Amen, Brother Al.
But even when it isn't a matter of limitation-- it's often a matter of time. At this point in my life-- time is worth more than money. I get paid more for my time then I did when I learned how to do a lot of stuff, but time is something that cannot ever be earned back. I'm getting kinda' jealous with it as I can see it slipping away.
Sometimes, it just pays to let somebody else do what they do, so I can do what I do, and everybody can earn a living.
Amen Stan!
Wow, Stan......I have actually never been to Strasbourg, either in Germany or France!!
No idea what that means, other than it provides an opening to this post.
I suspected what mine needed were smaller venturiis (turns out, they did, but I was far from sure), but by the time I were to buy those and do yet another rebuild, I would have been close to Dave's invoice amount. And then, would I have bought the correct size? And how would I know that before buying them, other than guessing? and was there anything else that needed to be set right?) I knew that he would know what to do, fix them right and then test them on a known engine... Priceless!
We've both mentioned that this type of work (or anything done by a specialist in any field these days) isn't cheap, and in mentioning that we may be scaring people away from some excellent service. In the time it took me to play with them and play with them and get them sort-of running well enough to be street-able, America has gone through three Presidents and is on our fourth. That's quite a while and all that while they were always a little off.
Dave quoted me $265 for rebuilding TWO like carbs. That's under $150 EACH. That includes the rebuild kits (usually $40 at CB). Add to that the price of four new primary venturiis (For somewhere in the ballpark of $15 each) and testing then them on an engine and the whole shebang came in around $375 including return shipping (and it cost me almost $50 to UPS them out there, so it must have been close to that to get them shipped back).
To pay that amount and get something back that truly ran extremely well right out of the shipping bubble-wrap, while amazing, is kind-of what you expect from a specialist, right?
I would highly recommend Dave Hogland at Blackline Racing to anyone wanting to get their carbs rebuilt and want them done right without screwing around. I am so glad that I followed Stan's advice and did this right. It's made all the difference in my driving experience.
Enjoy Strasbourg, Stan...... Where-ever it is! 
Sometimes as we age we don't get any smarter and try to learn a skill that you should really pay for. Carbs tuning is one, and then there is DannyP 
That's not outrageous, Gordon, to know that when you get them back they are set up for your engine combo and will operate as designed. The problem (with the VW hobby as a whole and somewhat infecting our side of things)- too many people are cheap a**ed, expect to pay prices more reminiscent of 20 and 30 (and 40!) years ago and bitch when they have to pay for anything built to anywhere near oem quality standard. There's a reason for the dirth of sh*t parts out there- put the cheaper crap beside the properly designed and built part and the crap will sell (almost) every time.
Stop this rant and get off my soapbox now I will..
And I agree with you Stan, as we get older...
ALB posted:That's not outrageous, Gordon, to know that when you get them back they are set up for your engine combo and will operate as designed. The problem (with the VW hobby as a whole and somewhat infecting our side of things)- too many people are cheap a**ed, expect to pay prices more reminiscent of 20 and 30 (and 40!) years ago and bitch when they have to pay for anything built to anywhere near oem quality standard. There's a reason for the dirth of sh*t parts out there- put the cheaper crap beside the properly designed and built part and the crap will sell (almost) every time.
Stop this rant and get off my soapbox now I will..
And I agree with you Stan, as we get older...
When I got my car and entered into this hobby I told myself I wouldn't cheap out on anything. And so far I've been true to my word. And so far nothing I've fixed has had to be redone. If you have enough disposal income to play with plastic cars then you probably have enough money to buy decent parts. If you don't, it's probably because you're just cheap.
@ALB : Agreed! Someone told me years ago I can pay for it once or pay for it twice.
Gordon Nichols posted:... I have actually never been to Strasbourg, either in Germany or France!!
No idea what that means, other than it provides an opening to this post...
... Enjoy Strasbourg, Stan...... Where-ever it is!
It means that 9:00 AM where I am is 3:00 AM on the east coast, and somehow I missed your post of success until yesterday. Posts from home generally show up while I’m sleeping.
It’s Strasbourg, France, and yes we did enjoy it— very much!
On to Lyon!
Nice!
How cool is THAT? Hey, the Tour de France went through Strasbourg a decade or so ago. A very, very pretty town, at least from the TV coverage. Enjoy the trip!
Stan:
You going to come home and build a canal through Tremont and Morton?
Gordon --
I've been following this thread, and where your carbs have led you to this point.
Until just recently, I have felt pretty comfy and confident about technical stuff with my carbs, and 'two-barrel' Dells / Webers in general. Now, I have to say, even I am at a loss, unable to nail down a problem I'm having. It's one of those things where I know exactly where the problem is and I've eliminated everything I know that might be causing it.
So I'm sitting here in self-doubt thinking I must have "missed it" or did it wrong first time through. And, only a full re-do of the elimination process (probably including my doing a repeat complete carb knock-down and rebuild) is next in my future.
But, as I've seen mentioned by others elsewhere in this thread, I'm also starting to feel like I'm getting a little old for this (the hands get a little shaky after a while, the patience wears a little thin, the back gets a little tired, etc.). So I called my wife in to read your post yesterday about Blackline. She then asked me: Why am I still messing around? Send in the cabs.
Obviously she doesn't 'get it'. She doesn't understand the machismo of Man vs. Mechanism. In her mind she probably also follows some twisted logic that if my thumb hurts I should stop hitting it with the hammer.
On the other hand, she might be right; again.
Oh my God........
I'm gonna put that in a nice font, somewhat larger, and hang it on the wall of my shop.
Maybe even send a framed copy to Dave at Blackline, if that's OK, Mitch.
Mark: Just do it. Dave at Blackline sees these things every day and knows what is good and will work properly and what won't from vast experience. He'll see something a little out of whack that I probably would miss, and I've been successfully rebuilding (but not necessarily modifying) carbs for over 50 years - lots and lots of them.
But I've been pretty busy with some volunteer work and when it looked as if I could spend a bunch of money on my own to maybe make things better (or probably not, you know?) or spend just a little bit more and have them done right by someone who really knows what he's doing and make them just like new again, well that convinced me.
Just do it.
Thanks again, Mitch!
Mitch Toll wins the internet today.
Maybe this year.
I laughed for 5 minutes. I'm still chuckling. Brilliant.
Gordon Nichols posted:I'm gonna put that in a nice font, somewhat larger, and hang it on the wall of my shop.
Here's a nice gift idea:
Mitch's "Send in the Carbs", with the evil clown from the PCCA badge. I would SO hang that on my shop wall.
Oh hell yes!
Terrific!!!
I just rinsed my sinuses with coffee, Mitch!
Well, glad some are OK with my attempts at parody.
Stan, sounds like you’ve discovered that Alsatian wine.
That's good, @Sacto Mitch!
Nice job, Gordon.
But I'm not sure if a world of Matco Tools calendars is ready for something like this.
You know, Mitch deserves the credit for this wonderful poem so I have deleted the original post with the PDF files and have attached new versions here - Crediting Mitch.
Seems only right.
Again; They were created as an "A" size (8.5" X 11"), exported as a PDF that should scale up well to a "B" (11" X 17") or "C" size (17" X 22") but may get a little fuzzy on the background image at that size (the Weber image is around 2480 pixels square, the Clown a bit less).
Any "Staples" store can accept a PDF and zoom it up to a B or C for you and print it in color (even laminate it for you).
Thanks, Mitch.
Bravo! @Sacto Mitch
Well, I guess I won't be posting the poem on my garage wall after all.
In my funk of dejected surrender I decided to pull the carbs to get ready for send-in. But before I could even pull open the drawer on the tool chest I couldn't help myself and decided to take one more swing at it. I just couldn't come to grips with defeat. The carbs are simple mechanisms, I've been through them several times, I think I'm experienced enough to pretty-much know what I'm doing and why; how could it be that they beat me?
The problem was simple enough to identify: #1 ran sometimes off, sometimes on, sometimes iffy; and only on the idle circuit. I had already installed a new gasket/o-ring kit after carb spray cleanout. Spark was not a problem.
Lesson learned: Sending-in the carbs won't help if you keep reusing the carb base gasket.
The dim light went off when I pulled the carb and noticed the base gasket was wet, on the #1 hole. I didn't have another gasket (it doesn't come with the gasket/o-ring kit), which is why the base gasket kept getting reused. But I did have some gasket material so I cut for myself a new one.
After a 55 mile test drive yesterday, I think I'm good-to-go.
Good on ya, Mark, both for perseverance and for letting others know how you fixed it. Many times, guys present a problem to the group, but we never find out the fix.
Great to hear you solved it, Mark. Sometimes it's the simple things.
Glad you were/are resourceful enough to cut your own.
Well done!
I usually use the one-piece bottom gasket but this last time I had a bunch of the smaller ones (single throat each) kicking around and used those, but my old friend, the dreaded “Dellorto Whistle”, came back but this time I’m treating the whistle as a badge of honor.
”Hear that? It whistles when it’s really cookin!”
I actually like My Dellorto whistle. I feel like the engine and carbs are working well when I hear that whistle.
I remember Wild Bill taking me for a ride in his car back in '05, and demonstrating the whistle. I kinda liked it.
So, here is a question for someone: What size fuel inlet/needle valve is right for me?
I have 48 tri-jets on CB mini wedge-ports, 2332.
Rebuild kits I bought some years ago came with 2.00 fuel inlet/needle valve. That is smaller than what what was installed, so I stayed with the originals that were installed (which are somewhere larger than 2.00 but smaller than 3.00). At some point I should replace the inlet/needle valve. Is there any drawback in going all the way to 3.00?
Why not just put in a pair of 2.5's?
Aircooled.net P/N 79519.250
Not sure the Weber fuel inlet/needle will fit my Dellortos, but I did follow the aircooled site to these: http://vwparts.aircooled.net/D...-needle-seat-250.htm (which is probably what is installed).
The reason I asked about maybe going to 3.00 is because sometimes when driving "sporty" through pedal pumping up and down shifting, pretty much all at 4000-6000 rpm, it seems like I empty the float bowls (run out of gas) in about a mile, maybe two. I know for sure I have good pump flow (Carter pump), clean filters, and good regulator. I can fill a quart jar from the regulator output fast enough to fuel a locomotive. So I was wondering if a larger carb fuel intake hole would be better.
Aircooled says 2.50 is big enough for "wilder engines over 200hp", so it sounds more than big enough for me, for sure. Maybe I'll have to think elsewhere about my problem. When it happens I just have to pull over and idle for a short period, or coast with the engine off/fuel pump on. Then everything is ok again.
Thanks for the link, Gordon.
Have you tried running your floats up a bit to richen it a bit?
Then, if you’re seeing fuel starvation above 4K with 2.5-ish pilot valves, then, sure....... try a pair of 3.0s. Then, if that doesn’t fix it, go to higher fuel volume delivery and see if that helps. What the heck, pilot valves are (reasonably) cheap, right?
HOWEVER! If you pull over and idle to “recover”, the bowls should re-fill to recovered level in less than 5 seconds. Does that sound like what you’re seeing?
Other things might be the wrong spark plugs installed or a questionable ignition module or coil breaking down under stress.
What, exactly, happens above 4K when you see this? I’m trying to decide if it is fuel starvation or high rpm electrical breakdown.
The 3.0 will flood no matter what pressure you run. A 2.5 is the biggest inlet valve the DRLA carb can handle.
RS-60 mark posted:Not sure the Weber fuel inlet/needle will fit my Dellortos, but I did follow the aircooled site to these: http://vwparts.aircooled.net/D...-needle-seat-250.htm (which is probably what is installed).
The reason I asked about maybe going to 3.00 is because sometimes when driving "sporty" through pedal pumping up and down shifting, pretty much all at 4000-6000 rpm, it seems like I empty the float bowls (run out of gas) in about a mile, maybe two. I know for sure I have good pump flow (Carter pump), clean filters, and good regulator. I can fill a quart jar from the regulator output fast enough to fuel a locomotive. So I was wondering if a larger carb fuel intake hole would be better.
Aircooled says 2.50 is big enough for "wilder engines over 200hp", so it sounds more than big enough for me, for sure. Maybe I'll have to think elsewhere about my problem. When it happens I just have to pull over and idle for a short period, or coast with the engine off/fuel pump on. Then everything is ok again.
Thanks for the link, Gordon.
Do you know what camshaft is in your engine- if not, how high does the engine go with power in 3rd gear? What does your car have for a fuel pump? Is the fuel line running through the tunnel still stock?
The reason I'm asking these questions- there's a guy on the Samba with a 2180 (FK8 cam, IDA's), goes to 6500 with power) and Berg 5 in a bug that when drag raced from a standing start drains the float bowls just about the time he shifts into 5th gear. If he hesitates for 1/2 second it's got gas again and away he goes (not that he does that much, as at that point he's doing well over 100mph!). He runs the stock fuel line and pump and they actually can't keep up under sustained full throttle operation, but IDA's hold so much gas that for most owners it's never a problem. A lot of IDA owners open up a blank chamber inside the carbs to make even more fuel available so they don't have to upgrade the fuel line or pump and it works, but it's a bit of a bandaid and not actually the solution to the problem.
Is it possible the pump/fuel lines can't deliver enough gas?
PS- I see you're running a Carter pump- are you sure it delivers more volume than a stock mechanical pump? How big are the fuel lines? Does the tank have the stock fuel fitting or something with a bigger diameter on the bottom?
OK, I'll take Pat's 'no' on the 3.0 as a definitive don't do it. Thanks Pat for putting that question to bed!
To answer a couple of questions quick: The cam is W110, which (yeah I know) I outgrew a lot of modifications ago. Still, it seems to pull to 6000 which is more sensory overload than I ever need and never exceed (on purpose). If I ever split the case again, I'll change it, just because . . .
As mentioned, the fuel pump is a Carter. The regulator is Malpasi, with verified adjustment to 2.5 static pressure. The rubber fuel lines are all 3/8 ID. 3/8 OD stainless tubing makes the fuel line run from front to back and presents the most restrictive hole in the chain: .30". The stainless fuel tanks are custom, with basically a 3/8 ID hose in the tank attached to a 3/8 OD nipple out of the tank.
Altogether, I am pretty sure I have plenty of fuel delivery to the carbs. I've proven this to myself several times over the years by disconnecting the fuel line from the carb intake banjo and running the pump to fill a quart jar. There is no way I could use gas as fast as I can fill a quart jar; if I could, I'd run out of gas between gas stations.
All of this is what led me to the question about the fuel inlet/needle valve size, since that is the most restrictive hole in the supply between fuel tank and float bowl. And, until last week I didn't know they came in different sizes.
But after Pat's reply (and Gordon's questions), I'm starting to rethink everything. I've always thought I was running out of gas. But what if it was the opposite, what if I was flooding too much gas!? Apparently that's possible, according to Pat.
So off to the garage I went, and rummaged for the baggie marked "used Dellorto parts". In it I found both carb's fuel inlets that I replaced more than 15 years ago when I first rebuilt the carbs. Out of curiosity I found that a 1.19mm drill bit was very loose in the inlet hole, and a 2.38mm wouldn't fit. So there is a good chance the inlets I removed way back then are actually 2.00mm. And since the inlets that are now installed have a hole bigger than 2.38mm and smaller than 2.79mm, I'm betting the inlets are like 2.50mm. Not knowing any better, I guess I replaced the 2.00 inlets back then with 2.50.
Well, if 3.00 is an assured flood-a-rama, is 2.50 also too big?
So here is what happens behind the wheel: First of all, I have to be 'trying' hard to make it happen, ae, thrashing it. And since I know it might happen when thrashing it and for other common sense reasons I don't go thrashing often. I never notice the problem in normal 2000-4000 rpm driving.
What happens when thrashing is it starts cutting out as it begins loosing cylinder(s) within a minute or so of hard throttle pumping up and down shifts basically all over 4000 rpm. The remedy is to let it work itself out while idling along side the road or slow rpm driving. This may take a few minutes, not a matter of seconds (to answer your question Gordon). Eventually the engine smooths out and everything is OK again.
Can it be that instead of running out of gas in the float bowl as I've been suspecting, is in reality that I am flooding it with too much gas and temporarily fouling the plugs? And, once they've had a chance to 'dry out' by puttering alongside the road, I'm good-to-go again?
You probably have an issue relating to heat generation.
Thrashing the car makes a lot of heat and something in your engine—a Pertronix chip, mayhaps?—does not like that. I'd look at spark first. It's almost certainly not a fuel issue (though that doesn't mean your fuel system is optimized).
@RS-60 mark wrote- "Well, if 3.00 is an assured flood-a-rama, is 2.50 also too big?"
Could be- only one way to find out. There might also be some merit in what Ed said above. What distributor are you running?
Your symptoms almost exactly replicate a coil that went bad on my old MG Midget. I also assumed that it was a problem with my carbs and went down the twin SU rabbit hole (holes?) for a bit until a friend put me straight. New coil and *poof* problem gone.
It might not be that, but it's easy to test.
