I am about to order from VS. Kirk has told me that 1600cc is plenty for the weight of this car. I am used to driving 911's for the last 5 years and am worried that this car will feel starved for power. Is the larger engine worth the money? I would love to hear some opinions. Thanks.
Steve
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what does an upgrade cost?
I have a 2110 making 136+hp in mine,and wouldn't want any less,especially in modern traffic.
1915cc engine $1000 extra.
Would VS put in 2110?
You will not be impressed with a 1600cc engine. I thought I would be happy with a 1911cc Type 4. Fun, but you'll be itching for more in no time.
2110 enough? A big difference?
The bigger you go, the more fun the car will be. Read https://www.speedsterowners.com.../lastReply#lastReply Specifically, my 3rd post from the top. If you have any more questions don't be afraid to ask; that's what we're here for. Al
I got the 1915 from VS and wish I had just a tad more. I'd not go with the 1600.
Thanks guys. Does anyone know if Kirk puts in bigger engines? I like his price point and build time.
I've got a VS with a 2110cc (91.5 x 82 stroke) specified by the original owner, built by Classic Cars Riverside, and installed by Kirk's people before delivery.
With the torque of that 82mm stroke it's a pleasant in town traffic machine...a lot of low RPM muscle
Engine size isn't the only variable. I have a fairly hot 1915cc from CB Performance with around 125hp. Kirk's 1915s are in a milder state of tune at around 90hp, I think. I like my engine, but would enjoy the extra torque of a stroker motor. Everyone I know of who started with a 1600 fairly quickly wanted more.
You will not be impressed with a 1600cc engine. I thought I would be happy with a 1911cc Type 4. Fun, but you'll be itching for more in no time.
^^ this....
I have a 19xx engine in mine and it's slow as a Turtle. Like... might be faster than a smart car.... but just barely.
The car is called a speedster, it should be at least faster than a stock Civic with the word speed in it's name.
Just my opion
A 90 hp 1915 would outperform all of the original Speedsters except for the Carrera, that had about 130 hp in a high-revving 4-cam racing engine. The replicas weigh about 300 lbs less than the original and the hp range on Speedsters started at 50 and ramped up to 90 in it's lifetime (excluding the Carrera). These cars are about finesse. They have a low center of gravity, are light, and handle corners well, especially for their day. For those that grew up drag racing big V8's, you won't get the same kick in seat acceleration. In fact, many daily drivers will give you a bigger boost today. I have a CB 1915 that has been stroked to 2054 (the engine that Lane is referring to above). I love this setup because I do most of my driving around town, don't have any twisty roads around, and get my jollys accelerating from stop lights and blasting through corners at intersections. My engine is supposedly 145 hp with an emphasis on low-end torque. I have driven other Speedsters and always get a smile on my face when I get back behind the wheel of mine. If you are going to be a road warrior, like Jack Crosby, a Type iV or a Subaru water-cooled engine is the way to go. I plan to drive my car a long time and may have to replace the powertrain someday. I doubt that I would go bigger without switching over to a suby water-cooled engine. It would be nice to have the reliability,heat, and less fiddling about with carbs and valves. When I got my car, I wanted to stay true to the original air-cooled design and I'm glad I did. I'm looking to hearing Marty's car in person in May. I want to hear what a Suby powertrain sounds like in comparison. One last thought, emissions laws may eventually push all future builds to suby engines someday.
2110 enough? A big difference?
If it has some ported 40x35 heads there will be. With stock heads (35x32) and no porting you'll be limited to about 85-90 hp and less than 5000 (4500?)rpm. Even if you cammed it to rev higher, it won't make any more power and will still fall flat at the point where the heads won't flow any more. It will have a sh!tload of torque, though.
Ported stock heads bring the hp potential up to 120-125hp and now it will rev to 5000 (or a little more)rpm. The next step is the ported 40x35 heads, and with an Engle W110 cam, 1 1/2" merged sidewinder exhaust and the right size venturis in the carbs the motor will rev to 55-5700rpm with power and hit 135-140 hp. A W120 cam with 1 5/8" exhaust and it's revving to 6000rpm with another 10-15hp and still having enough airspeed through the carbs, intake manifolds and ports to have stump-pulling torque in the lower rpms. At this level there's still pretty good reliability, and you could jump in the car on a moment's notice and go any where, as long as it's not overdue for an oil change/valve adjustment.
With the 40x35 heads there's still the potential for more power (properly done they will support 170-180hp) and a W125 or W130 will unlock the beast, letting it rev to 6500 or 7000rpm, and you could (at 7000rpm with a motor this big) be at the limit of the heads. A little more maintenance, but what a beast it would be!
PS- Lane brought up a very good point; engine size isn't the only variable. It depends on what you put in it. You can build a 1776 to make 135 hp and it will rev to between 6500 and 7000rpm (but not have a lot of bottom end, but it will still be fun, though), or put the same heads, carbs and exhaust on a larger than 2 liter with the same (or more, depending on the cam) hp results, but at a lower rpm so it's easier on parts (valve springs, guides, seats, rings and???) and still have the boatload of bottom end that makes the driving experience so much fun. The 1776 will be fun but has limitations. On the other hand, the bigger motor...(think evil laugh here)
No disrespect to Kirk or VS as there Tubs are a very good value. But at that price point somethings got to give. Like Lane said earlier, the Stock 1915 is advertised at 90hp but with the solex 40's its more like 70. Here is the dyno from Jack Crosby's 1915cc VS engine in stock form. 56hp at the wheel.
That's before he had the 1001 hp engine from a Veyron put in. Oh wait... It was a Raby T4. I think I got the hp rating right, though.
Steve, Have Kirk put a 2100 motor in your new tub, it will be worth the extra bucks
and you will be a lot happier....
For whatever it's worth, when I was shopping for mine I drove a 1600 and my 2110 stroker and there was no comparison in power as you would expect. I can't imagine settling for less now that I have a couple of years with the car under my belt. I have a VS with an aftermarket 2110, 94 bore x 76 stroke, dual Dells and some other goodies, and I'm pretty happy.
Hope you get what you expect, but I'd be spending the $1k for the 1915 at least.
We put 1915cc motors as our basic motor and beef it up a bit. I can't imagine driving with anything less. Add racing heads for a few more dollars and you get plenty of power. The only reason to accept 1600cc is if you're trying to keep the price at the bare minimum. With a full tank and a passenger you'll be longing for power.
Thanks for all the info. I will definately be going bigger. Will post when it is delivered.
Good decision. Better to get a bigger motor now, than having to pay a lot more later for another engine.
I just ordered from Kirk...two weeks in to the build. I went with the 1915cc. I had another of 1600cc and would not have done it again. nothing wrong with it, but just felt this time i was going bigger. They are putting in the 110 Engle Cam and solid shaft rockers, going with the sidewinder center exhaust, etc. I am looking forward to it.
If you think about it, look up Roland Rascon - Rascon Motors. He worked for Kirk and then went on his own to build Motors...He is Kirks engine builder. He takes my call every time and gives great advice I think. Might not be a bad idea to see what his thoughts are...
"At that price point somethings got to give"
Kirk's pricing is the value leader out there and his prices reflect the fact that he builds more Speedsters than all other makers combined. Over 3,000 to date. He enjoys economies of scale that others can only dream of. It's volume and efficiency that allows a low price point, not "somethings got to give" which sounds like he is scrimping somewhere.
Kirk's 90 HP claim for his 1915 engine is 90 hp at the flywheel which might translate to the 56 hp shown on the Raby dyno graph. I see a lot of guys boasting about their big HP but sometimes these figures are really about power at the flywheel.
So Kirk is not advertising 90 hp and providing just 56. with my 1915 I put in many 500 mile days going at or above the speed limit and ran with anything out there. I doubt 56 HP could acomplish that.
New subject:
In the Raby clip he states that he will add at least 50 HP to my power but he under promised and over deliverered as he added not 50, but 73 HP (at the wheels!) taking the car from 56 to 129 HP. I don't know what that translates to at the flywheel but we need to be clear about what HP we are talking about---whether it's measured at the flywheel or at the wheels.
In my case, the realy important figure is the torque which dynoed at over 130 Ft Lbs all the way from 2,500 up to 7,000 RPM, with the high being 142 Ft lbs at 4,000 RPM. Again measured at the wheels.
with the room in these cars I wouldnt build smaller than a 2332, the cost isant much diferance than a 2110,just a longer stroke crank(about $20.0 more than the 2110 crank),longer rods(about same price as std long,in most cases)cylinder shims or longer cylinders $20--140.0 depending on where&what.and you want good heads on what ever you build so it's no change there.and ofcorse all balanced&reworked as nessary.and duell 44 hpmx crabs(I have about 70000 miles on mine, there awssom) if your execpting to get the power out of a 1600 to compare with a 911 you better of had one sick 911 or a sick 912 with 911 badges.
Bathtub, not toilet
One other thing to bear in mind - the larger the engine, the more likelihood that it will have a shorter life span.
Having said that, I am running a 2276cc DRD Racing built engine in my VS wide body, and it is a little rocket. I bought this engine directly from DRD and installed it myself, as I preferred to enjoy the entire build experience with my teenage son.
And yeah, I bought that 2276 realizing that it was going to last less time than something smaller. But when the 2276 gives up, I will be looking at Subaru fuel injected power !
and your reasoning for this is???somebody that dont know how to build an engine?the less work the engine has to do the less wear & longer it will last(if it is done properly,but that go's for all engines)
I agree with Mark on the engine size. If you're looking at a 2110 a 2332 isn't much more dollars. When I had a new engine built the only reason I went with a 2276 is a had a good 82mm crank. If I didn't, I would have bought an 84mm crank, and went with a 2332.
If you've owned a 911 you now that power is addictive. Here's my 356 replica power history:
1. Bought the car with a near stock 1600cc. Had an old lady in a clapped out Honda Accord beat me from the light, as we 'raced' towards a single lane. The honest truth is I was trying and she wasn't. What a pieces of CRAP.
2. 1776cc with dual carbs, stock heads, and a mild cam. A lot better, but still pretty slow.
3. 2110cc Noticed an improvement, but the car still wasn't quick. What the heck!
4. 2110cc With ported heads, higher compression ratio, and hotter cam. Much, much better!
5. 2276cc Same compression ratio and cam, but this time I went with fuel injection. Dynoed 123 at the rear wheels. Lots of low end torque, but she ran out of 'gas' over 5500 rpm.
6. 2276cc Still in the building stage. This time I'm going with Steve Timms stage two heads. Looking for rear wheel horsepower close to in the 140-150 range
I think this will be enough.
I recommend getting the biggest engine you can afford. You could follow the route that I took, but it will cost you A LOT more.
What Mark said; there's no reason a bigger motor will not last as long as a smaller motor. If all the parts are matched for the rpm range and purpose, compression is suitable for the gas available, it is not constantly beat on ALL THE TIME and it is maintained properly it should have reasonable life.
and your reasoning for this is???somebody that dont know how to build an engine?the less work the engine has to do the less wear & longer it will last(if it is done properly,but that go's for all engines)
Most of us, with High performance engines, realize that our engines won't last anywhere near as long as a stock 1600cc. It's always a trade off.
For me it's worth the shortened engine life. For someone else it may not be.
Steve: if you're a 911 guy you're probably going to want a big engine, like these guys advise. Just know it's going to require care and feeding.
And understand this, too: even a stock 1600 will get you down the highway at modern highway speeds. Your 0-to-60 time will not be stunning, but you will get there. My car's maybe a 1300, maybe 1500 (who knows? who cares?). Shows 46 horses on the Dynolicious app and even that's good for 80 mph when I'm feeling reckless. If it were in a Speedster it'd be faster yet.
Most of us, with High performance engines, realize that our engines won't last anywhere near as long as a stock 1600cc. It's always a trade off.
For me it's worth the shortened engine life. For someone else it may not be.
While you guys are essentially right, higher hp engines will not last as long as a stock 1600; they don't have to be 10 or 20,000 mile "grenades" either. You probably won't get 100,000 miles out of your 165hp beast (although I have heard of guys getting 80,000 and more out of motors with more hp), but at 5,000 miles a year, 10-12 years or longer (as I said earlier, if it's a good combo, maintained properly and not constantly beat on) is not out of the question.
hmm I must be doing something rong, I pulled my motor (2028cc) about 14 months ago for a oil seep at a lower bolt by drain plate,everything looked about like new,cam lifters,bearings everything. granted they only had just over 60000 or 70000 miles on them,and went right back in with only a rear seal(always change them when you split the case and some halomar around the case mating serfaces. and yes this is the only car I own (till I pick up the 356 next week) and I dont drive my stuff easy.it gets buzzed up on a regular daily basis, witch might have something to do with tire wear&the 3 trans It has been through. it only has a .420 lobe lift cam with 1.33 raito rockers&bugpoop 4046 dubble springs, wedgeported heads42x37 valves, 10.4 cr duell 44 hpmx's. so where did I go rong???Ive been machining&building performance& race engines for well over 3/4 of my life. But only about 11 years with these lawnmower engine powered cars. if your builder cant get them to last you might want to find another builder/shop. I do however adjust my valves once a year even if they dont need it, witch they havent.since I put it back togeather 14 months ago& readjusted it the next morning. go figure? build it right build it once and forget about it & have fun...... or constantly screw&redoo it. I like making new stuff not working or fixing old stuff.
While you guys are essentially right, higher hp engines will not last as long as a stock 1600; they don't have to be 10 or 20,000 mile "grenades" either. You probably won't get 100,000 miles out of your 165hp beast (although I have heard of guys getting 80,000 and more out of motors with more hp), but at 5,000 miles a year, 10-12 years or longer (as I said earlier, if it's a good combo, maintained properly and not constantly beat on) is not out of the question.
5000 a year?? dont you drive your stuff??for me it's about 2x that, was more but the last kid has her car now. I would sure like to have that fuell bill!!!(instead of mine @ 30+mpg depending on my foot)
steve 12345432 just find out what you want it to do, and go from there,but a 1600 isant much motor,I have only built 1 stock stroke vw motor for an old guy, he was very happy but it did have some big valve ported heads & a engle camshaft.( It was still slow to me) a mild 2332 in one of these cars would be perfect if built properly.
Budget for the biggest, baddest engine you can reasonably afford! When you get to that number, add 20% in $$$ and then maybe you'll be happy with your choice.
Good to see you posting here Doctor Bobrow. Keep us informed of your plans for your possible engine transplant. Shalom!
