stickers whereas the yellow with black lettering has only 1 such locatio, just 1 less item the chp has to look for.

Bob and John, more than likely, the law enforcement officer didn't know that personalized plates were not available with the black on orange plates or the orange on black plates.

All it takes is for one knowledgable law enforcement officer (who know's his Calif. license plates) to enforce the above laws (plus a few others)

With our current cash crunch, I'm sure that more enforcement emphasis will be placed on traffic offenses, afterall, it's revenue.

Larry-If you had "black" plates (mid-60ish) from an old retired vehicle or found a set on a junked vehicle (OUT of registration), could these be "re-cycled" legally? (I assume that your donor pan VIN would have to match year)
Thanks, Scott
Add-scenario apply re: yellow (orange) plates?

Since most traffic enforcement personnel weren't even alive when the black (or yellow) plates were issued in CA, it's unlikely they'd be aware that there were no Environmental Plates back then...unless the state made a point to inform all the police to "be on the lookout for replica license plates."

Honestly, I don't think this is a major issue for law enforcement in the state, which is why you can probably get away with it.

Also, I believe the offense, if you do get caught, is a "fix-it ticket," meaning you put the correct plates on the car, have it verified by a CHP personal inspection, pay your fine ($25 for first offense), and go on your way.

I'm okay with that risk. Others may feel differently.

It is possible to find an old legit yellow-on-black plate and use it on your car, if your car is registered as the proper year for the plate (i.e. 57-62). But, you have to run a DMV maze of regulations to get it done.

Dean,
I have yellow plates on both my replicas, one legal, one illegal. Feel free to call me with any questions at 714-393-8547.

Actually, if your car is registered as a 1956 etc. then it's very easy to register it with old plates. (It's called YOM or Year Of Manufacture)
I've done it before on old cars I've owned and it only took a few minutes at DMV however, if your plans are to use old plates on a replica then you're stepping on quicksand.

First thing is it's illegal to register a replica as a 1956 etc Porsche. That's a felony (ask Dale Bates)

In regards to license plates not being a major issue, you're right however, if caught, it does become a major issue.

In regards to the fit-it ticket, most are usually around 50 to 75 bucks as you now have to pay court costs.

Larry-clarification. Regarding YOM: if you register your replica per your donor frame ID (VIN?) and have original old plates of the same year, is that kosher? Example: you have valid 1956 black plates + you have a valid 1956 VW pan, then is it now registerable as a valid 1956 VW? (does a customized body-fiberglass-raise questions? All this is assuming compliance with applicable mechanical inspection, of course.

I went a similar route as John with my various plates except I ordered the 'generic' arts plates which are recycled letter and number combos issued, I'd guess, somewhat randomly by the CA DMV. The difference is the at the DMV -base only goes back so far and the numbers preceeded the letters (ass-backwards) from an actual prior-to-63 plate.

I also bought a YOM sticker from a collector and used it along with the DMV stickers issued. I did the add-on 'ears' thing with the oldies on the plate and the current on the ears.

Like John's experience, no hassles for years. I did screw up in the beginning with a couple plates I bought on eBay that had no validity. My headlamps failed on the way home from a community event and I was within a mile of my house when I got pulled over. Our small-town gendarmes thought they had uncovered some sort of stolen car ring! After about a half an hour they realized and agreed that 'JETZOOM' was a pretty embarrassing plate (it came with the car)but my method to correct this fallacy (single carb stock VW engine) wasn't going to wash. They made me put the vanity plates on the car, on the spot, then escorted me home (I guess so I wouldn't head straight to my lair and warn all the other scofflaws)

I bought a set of 1956 commercial CA plates on eBay for my 57 singlecab and marched into DMV thinking I could just get registered,legit. Turns out I needed a YOM sticker and without it, no sale to the DMV clerk. When I showed up a week later with my newly acquired '57 sticker (same source) he simply said I'm not going to ask where this came from...

You can go on ebay and find the old black plates....but in order to register them you must have two plates not just one....and of course the car must be of that vintage variety (years)

OK, here's the deal, as far as I know, if you re-body an existing car, (such as a VW) it "can" be considered legal to register the car with YOM plates. I have heard that the Attorney General is looking at this as many vehicles have had VIN switches to make them pre-smog and. some of the re-bodies have made the cars more valuable than their original donor car. Right now, I "believe" it's legal provided you have a legitimate pan with no altered VIN

Here's the law regarding YOM plates:
Model Year Date License Plates
5004.1. (a) (1) ( )1 An owner of a vehicle that is a 1969 or older model-year vehicle or the owner of a commercial vehicle or a pickup truck that is a 1972 or older model-year may, after the requirements for the registration of the vehicle are complied with and with the approval of the department, utilize license plates of this state with the date of year corresponding to the model-year date when the vehicle was manufactured, if the model-year date license plate is legible and serviceable, as determined by the department, in lieu of the license plates otherwise required by this code.(2) The department may consult with an organization of old car hobbyists in determining whether the date of year of the license plate corresponds to the model-year date when the vehicle was manufactured.

(b) A fee of forty-five dollars ($45) shall be charged for the application for the use of the special plates.

(c) In addition to the regular renewal fee for the vehicle for which the plates are authorized, the applicant for a renewal of the plates shall be charged an additional fee of ten dollars ($10). ( )2 If payment of a regular vehicle renewal fee is not required by this code, the holder of license plates with a date corresponding to the model-year may retain the plates upon payment of an annual fee of twenty dollars($20)( )3 that shall be due at the expiration of the registration year of the vehicle to which the plates were last assigned under this section.

(d) ( )4 If a person who is authorized to utilize the special license plates applies to the department for transfer of the plates to another vehicle, a transfer fee of twelve dollars ($12) shall be charged in addition to all other appropriate fees.


In addition, you must read this, it was posted on my board ( http://www.spyderclub.com ) a couple of years ago by a Deputy Attorney General of the STate of California.

It makes for interesting reading..

The California Attorney Generals Office has been conducting an investigation into the fraudulent registration of replica vehicles (http://www.caag.state.ca.us/newsalerts/2004/04-042.htm ). The initial investigation was limited to Cobra replica vehicles due to known VIN sequences. We are aware that the same fraudulent vehicle registration issues apply to other replica vehicles and hot rods.

To correct a common misunderstanding of California law, it is a felony to do the following:

1. Register a vehicle where the year of vehicle is misrepresented;
2. Register a vehicle where the value of the vehicle is understated; or
3. Register a vehicle where the year of the vehicle is misrepresented to avoid compliance with California smog laws.

Any of the above actions are a felony in violation of Vehicle Code Section 4463(a). Additionally, the above actions constitute the crime of perjury, in that all statement of facts contained in California DMV documents are taken under penalty of perjury.

If you are a California resident and have done any of the above in registering your replica vehicle or hot rod you may wish to contact an attorney. I would also encourage you to take proactive steps to correct the problem by legally re-registering your vehicle.

If you have further questions you may contact me at (916) 445-9330.

Robert Morgester
Deputy Attorney General
Special Crimes Unit
State of California Department of Justice
(916) 445-9330

Dean -

FWIW, in my perspective the deal with 'vintage' plates falls into the same legality/risk gambit as (1) Not displaying a front license plate (2) Non-factory tint on front windows (3) Non-factory colored bulbs in headlight buckets (as in our early VW-based Speedy's).

There are no two ways about it, they are all illegal as stated by our resident law enforcement veteran Larry J - who knows of what he speaks regarding vehicle code in CA. It's just a question of - "Is driving with any of these code infractions worth the risk/anxiety of a potentially $$$$ ticket?"

In my personal experience the answer is"NO". I have been pulled over more than enough times by Sheriff, Local police and CHP to not want to give police any reason to stop me. I suspect that it was my "PROFILE' in my younger days (guy with big 'afro' driving expensive German cars with blonde female passengers) that got me pulled over on the premise of these same infractions.

For me, driving a Speedster that most EVERYONE knows is 'fake' is not compelling enough reason to risk getting pulled over for a 'cool looking plate'.

...I'm just saying...

It's interesting how things vary from state to state. In SC I was told by the DMV to register it as a '57.

Lane, As nice as it sounds, I don't agree with other states that allow replica's to be registered as such... I don't always agree with Calif. law but this makes good sense.

Some ignorant slob see's a 1957 Porsche for sale (It's a replica) and the seller immediately discovers that the buyer is totally ignorant.

The seller decides to mis-represent the car and the buyer drives off happy that he scored a 1957 Porsche for under $25,000.

In this scenario, the buyer thinks he scored when in fact, he was the victim of fraud.

Yeah, I know, the buyer should know but that's not always the case.

When I purchased my Beck Spyder in 2003, I bought it from a fellow in Alabama. He had it registered there as a 1955 Porsche 550 and sold it to me explaining that Alabama didn't have any "Special Construction" laws and the Alabama DMV made the decision to register it as a 1955 Porsche.

Cars registered in California such as the one I purchased must be registered under the Special Construciton statutes so, if it were just transferred to my name using 1955 Porsche as the year and manufacturer, I would be guilty of a Felony if I knew that it was in fact a 2002 Beck.

We do have a special law called SB100 (Senate Bill 100) which allows the first 500 people registering their replicas (Usually all 500 are gone by noon on Jan 2nd) to register them as the cars they represent. The only advantge of this is that it exempts them from applicable smog requirements.
I knew full well that it was a Beck so no problem

Actually the vintage plates scenario is far more devastating that no front license plate or window tint. It falls into the category of fraud if the owner falsely register's the vehicle as a 1950's Porsche. This becomes a felony and, can, under certain circumstances bring Jail time and a heavy fine which will include back taxes.

Again, I've been retired for 6 years, I don't hand out citations and if you want to take your chances with DMV and the Attorney General, then as the infamous Robert Blake used to say "If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime"

Actually they didn't register it as a '57 Porsche, but as a '57 Becs (sic). I tried to tell 'em that it was spelled "Beck", but they already had a "Becs" in their database, and didn't want to change it. At that point I just wanted a license plate, so I let it go. I may regret it if I ever move out of state.

Larry said, First thing is it's illegal to register a replica as a 1956 etc Porsche. That's a felony (ask Dale Bates) "

Thankfully I was into the SB100 process when I got the letter from DMV asking for the registration papers and plates. They can/will also confiscate/impound your car that is illegally registered.

So Larry, if I read what you have said right, I need to start the SB100 process on my Beck. It was registered as a 57 Porsche in Arizona. The guy I bought it from brought it to CA and the CA DMV transferred the car to CA with a AZXXXXXX registration number. I just took his pink to the DMV and they re-registered it in my name. I didn't think it was right at the time, but I didn't question it. I guess if the DMV is stupid, I am stupider?

Warren,
It's not a matter of stupidity as DMV just shuffled paperwork. They don't really care what kind of car it is provided you have the appropriate paperwork and the VIN compares to that paperwork. However, ignorance of the law isn't a defense and, you can't blame DMV just because they transferred ownership to you.

It's a little late to think about SB100 for this year but, it's not too early to prepare for Jan 4th. 2010 You need to have an appointment first thing Monday morning January 4th to get the SB100 however, you can start the process early. (Friday is Jan 1st and DMV is closed, won't open until Monday Jan 4th)

If you have a local DMV office in AG, then drop in and they'll start the paperwork. Most offices in Central and Northern Calif. aren't half as busy as the offices in So. Calif. so you'll probably have time to get all the details from the clerk