Real P-Car vs JPS Coupe

I have been thoroughly enjoying Tom's beautiful JPS coupe build! I am very much considering ordering a Coupe from John and am really straddling the fence on this and want to solicit other opinions. After watching eBay, Traderonline, Hemmings and 356-specific forums for real coupes, it appears that with some searching you can pick up a decent 356B/C driver in the $20s, a really nice resto-driver in the $30's, and a full-on restoration in the $40s. Once I run through the option list I can have John build a me a really nicely optioned replica in the $30s and likely break $40k if I try to add all the tweaks I would like to make it look like the real thing...

I understand the big price differential real vs replica that exists in the Roadsters, and especially in the Speedsters, but in a Coupe it looks like a tougher call. I've seen pics of John Leader's beautiful black coupe that would be the high end of the price spectrum I'm sure, but a decent example of real vs replica that I'm talking about. BTW, my last fun project was a '67 Chevelle that my son and I built over 4 years so I know the headaches that come with 40+ year old parts and wiring, but they can be outweighed by the joys of wrenching it right. I know this isn't a bashful group... Someone knock me off the fence on this!

I think the biggest difference is the cost of parts and maintenance. P-parts vs VW parts is a quite a price differential.

First thing is do you want an A coupe or a B/C? John does A coupes and at Carlisle he said he wouldn't do a coupe until the price differentials came into line. "A" coupes in pretty good shape are starting to command higher prices nowadays and John thinks the time is right, so off he went. If you want a new car that you can tailor to your taste and is cheaper to run and maintain, go JPS. or...you can get like you said, a 50 year old P-car and wrench it right...but that'll take some time and being a P-car could be a potential money pit over and above what you paid for it. It boils down to doing your homework and how many $$ you have to play with.

If you are a slave to traditional or original appearing 356 coupes you'll probably never be happy with the JPS couplica. It's a nice job but as with speedsters, if you go for authenticity the dollars start to roll up.

Unlike real speedsters, good A coupes (NOT projects waiting to be finished or drivers waiting to go under the knife to exorcise their rust demons) are still $35-50 and truth-be-told that's about the same as a well appointed, well planned, well built, authentic appearing replica Porsche-anything.

Case in point look no further than upholstery stylings in the couplica.
Nice and clean but it screams replica. The JPS couplica lends itself to the outlaw-look far easier (far cheaper) than an authentic-looking stocker.

Sorry in advance to the bottom-feeders, bargain-hunters and garage mechanics who can always do everything for less $$ but somehow set aside the 'you-get-what-you-pay-for' realities.

I went through the very same mind debate for months. I could not find a car (original 356A) in my budget that would be rust free and complete. All were pretty big projects. I don't have the time to do a full restore and I would not want to drive it every day if I did. I'm getting this car to drive and I want the look and love the attention the car gets. For me it just made sense to get a basically NEW car. I know it won't appreciate, but I think it will hold its value far better than any production car I could have. Besides I get to decide what I want and that's half the fun. What's more, I love the 356A. B & C are OK, but I really love the A. Someday I want to own an original (for sundays only), but the green couplica is going to see many days per week and my speedy most of the rest.
An original anywhere close to what I wanted was double or triple my price range and I didn't find too many to choose from even there.

The Green Hornet 356A I patterened my car after sold several years ago at R&M Auctions for over $70,000.
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z11411/default.aspx

My baby is a bargain to me.

I have a very clear opinion on this. It's the CORRECT opinion I might add . . . but I'm keeping it to myself for now . . .

Tom, congratulations to you and John both for NAILING the look on your new coupe! You had only posted one inspiration pic in the past I believe and the set on the link above really shows off how hard you worked to replicate it.

Ok, I'm definitely teetering on the couplica side of the fence... You all make very valid points about price differentials for an A coupe. Personally, I find the B and C models equally attractive so not the big factor for me. BUT, living in Dallas DEMANDS air conditioning (a small fortune and a potential power robber on a stock P-engine) and I realize that I can get far greater handling, braking and performance from a modernized replica.

I guess the only scale balancers left for a real one is having steel wrapped around you and a possibly appreciating investment... though that doesn't always happen if you get too crazy. I mentioned the '67 Chevelle project my son and I did a few years back (pics attached). I spent well into the $30s before all was said and done, and sold it for far less... Oh well, 8 hours on cold concrete with oil in your face, but talking big with your son remains priceless :)

Still a few months to go before ordering one and will likely go that direction, but if I spot the right deal on a near-finished project, my wrench hand might still jump for my wallet. I promise to post first and give you guys a chance to stop me :)

Chuck, that is one gorgeous Chevelle. Nice work. With your skills (assuming you have the time) a resoration or outlaw project is calling you. I can see how you would be teetering.

Time is my big issue. Would love to live and learn through one of those myself but just don't have the time. My 6 month wait would have been 5 years (and a divorce) for a personal build project with my schedule.

Either way I don't think you make a bad decision. TC is a builder. I can guess what his opinion is and in his shoes I would have likely the same one.

That's what I love about all this - we can do what we want and what's right for each of us (and our circumstances) individually.

You're gettin' some really good advice here, particularly from Mr. Harford.
The reality of the 356 marketplace is that A Coupes have appreciated considerably in the last 6 years. C Coupes preceded the A's and remain pricey. The forgotten B's are just now beginning to show signs of going up, too. We all know what real Speedsters & Convertible D's are worth!
Let's face it, Porsche ain't makin' any more 356s so, as time marches on, all of 'em still on the road, lookin' good are going to increase in value - some faster than others.
I think if I lived in Dallas and wanted to drive my coupe a lot, I'd save up my dough and have John Steele build me a Couplica exactly to my specs...and that would include icy, cold AC.
When I sold my second JPS Speedster (the Slate Gray GT with the 2332), I knew my next acquisition would be a coupe. I did a lot of research and searching before finding my 1962 T-6 B Sunroof Coupe right under my nose in the garage of an acquaintance. He had tired of restoring it and was interested in selling, but ONLY if the buyer was someone who would appreciate what he'd done to the car and not start chopping it up into something it wasn't. I was his guy.
So, now I own a 45-year-old Porsche with a nicely built 912 engine in it, new sunroof motor, new interior, pretty decent paint, OK brakes (boy, drum brakes are SOOOO different!), and a shape that makes me look twice every time I see it. It needs some stuff, but nothing that takes away from enjoying it right now.
It's a ton of fun to drive - not killer fast like my Speedster - but I don't know just how FAR I'd be willing to travel in it - it's a "trust issue" that I need to get used to. But, for cruisin' around town or off to weekend breakfast runs up the coast, it's perfect.
And, judging by the unsolicited offer I got for it last weekend from a guy at a car show, it's increased in value almost 30% since I bought it (for what I'd consider to be a very fair price) back in May.
Sorry for the monologue. If you want reliability, modern technology, and the ability to tailor it exactly the way you want it - order a JPS Coupe. In the long run you'll probably be happier.

John your garage makes me greener than my new car - WOW!

But John! You KNOW you can buy a nice "A" coupe for $10K, and a decent speedster for the price of an Intermeccanica! ;/

John,
Do you have a spare bedroom? I just want to come visit for a few months.

~Adam

Stan! I Love It!! Still chuckling!!!

I've been half-heartedly looking for a coupe for a while. Admittedly, the pickins are better here in New England, but those with less rust are down South (for taller money). Best one I've seen lately was a more-or-less rust free T-6B for around $25K, but I would end up putting another $10-12K into it to get it to what I wanted (mostly engine swap).

I'll tell you, though, if I could find another 912 as nice as the one I checked out for Karl Macklin (which he bought), I would probably become a '12 owner...

Mostly I'm just glad to get another thread going... Pickins were getting slim here since Tom and Kelly's beauties finally shipped :)

Holy Triplets, Batman, what's that guy Leader do for a living?? Looks like someone could not decide what he liked, so he bought them all.

FWIW, Steele confessed recently that his "formula" or business plan uses a rule of three: If the real cars cost three times (or more) what he can make and sell a replicar for, then there is money in it and a market for it. Ergo, the original A Coupes in decent shape are seeing ~$60K and up. Chuck: You present an interesting case by being an obvious wrench/finisher. That purple car is beautiful, and you would have no trouble doing right by a real P-car, if you set your mind (and wallet) to it. One question to you is: would you drive a fully restored original like it was your car, or would you think of it as a museum piece? Would you get behind the wheel and think of the car as an investment that you're wearing out, or something that someone might clobber, so you would be careful about driving it; could you really just enjoy it, knowing it might be worth over $100K one day, that is, if it doesn't start to rust? And how you get the almighty A/C into an old original, I have no idea about. I think the JPS Coupe is a great idea well executed, and I will be able to add more color to that remark after this week end, when I figure to have had some up-close and personal time w/ Tom's green one. Although it was a LOT of years ago, I used to own two original coupes (an A and a B). I'm waiting to see if being in Tom's Green Bean (LOL) will bring it all back. I know from looking at the pictures, it does.

Happy hunting.

'MR' Harford?
Did I do somethin' to piss you off?

Good points Kelly, but you also add one more rant to the thread if any of you have been watching the one about safety of replicars :) I also ride motorcycles, a Triumph Sprint ST sport-touring bike. When I'm on it, I "drive" totally different, in a defensive zone, expecting everyone I see to make the wrong decision, run that stop sign, change lanes abruptly... If you've ever ridden you know what I mean. A fiberglass replica has essentially the protection of a 4-wheeled motorcycle, so I would (gladly!) drive it with the same mindset that I ride. I doubt that I would drive an original P any different, not with quite the safety worry, but with respect for its worth, and the growing amount of love and work that I would put into it. But, yes I WOULD drive it, everywhere, every chance.

I believe I could find an original rust-free driver-class 356B/C in the $30s. I would spend weekends tinkering (which I love to do!) to keep it in that shape and maybe slowly better it over the years. With my Chevelle, I had the drive train in and it was driven daily on the street within 3 months, then slowly, never down more than a weekend, I brought it to full life over a 4 year period. I drove the #$^% out of it with a great big grin on my face! BTW, I put a custom Vintage Air A/C unit in from scratch. The only semi-tough issue in a P-car would be mounting the compressor, which should be very similar to the way John and others do it on a Type I. The rest is just routing hoses and hanging parts.

ON THE OTHER HAND (for those of you starting to worry :) I could spend roughly the same amount on a Couplica, get the cleaner front lines and rear deck of an A model, lots more "go", certainly better "whoa", worry free A/C, exact color combo of choice, and optioned to a point that would push the costs of a real P into a whole different sphere to try to duplicate. I get to feed my wrench monkey (not monkey wrench :) keeping a big pair of Webers in synch, adjusting valve lash, and experimenting every way possible to keep the engine running COOL in Texas heat and humidity.

I love reading the posts and don't mean this to be an ender on the thread, but I and others have talked me into getting John to build me a Coupe early next year... I drive it for for the next decade or so while I watch for the right P-deal to come along and store. Then when my grandkid gets to wrench age, I give him/her the couplica in return for coming over to help me build the real P that my wife and I get to drive off into our sunset years. Sound like a plan?

Of course you could also start with the stock Couplica and then over a few years give it some serious gear-head love. Upgrade the drivetrain, improve the suspension, add some other goodies... Maybe even swap in a small fuel injected power plant...

-Jeff

Tom,

According to 356 Registry May/June 2007, the Green Hornet that inspires your car was sold in March 2006 at RM for $145,750, so knowing all the goodies that you put on your beautiful green coupe and seeing it in person, you have a very good deal with your JPS Coupe

John -- MOVE THE BIKES!
What if they fell?!?

Chuck, you're right on time. "... I and others have talked me into ..."
That's great stuff!

PS to Chuck:

You got some pretty long range plans there, and anything can happen along the way. Recall John Lennon's admonition: Life is what happens to you when you're busy planning something else. Long range plans are good, and useful sometimes. Personally, when it comes to grandkids (I have two), my plan is to love them without bound now, and to dance at my granddaughter's wedding. She's eight now; hope I make it. My long range car plans are: do it now. I hope the car and granddaughter plans don't end up being mutually exclusive. Maybe a better plan is to drive her to her wedding in the Speedster -- now THAT would be cool.

Kelly, I'm a PMP, project manager by trade so planning is kinda second nature... I'm just hoping that I get to relive the experience with my grandkids that I enjoyed with my son building a muscle car. If not, I'll just keep em both! That way when I get old and forgetful I've got a better chance of finding at least one set of keys :)

Total change of subject... I've seen a few other posts that I recall to be owners in my area. I would LOVE to buy a round for any get together in the Dallas/Ft Worth area so ping me if anything comes up.

"...the Green Hornet that inspires your car was sold in March 2006 at RM for $145,750, so knowing all the goodies that you put on your beautiful green coupe and seeing it in person, you have a very good deal with your JPS Coupe."

Apples and oranges . . .




Or rather Apples and those plastic apples that they use as centerpieces in furniture stores.

TC - From one perspective I agree. From another, it all depends on what appeals to you about the Green Hornet in the first place. Is it inherently worth $145K? As the real estate people say, "Sure, as long as someone is willing to pay it." But that doesn't mean the same pleasure can't be derived from the couplica, its all a matter of perspective.

WOW I'll be drivin a car that looks like $145k . . . That's pretty cool I think.

TC: You can't eat those plastic apples. They're made to look at. But my plastic coupe is GOING to be driven. A LOT! No sittin in a grage for this car. Bet that's about all the REAL $145,000 green hornet car ever does.

Sure my JPS couplica is a a fake. Not real. Faux. Poser. Pretender. Whatever. Call it an orange painted green and not the original apple. All accurate.

BUT . . . Drivin down the road it looks like the REAL green hornet. And drivin it down the road is a lot more fun than lookin at the real deal sittin in a garage. For about 20% of the price.

Now that's VALUE! (IMHO) Plastic fake or not!

Hey, to each his own . . . RIGHT?

Lets see now. 1 Green Hornet or 5 JPS Coupes for my $145K. I'm gonna need a lot bigger garage.

"BUT . . . Drivin down the road it looks like the REAL green hornet. And drivin it down the road is a lot more fun than lookin at the real deal sittin in a garage. For about 20% of the price."

COOL!

I was going to make a lengthy post . . . but realized that nobody cares.

I'll "say" this instead. If anyone wants a genuine "RUST FREE" 356 Outlaw coupe, we'll grab up a shell from Rusty Tubs or the like. Pretty much get the year/style that you want.

Well replace all the metal, refinsh the body shell, gut and cut it out, drop it over a complete/done/shortened VW pan, install the engine built to your specs, re-trim the interior to stock or race trim, fit a bar/hoop/cage to your liking, and get it all back to you painted and detailed in any way that you specify.


A REAL 356 Coupe, titled, tagged, and ready to drive back and forth across the continent as many time as you can afford the fuel to do it.

(If you'd like a V8 front engined, tube frame 356 Coupe, we already have the chassis waiting for you. Complete with Jag IRS rear end.

All for the price of a fake.

The reason that real 356's cost a fortune is 'cause they're real. ALL REAL! If you don't mind VW running gear and electrical bits and pieces, you can get ANY shop to build you a car at these prices. I'm offering ours as a serious alternative.

I got no problem with that. I like it! When do we start?

TC, I hear where you are coming from, but I have to disagree. Even if it can be titled as a "real" Porsche coupe, what you're describing is a Porsche body on a VW chassis. To me that's not the real thing either. What makes a Porsche a Porsche is the engineering inherent in the drivetrain and suspension - neither of which the car you describe has.

That said, it still sounds like a fun project.

"but I have to disagree"

I can see your point as well, Lane.

"the engineering inherent in the drivetrain and suspension."

There IS none in a 356. I've had my 356 Coupe down to the bulkheads and found mostly VW part numbers. The entire front geometry is VW. The spindles and housings have VW part numbers. The rear suspension is identical. So much so, that I replaced every piece from the spring plates outward with VW. THEN I swapped out the axles for stronger VW Bus units and changed the trans to a purpose built, bus case, race transaxle. All were simple bolt-ins. Current after market parts for the VW based cars are FAR better than the original 356 bits and pieces


Look at it from a racing (and Outlaw) standpoint; the running gear is ALWAYS being swapped out for better/different/whatever. Sometimes it's a tube frame, sometimes not. Lots of full or partial tube cars run reproduction aluminum VW front beams. When it comes to the pan/chassis/running gear. any mix at all, from one car or the next, from the after market or a custom fabrication shop or anywhere in between is ALWAYS correct. A reinforced VW partial rail frame with a 914 RABY engine is viable and STILL a 356. Just not a restored street car. And CERTAINLY worth a hell of a lot more than a fake going in AND out.

Go to a vintage gathering, GT race, or Porsche track event and look at the cars/engineering. There's precious little factory Porsche (other than that beautiful Stuttgart crest) left on a lot of them.

What I was really pointing out is that, for the same $$$ you can have a 356 built that has a lot of it's bit and pieces left in place with all of the original charm in the interior and body, OR you can get a fake body with the same VW running gear and a VERY under developed interior.

One will ALWAYS be a Porsche, the other will always WISH that it were.

I just don't see why anyone wouldn't opt for a reconstructed 356 using some VW parts over a total fake. Especially if the cash outlay is the same.

TC, I hit the Autowerks site you had posted in another thread and thought the exact same thing, why can't you finish out a steel body and drop it on the same replica chassis and running gear? Certainly safer, far more authentic... If this can really be done with reasonable performance upgrades, say a 120 day build window, and stay in the $30-40k range then I hope you can keep up with demand! Including mine!

...this is why Baskin-Robbins has 31 flavors. Not everybody wants Vanilla.

TC,
Unless your shop is working on less than a 5% profit margin you may be in for a rude awakening if you think you can throw a solid quality 356 together that would compete in price and quality with the JPS car. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for your enthusiasm and would love to see you give it a shot. You know what they say about action and words.

Tom,

We do it all the time with TR8's and MGB's and just finished up (almost) a BMW. The only mildly difficult part of a similar Outlaw build-up on a 356 is locating/forming the replacement body panels. A refurbished VW pan or partial tube + pan chassis is a snap at this point. We have enough contacts in racing AND the porsche/VW community to secure the necessary suspension parts at cost or below if we trade. Since we build our own engines, a 1914 and up is possible for a really good price complete with carbs or turbo. Wheels/tires and trim are never a problem, pretty much leaving only the interior.

Considering how poor the interior looks on the fiberglass repro, I KNOW that we can easily top it.

It's all just time and metal and money, believe me, this is no big deal for us. It's just a different make and model. I guess that the way that we make it to work out is the complete lack of pressure that we insist on. Todd is in Georgia right now picking up a replacement TR8 body for a convertible that we're rebuilding for a "client" . . . it won't be completed before the New Year. It'll be a partial tube frame, 4.9 (up from the original 3.5) liter monster. Ford Police issue rear end, four wheel disks, GM trans, race suspension, etc. But NO TIME CRUNCH. It's the only way that we can ensure that we get enough enjoyment out of the builds, to sustain the enthusiasm necessary, to do the high degree of fabrication, that's required.

I think, for this one and maybe all of the ones from now on, we'll set up an on-line video drop where Alan can see the weekly progress on his car. Not that he'll get to mini/micro manage, but just so that he can see how things are going.

TC, we'll definately talk for my next car. Could be next year or 3 years - who knows, but very interesting.

Did somebody say TR8?

I had a series of TR7's years ago... TC got any links to your TR8 projects?

And mmmm old BMWs... had a bunch of those too...

-Jeff

PS - Given the amount of time and effort that has gone in to making all the various coupe, roadster and speedster bodies I'm always wondering when someone is gonig to start selling metal.

With all the advances in CAD/CAM, automation etc I can only imagine that there is a custom shop somewhere, perhaps in a different industry, that could turn out 356 bodies in steel for a somewhat reasonable price.

Reasonable being relative now that IM's easily head north of $50K.

I've tossed this out before and got pooh-pooh'd on the aluminum side of things, but regardless, these guys are prepared to do custom cad/cam work, maybe someone else can stamp them out?

http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/custom/index.html

I'm with you Jeff... I come from the muscle car world where Year One and others have full bodies, replacement frames, hell, you can build an entire 57 chevy or 67 Camaro out of brand new sheetmetal from a catalog all fit together and crated and shipped as a full body or rolling project. I've wondered when someone's going to start stamping 356 bodies to go head to head with the fiberglass jobs? Seems to be a very valid industry to me.

Have you priced a Kirkham Cobra? It'll be a long time until it's cost effective to recreate a metal (probably aluminum) Speedster.