TC,
I'm stoked about your proposition, and quite interested.
Do you have any photos of "finished" projects you have done?
What is the time frame for a build?
Please feel free to PM me to discuss.
Lane, yes I've looked at the Kirkham pricing.
Understand that they recreate the entire car in metal. Not just a body with parts bin drivetrain. They actually completely disassembled an entire read Cobra and went at every single part with a caliper and some CAD/CAM know-how (combined, of course with aerospace engineering that went in to the MiG fighter). That is why their cars cost so much.
I don't purport to be an engineer or expert in this arena, but in my line of work I have seen some amazing things done with the latest computer technology, and some creative minds.
-Jeff
Understand that they recreate the entire car in metal. Not just a body with parts bin drivetrain. They actually completely disassembled an entire read Cobra and went at every single part with a caliper and some CAD/CAM know-how (combined, of course with aerospace engineering that went in to the MiG fighter). That is why their cars cost so much.
I don't purport to be an engineer or expert in this arena, but in my line of work I have seen some amazing things done with the latest computer technology, and some creative minds.
-Jeff
Terry, the line forms to the rear :)
Here is the PhotoShop'd version of my inspiration car... A combination John Madden would love! Silver, Black stripes, black interior with a red rollbar. A little attitude. Thanks to whoever owns this and I ripped their web pictures. Originally blue stripes with numbers on the side...
Here is the PhotoShop'd version of my inspiration car... A combination John Madden would love! Silver, Black stripes, black interior with a red rollbar. A little attitude. Thanks to whoever owns this and I ripped their web pictures. Originally blue stripes with numbers on the side...
I have an eerie feeling I am taking a peek into the future here. So, back in the '50s a bunch of clever Germans bent up sheet metal and had some parts cast/machined, welded/bolted it all together and called the result a Type 356 Porsche and sold it at a profit for a few thousand bucks. Perhaps there are more cleverer people here and now that could do the same. Sounds interesting. In a much earlier post here, I went all philosphical and posed this question: if the fellows over in Stutgart/Zufenhausen were to begin to weld newly made panels and frames up into Speedsters, just like they used to, and sold them for $30-$40K, wouldn't we all be off buying these, vs. the glorified VWs? It was done in 1957, why can't it be done in 2007? How many do you have to sell to make it work?
Counterpoint: Having personally watched a couple (that would be two) of the old German 356s come all unglued due to rust, I am not at all that sure I'd ever buy another one made the same way. Related point: I own up to having said that the replicars (JPS, IM, and others) are the Speedsters that Dr. Porsche would have made, if he knew how. Just throwing another log on the fire . . .
Counterpoint: Having personally watched a couple (that would be two) of the old German 356s come all unglued due to rust, I am not at all that sure I'd ever buy another one made the same way. Related point: I own up to having said that the replicars (JPS, IM, and others) are the Speedsters that Dr. Porsche would have made, if he knew how. Just throwing another log on the fire . . .
Chuck,
Yes, that is a very cool looking car. Makes me yearn for my old Coupes in the worst way. I'm not into the racing stripe thing, but admit that it looks good here. Hope you get there -- sounds like your dream, make it happen!
Yes, that is a very cool looking car. Makes me yearn for my old Coupes in the worst way. I'm not into the racing stripe thing, but admit that it looks good here. Hope you get there -- sounds like your dream, make it happen!
Ditto, Chuck. I reeeeeally like that coupe.
Re Kirkham - They use an old Russion MIG factory in Poland to do their panel beating. They have options like full stainless steel chassis and billet aluminum suspension bits. It's not a stretch at all to say that their car is MUCH better engineered and built than the originals were. I can see them doing a 550 Spyder more than a Speedster. I'll bet they could get their kind of money for one of those.
Re Kirkham - They use an old Russion MIG factory in Poland to do their panel beating. They have options like full stainless steel chassis and billet aluminum suspension bits. It's not a stretch at all to say that their car is MUCH better engineered and built than the originals were. I can see them doing a 550 Spyder more than a Speedster. I'll bet they could get their kind of money for one of those.
I just wanna post a little back-story and give credit where it's due . . . kinda just so that I don't come across as more than I am. Like everyone else here, I'm just a guy with a hobby.
The reason that I know that a steel body is viable on a VW pan is that I have a 1955 Pre-A Continental Coupe out in the driveway right now with a 1968 VW chassis underneath it. We had to install "short" axles from a 1963 VW in order to fit the wider rims inside the rear wheel wells, and it took a while to determine exactly how much to shorten the spine to center the wheels perfectly in the wells. (I HATE how some of the Speedsters have the funny thing happening with the front wheels sitting rearwards in the wells.)
The car has a lower than stock stance, due to the drop front disk spindles, but really because we were able to bring the body down over the pan as far as we wanted to achieve that perfect aggressive look.
The entire rear seating area is opened up right now, to finish off the rear mounts where they attach to the stock VW rear shock "towers." I have the rear bulkhead from a later car that we'll fit/weld in place. This will add the strength of the later cars AND provide the cool factory folding jump seat option that I love.
We used Ghia front pans, since they're wider than Beetle and trimmed up better to meet with the 356 front kick panels,
Over-all the chassis has all of the "go-fast" goodies. Built trans, urethane, etc. etc. all the usual suspects. The body is VERY sound for it's age, but hasn't been blasted or body shopped yet. The car is more of a test bed and everything seems to have worked out perfectly. It's titled, registered, and insured in Massachusetts. I've driven it way more than I ought to considering that nothing is wired as yet. Other than a nice modern Ford Crown Vic fuse box and the main engine loom, all of the other electrics components are just for show.
It's a rough test bed right now, but it's gonna be ABSOLUTELY PISSA next year ! ! ! I REALLY think that we ought to complete the car and bring it to Carlisle next year as a prototype, THEN start taking orders. It will KILL the traditionalists and DELIGHT all my friends ! ! !
So . . . I also ought to say that this whole steel body over a VW based chassis or pan sprang from varied and lengthy conversations with a fellow Evil Influence, Cory.
We ENDLESSLY discussed the benefits of a thin steel shell enveloping his Speedster project. Acceptance, enjoyment, uniqueness, and even re-sale were all run through in length. (I really believe that he would have folks knocking down his home to get at that car if had a steel 356 coupe shell covering those overly bright orange tubes.)
He was surprisingly accepting and equally reluctant to take my help, assistance and advice to heart.
That said, after reading about the new fiberglass coupe coming out, and finding the price so out of line with reality, AND having done it all before . . . I figured that I might throw it all out there.
If Cory should decide to pull the trigger, he would still be first in line. It is half his dream, but otherwise I'm going to speak with Todd when he returns with the convertible and see what the schedule REALLY is for the rest of the year.
The reason that I know that a steel body is viable on a VW pan is that I have a 1955 Pre-A Continental Coupe out in the driveway right now with a 1968 VW chassis underneath it. We had to install "short" axles from a 1963 VW in order to fit the wider rims inside the rear wheel wells, and it took a while to determine exactly how much to shorten the spine to center the wheels perfectly in the wells. (I HATE how some of the Speedsters have the funny thing happening with the front wheels sitting rearwards in the wells.)
The car has a lower than stock stance, due to the drop front disk spindles, but really because we were able to bring the body down over the pan as far as we wanted to achieve that perfect aggressive look.
The entire rear seating area is opened up right now, to finish off the rear mounts where they attach to the stock VW rear shock "towers." I have the rear bulkhead from a later car that we'll fit/weld in place. This will add the strength of the later cars AND provide the cool factory folding jump seat option that I love.
We used Ghia front pans, since they're wider than Beetle and trimmed up better to meet with the 356 front kick panels,
Over-all the chassis has all of the "go-fast" goodies. Built trans, urethane, etc. etc. all the usual suspects. The body is VERY sound for it's age, but hasn't been blasted or body shopped yet. The car is more of a test bed and everything seems to have worked out perfectly. It's titled, registered, and insured in Massachusetts. I've driven it way more than I ought to considering that nothing is wired as yet. Other than a nice modern Ford Crown Vic fuse box and the main engine loom, all of the other electrics components are just for show.
It's a rough test bed right now, but it's gonna be ABSOLUTELY PISSA next year ! ! ! I REALLY think that we ought to complete the car and bring it to Carlisle next year as a prototype, THEN start taking orders. It will KILL the traditionalists and DELIGHT all my friends ! ! !
So . . . I also ought to say that this whole steel body over a VW based chassis or pan sprang from varied and lengthy conversations with a fellow Evil Influence, Cory.
We ENDLESSLY discussed the benefits of a thin steel shell enveloping his Speedster project. Acceptance, enjoyment, uniqueness, and even re-sale were all run through in length. (I really believe that he would have folks knocking down his home to get at that car if had a steel 356 coupe shell covering those overly bright orange tubes.)
He was surprisingly accepting and equally reluctant to take my help, assistance and advice to heart.
That said, after reading about the new fiberglass coupe coming out, and finding the price so out of line with reality, AND having done it all before . . . I figured that I might throw it all out there.
If Cory should decide to pull the trigger, he would still be first in line. It is half his dream, but otherwise I'm going to speak with Todd when he returns with the convertible and see what the schedule REALLY is for the rest of the year.
TC, I can see where this could become more than a hobby real quick, though there is only a finite number of usable shells I would think. Seems the real ticket would be contracting out the sheet metal stamping process to someone like Dynacorn or others that are doing so well in the musclecar world...
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/paint_body/bodies_panels/0506sc_cars/
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/paint_body/bodies_panels/0506sc_cars/
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, and I may have missed TC's original point...
But - what is the "advantage" in putting a steel-bodied Porsche shell on a shortened VW pan? I mean as opposed to a lighter, non-rusting fiberglass body for the same application.
But - what is the "advantage" in putting a steel-bodied Porsche shell on a shortened VW pan? I mean as opposed to a lighter, non-rusting fiberglass body for the same application.
Vin intact, you have a registered 356, a real authentic steel dash and interior panels that don't yell replica (JPS coupe dash leaves A LOT to be desired for realism), plus, I would think some increased margin of safety with a steel body around you. Modern coatings and paint would negate the rust issue for many many years. Besides, it gives us something really good to talk about!
John,
I think it's because real 356's were made from steel so it's more realistic. For whatever reason it just works that way, if you have an original 356 engine and put it in a replica it's still looked at as a replica, but if you put a VW engine in an original 356 it's viewed as an original 356?
I have to agree with the interior aspect. I've always thought of it this way - you spend most of your time on the inside of the car so it better be pleasing to your eye. It does bother me a little to look at the e-brake between the seats in my speedster and the hump on the floor but I get passed it. If I had the opportunity to have a JPS coupe built or have a completely custom built "TC-Mobile" with an original steel body on it I wouldn't think twice about having TC build me a car. Not to down John's coupe, it's a beautiful car. As it's been said already, regardless of how much of it's "original", if you've got a vin # you can always get more out of it if you sell it.
I think it's because real 356's were made from steel so it's more realistic. For whatever reason it just works that way, if you have an original 356 engine and put it in a replica it's still looked at as a replica, but if you put a VW engine in an original 356 it's viewed as an original 356?
I have to agree with the interior aspect. I've always thought of it this way - you spend most of your time on the inside of the car so it better be pleasing to your eye. It does bother me a little to look at the e-brake between the seats in my speedster and the hump on the floor but I get passed it. If I had the opportunity to have a JPS coupe built or have a completely custom built "TC-Mobile" with an original steel body on it I wouldn't think twice about having TC build me a car. Not to down John's coupe, it's a beautiful car. As it's been said already, regardless of how much of it's "original", if you've got a vin # you can always get more out of it if you sell it.
. . . but can you get into one for $22,850 to start? I suspect $$$ much $$$$ more when the parts and hours are all added up at a reasonable labor rate. How many man-hours will it take? What parts will be required and how available and costly are they? Plus unless you have stamped new bodies, there is a finite number of tub bodies to start with. Sure it would likely be more valuable over the long haul, but til it's said and done I think it's gonna be in the 50-60k+++ price range. Not that that's bad, just not an apples to apples comparison to the $22,850 JPS either. Heck on the Samba Rusty Tubs wants $5k for a pitiful hulk. Don't get me wrong -it's a great idea, just limited and likely more $$$$$ than you think.
TC, Gimme some GOOD hard numbers and I may well be one of your first customers.
Better yet Cory - you be the test bed for all of us. We'll all love watching the play by play right here. I know I will.
and Chuck, please put my green car back on that truck and send it on it's way. P-R-E-T-T-Y - - -P-L-E-A-S-E!!!!! THANKS.
TC, Gimme some GOOD hard numbers and I may well be one of your first customers.
Better yet Cory - you be the test bed for all of us. We'll all love watching the play by play right here. I know I will.
and Chuck, please put my green car back on that truck and send it on it's way. P-R-E-T-T-Y - - -P-L-E-A-S-E!!!!! THANKS.
This is what $300.00 gets you around here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/IMG_1565.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/IMG_1563.jpg
Another $3,000 in body work and supplies and you get a perfect body, in primer, ready to "mount" to the VW pan. Of course, you also get a small fortune's worth of genuine 356 suspension, date code wheels, brake, and drive train parts to sell on Ebay. The pedal cluster and steering box/column alone will tally up to nearly a grand. If you're not fussy about where the e-brake goes, there's a perfect e-brake assembly, cables, and brackets inside all ready for removal.
Rust runs down hill, the pans and such are being chopped out anyway, the door bottoms replaced, otherwise it's all just surface rust on the body.
You can't find a fiberglass Speedster body alone for what this steel body will end up costing when it all done and painted.
This kind of math runs throughout what I'm suggesting. Buy Porsche, build Volkswagen, sell off the rest to finance the build. Think of it as a Buffalo, all you want is the hide, everything else is up for sale.
Honestly, I have less than $2,500 in my Pre-A as it sits.
Buying clapped out shells from Ebay or The Samba isn't the way to begin ANY project. You buy from the people who sold them to the guys selling them on Ebay and The Samba.
Or not . . . doesn't really matter, does it. I've already got my two 356's.
Oh, buy the way, I just went out back and checked. The Porsche 914 has pretty much the same wheelbase as a stock Beetle. I DO like that whole targa roof thing . . . and I have two or three REALLY sweet complete VW pans . . . and there's a TON of room back there to fit this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/eng1.jpg right in. AND I already have the KEP adapter kit . . .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/IMG_1565.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/IMG_1563.jpg
Another $3,000 in body work and supplies and you get a perfect body, in primer, ready to "mount" to the VW pan. Of course, you also get a small fortune's worth of genuine 356 suspension, date code wheels, brake, and drive train parts to sell on Ebay. The pedal cluster and steering box/column alone will tally up to nearly a grand. If you're not fussy about where the e-brake goes, there's a perfect e-brake assembly, cables, and brackets inside all ready for removal.
Rust runs down hill, the pans and such are being chopped out anyway, the door bottoms replaced, otherwise it's all just surface rust on the body.
You can't find a fiberglass Speedster body alone for what this steel body will end up costing when it all done and painted.
This kind of math runs throughout what I'm suggesting. Buy Porsche, build Volkswagen, sell off the rest to finance the build. Think of it as a Buffalo, all you want is the hide, everything else is up for sale.
Honestly, I have less than $2,500 in my Pre-A as it sits.
Buying clapped out shells from Ebay or The Samba isn't the way to begin ANY project. You buy from the people who sold them to the guys selling them on Ebay and The Samba.
Or not . . . doesn't really matter, does it. I've already got my two 356's.
Oh, buy the way, I just went out back and checked. The Porsche 914 has pretty much the same wheelbase as a stock Beetle. I DO like that whole targa roof thing . . . and I have two or three REALLY sweet complete VW pans . . . and there's a TON of room back there to fit this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/eng1.jpg right in. AND I already have the KEP adapter kit . . .
ID RATHER HAVE THE JPS FIBERGLASS
Mickey and I have already agreed to disagree about something roughly similar, but I'll go on record as agreeing with John (who owns a real "B" coupe) and Gerd (who loves his JPS)- Personally, I'd prefer fiberglass to this alternative.
I've been looking for a nice 914-4 for my son. John Steele told me I'm picky (I prefer particular), but I know that rust never sleeps. There are a lot of inexpensive 914s that look nearly perfect, until you get close-ups of the seams, or the battery box, or the undercarriage. I have yet to see one that doesn't have a rust bubble starting somewhere. At this point, I'd happily pay $8K for a fiberglass replica 914 bodym with the same suspension attachment points - I'd buy a real one and strip every bit of trim, etc. off it and mount it to the fake.
I don't want to argue with TC, but I've never seen an "A" coupe that was in any condition for $300. If I could, I'd buy 10 and sell them on ebay, where totally rusted hulks with nothing left but a VIN plate go for a couple grand. Initial purchase aside, I'd have $8K+ in the body shown before I was close to being done.
In 5 years, the seams would be rusting again.
The concept is cool, but I'll believe it's possible to build for the same price when I see one done, and look at the invoice. Until then, I'm still a replica junkie.
I've been looking for a nice 914-4 for my son. John Steele told me I'm picky (I prefer particular), but I know that rust never sleeps. There are a lot of inexpensive 914s that look nearly perfect, until you get close-ups of the seams, or the battery box, or the undercarriage. I have yet to see one that doesn't have a rust bubble starting somewhere. At this point, I'd happily pay $8K for a fiberglass replica 914 bodym with the same suspension attachment points - I'd buy a real one and strip every bit of trim, etc. off it and mount it to the fake.
I don't want to argue with TC, but I've never seen an "A" coupe that was in any condition for $300. If I could, I'd buy 10 and sell them on ebay, where totally rusted hulks with nothing left but a VIN plate go for a couple grand. Initial purchase aside, I'd have $8K+ in the body shown before I was close to being done.
In 5 years, the seams would be rusting again.
The concept is cool, but I'll believe it's possible to build for the same price when I see one done, and look at the invoice. Until then, I'm still a replica junkie.
I agree, Stan. TC's idea is very cool.
Where it falls apart for me is the "math." Out here in admittedly over-priced California $300 won't buy you an A Coupe hood crest. And $3000 dollars in body work won't get a rusted 356 body ready for anything close to painting.
The A Coupes are going up in value to the point where even the leprosy patients are worth several thousand. I'm not sayin' it's right, I'm just telling you how it is here. And judging by what I read on the 356 Registry List, it's not just happening in California.
Where it falls apart for me is the "math." Out here in admittedly over-priced California $300 won't buy you an A Coupe hood crest. And $3000 dollars in body work won't get a rusted 356 body ready for anything close to painting.
The A Coupes are going up in value to the point where even the leprosy patients are worth several thousand. I'm not sayin' it's right, I'm just telling you how it is here. And judging by what I read on the 356 Registry List, it's not just happening in California.
I will point out that TC's pics are of a T-6 body I believe, so a bit less than a comparable A... But if I could find one like that for $300 in Dallas, I'd buy it and put it in front of the house instead of my pair of dancing flamingos :)
Tom,
If it was a difference of $23k for a JPS vs. $50-$60k for a complete resto from TC then that's a different story, but if TC could build me an "original" 356 (never said an A, it could be a B) for the same money, then that's why I'd do it, because it was an "original". It just leaves so many more options for resale, vintage racing, etc.... I LOVE Johns coupe! I'd consider buying one someday, you can't beat No Rust Ever, but depending on what you're looking for, all thing$ even, I'd take a completely outlawed, full caged "original" as soon as I could get one.
If it was a difference of $23k for a JPS vs. $50-$60k for a complete resto from TC then that's a different story, but if TC could build me an "original" 356 (never said an A, it could be a B) for the same money, then that's why I'd do it, because it was an "original". It just leaves so many more options for resale, vintage racing, etc.... I LOVE Johns coupe! I'd consider buying one someday, you can't beat No Rust Ever, but depending on what you're looking for, all thing$ even, I'd take a completely outlawed, full caged "original" as soon as I could get one.
Interesting idea, putting a Porsche body on a VW pan or a frame. What you don't get is an ORIGINAL car. No matter how well you do the work. You may have a VIN and you may have a metal/bondo body, but you don't have a Porsche. I want to say abortion, but I won't. I don't see any resale value in this at all. I see it as a re-bodied VW just like our fiberglass cars are. In California, at any rate, registration as a VW or as a Porsche would be illegal.
And honestly, what would the 22,000 JPS coupe be like, I also can't imagine that. I have never looked into, it but a JPS coupe, with a strong engine, has to be closer to 29-30,000 to be SWEET.
And honestly, what would the 22,000 JPS coupe be like, I also can't imagine that. I have never looked into, it but a JPS coupe, with a strong engine, has to be closer to 29-30,000 to be SWEET.
I agree with Dale. These types of modifications (or more rudely termed as bastardization) add to making your car more of a niche product (reduced market). This is no reflection on anyones personal taste or fabrication skills.
On one of my 911s ('81) I had replaced the cookie-cutter wheels with some 3-piece racing wheels. They looked similar to BBS honeycomb wheels. Polished bead with center painted to match the body (white), and Porsche crest center-caps - VERY cool looking (I thought). I sold the cookie-cutters.
However, when it came to eventually selling that car, I could not get top dollar because of the fact that those wheels (while MUCH COOLER looking than the cookie-cutters) were not factory. P-car buyers are picky that way!
...I'm just saying...
On one of my 911s ('81) I had replaced the cookie-cutter wheels with some 3-piece racing wheels. They looked similar to BBS honeycomb wheels. Polished bead with center painted to match the body (white), and Porsche crest center-caps - VERY cool looking (I thought). I sold the cookie-cutters.
However, when it came to eventually selling that car, I could not get top dollar because of the fact that those wheels (while MUCH COOLER looking than the cookie-cutters) were not factory. P-car buyers are picky that way!
...I'm just saying...
"In California, at any rate, registration as a VW or as a Porsche would be illegal."
Not so. The 356 is a unibody, no separate pan. The VIN is stamped into the body shell in five different places and tagged on the hinge cover plate. Taking the VW spine, fabricating an out rigger/perimeter, installing pan sections, and welding it under the body to complete the unibody structure once again is a simple suspension upgrade. Since the body in the rear and the shifter rod are in conflict with each other, you have to cut away a good portion of the rear (including the area which carries the VW Stamped VIN and trans mount). You're nor simple swapping a pan, your re-building a custom unit to support the suspension mounting points and re-assembling the unibody structure. Totally legal on a unibody car, anywhere.
"I don't see any resale value in this at all."
WHAT? You wouldn't but a tricked out 356 with a custom chassis and BUILT VW powerplant, but you WOULD buy a fiberglass fake? AND you assume that the fake would have a higher resale than the custom Outlaw (or abortion, as you refer to it) . . . ?
"P-car buyers are picky that way!"
The resulting car wouldn't appeal to Porsche nuts! But anyone else in the world, and A LOT of people new to Porsches/356's would LOVE it! Look at the growing popularity of Outlaws.
We just have to agree to disagree on this point, I guess.
Put it this way:
A steel '32 Ford Coupe body on a custom built chassis . . . ? NOPE! An abortion ! ! !
A fiberglass fake '32 Ford Coupe body on a chassis from a different make? YES ! ! ! Now you're talking!
WHAT !?! !?! !?! !?! !?!
OK . . . here's the new deal . . .
You Lads discuss this amoungst yourselves, I'm done posting on this topic. I'll work on the Pre-A this year and post pics as I go. Outline the processes and procedures in words and pictures as I go along. I'll bring the finished car to the Carlisle and everyone can see it/drive it/play with it. If anyone decides that they like it and want a steel coupe for themselves, we can work out a deal for building a car right there!
That ought satisfy and convince everyone involved.
Not so. The 356 is a unibody, no separate pan. The VIN is stamped into the body shell in five different places and tagged on the hinge cover plate. Taking the VW spine, fabricating an out rigger/perimeter, installing pan sections, and welding it under the body to complete the unibody structure once again is a simple suspension upgrade. Since the body in the rear and the shifter rod are in conflict with each other, you have to cut away a good portion of the rear (including the area which carries the VW Stamped VIN and trans mount). You're nor simple swapping a pan, your re-building a custom unit to support the suspension mounting points and re-assembling the unibody structure. Totally legal on a unibody car, anywhere.
"I don't see any resale value in this at all."
WHAT? You wouldn't but a tricked out 356 with a custom chassis and BUILT VW powerplant, but you WOULD buy a fiberglass fake? AND you assume that the fake would have a higher resale than the custom Outlaw (or abortion, as you refer to it) . . . ?
"P-car buyers are picky that way!"
The resulting car wouldn't appeal to Porsche nuts! But anyone else in the world, and A LOT of people new to Porsches/356's would LOVE it! Look at the growing popularity of Outlaws.
We just have to agree to disagree on this point, I guess.
Put it this way:
A steel '32 Ford Coupe body on a custom built chassis . . . ? NOPE! An abortion ! ! !
A fiberglass fake '32 Ford Coupe body on a chassis from a different make? YES ! ! ! Now you're talking!
WHAT !?! !?! !?! !?! !?!
OK . . . here's the new deal . . .
You Lads discuss this amoungst yourselves, I'm done posting on this topic. I'll work on the Pre-A this year and post pics as I go. Outline the processes and procedures in words and pictures as I go along. I'll bring the finished car to the Carlisle and everyone can see it/drive it/play with it. If anyone decides that they like it and want a steel coupe for themselves, we can work out a deal for building a car right there!
That ought satisfy and convince everyone involved.
TC, I really look forward to seeing your progress unfold on the car... How about starting a new thread that you can update with pics and comments as you go along. I think more than a few of us would like to see cost tally's along the way. Not pure cost mind you, but what a client would expect to pay. At some point, it will get obvious to everyone whether its a viable deal or not.
Just to make my personal stand, I am firmly in the steel bodied, real interior camp on this if it ends up being comparable dollars. I don't think TC can compete with the stock JPS base coupe/price. I also don't think John will sell many. I do think he can compete in the performance outlaw category that would bump the JPS price well into the mid $30s.
I know from rough figures when I built my Chevelle, I spent 1/3 to achieve a basic, rust free car, 1/3 on drive train and rolling chassis, and a final 1/3 on paint/interior/accessories. You can balance that however it works best, but it seems feasible to me that a good shop, NOT pressed for time as TC pointed out, could hit mid $30s on a metal bodied REPLICA. I think the real 356 thing may have muddied the waters a bit on the discussion... No one expects this car to show at a 356 Registry event.
Regardless, I think TC and others as he pointed out have a good idea and it will be fun to watch it play out and see if it works!
Just to make my personal stand, I am firmly in the steel bodied, real interior camp on this if it ends up being comparable dollars. I don't think TC can compete with the stock JPS base coupe/price. I also don't think John will sell many. I do think he can compete in the performance outlaw category that would bump the JPS price well into the mid $30s.
I know from rough figures when I built my Chevelle, I spent 1/3 to achieve a basic, rust free car, 1/3 on drive train and rolling chassis, and a final 1/3 on paint/interior/accessories. You can balance that however it works best, but it seems feasible to me that a good shop, NOT pressed for time as TC pointed out, could hit mid $30s on a metal bodied REPLICA. I think the real 356 thing may have muddied the waters a bit on the discussion... No one expects this car to show at a 356 Registry event.
Regardless, I think TC and others as he pointed out have a good idea and it will be fun to watch it play out and see if it works!
TC,
To take a rusty, bondoed shell that was meant to be a unibody and make it structurally sound on a VW pan has to be a real engineering challenge in itself. To do this as a project for yourself may make sense, but to try to produce a few of these cars and sell them to make a profit seems to me to be a tough task. Labor cost alone at the going shop rate is going to be huge. My guess is that a customer approved finished product allowing for adequate profit for you and your crew is going to minimally be in the 40-50K range. I also think you underestimate the snooty factor of the porsche clan. A few may find your car more acceptable than a replica, but only by a narrow margin. I don't want to discourage you, as I am now curious myself as to how structurally sound, cosmetically appealing, and economically (using honest labor rates) a project like this could be done. Go for it and I will be the first to applaud when you prove us all wrong.
To take a rusty, bondoed shell that was meant to be a unibody and make it structurally sound on a VW pan has to be a real engineering challenge in itself. To do this as a project for yourself may make sense, but to try to produce a few of these cars and sell them to make a profit seems to me to be a tough task. Labor cost alone at the going shop rate is going to be huge. My guess is that a customer approved finished product allowing for adequate profit for you and your crew is going to minimally be in the 40-50K range. I also think you underestimate the snooty factor of the porsche clan. A few may find your car more acceptable than a replica, but only by a narrow margin. I don't want to discourage you, as I am now curious myself as to how structurally sound, cosmetically appealing, and economically (using honest labor rates) a project like this could be done. Go for it and I will be the first to applaud when you prove us all wrong.
Original is as original does, as Mr. Gump might say. If it was not made in Zufenhausen, by Germans, during a certain period on the calendar, then it is not original, no matter what you do, nor how well you do it. And this is notwithstanding what said Germans actually did, which was use a bunch of old VW parts. I had an A Coupe once, and you could find the VW symbol embossed or otherwise applied to many, many of its parts. You can call it "snooty factor" or whatever. To be orginal and command the prices now evident, it has to be old, no matter how new it looks. It's called collecting and it just is. Making something new that looks, feels, sounds and generally has the gestault (?) of the old cars, using whatever technolgy is at hand (fiberglass, steel, cardboard . . .) is, as we all know, a very exciting and affordable enterprise. Original and replica are two very different things, all wrapped around the genius, if you will allow, of F. Porsche and his fellows and what they dreamed up -- the "soul of the car". So much of the soul of the original is replicated by the good builders these days, IMHO builders who "get it", that it works. To me, a thing that looks like a Ferrari, and has a Fiero inside has missed a great deal.
Very good thread, BTW. Would love to see what TC actually gets together here, and await the pics and progress reports. Sounds cool.
Very good thread, BTW. Would love to see what TC actually gets together here, and await the pics and progress reports. Sounds cool.
I have seen 2 356 coupes converted to a VW pan. While either or both were very well done, the net of it is a bastard was created. While if all you want to do is drive a car then I suppose this might be an acceptable practice. But keep in mind you may always have title problems with the car, you may not be able to title it in some states, or may be only able to title it as a "salvage" vehicle, which is the kiss of death on any real value. You will not be able to vintage race it in most associations of which I am aware. Insurance becomes problematic, which is it a VW or a Porsche?
From a pragmatic point of view either of the cars was restorable before the undercarriage was gutted out. Value of a well restored coupe is $10-15-20-30-40K? depenging upon how well it was done. Value of one of these Frankensteins? One was on Samba a couple of years ago for a long time and was bought for under $3k finally.....it looked good, nice red paint, decent driver as the story goes... the second one was local, I ended up buying the whole drive line as well as the front end...the car only had moderate rust, would have been easily restorable....how to turn a $15k car into $2500 in one eazy session with a cutting torch...makes me ill to think about it....oh by the way, the guy who cut it up bought it within 30 miles of Houston for $500 and all he was doing in his mind was cleaning up junk....he recaptured his "investment" and more from me in what I bought alone.....so he thought he was doing well....and doing the right thing...he got the old clunker back on the road...
From a pragmatic point of view either of the cars was restorable before the undercarriage was gutted out. Value of a well restored coupe is $10-15-20-30-40K? depenging upon how well it was done. Value of one of these Frankensteins? One was on Samba a couple of years ago for a long time and was bought for under $3k finally.....it looked good, nice red paint, decent driver as the story goes... the second one was local, I ended up buying the whole drive line as well as the front end...the car only had moderate rust, would have been easily restorable....how to turn a $15k car into $2500 in one eazy session with a cutting torch...makes me ill to think about it....oh by the way, the guy who cut it up bought it within 30 miles of Houston for $500 and all he was doing in his mind was cleaning up junk....he recaptured his "investment" and more from me in what I bought alone.....so he thought he was doing well....and doing the right thing...he got the old clunker back on the road...
TC,
Since the pan is the weakest point anyway, why not use a tube chassis in it's place?
What do you think would be involved in doing this to any early model, rusted out 911 or 912?
Since the pan is the weakest point anyway, why not use a tube chassis in it's place?
What do you think would be involved in doing this to any early model, rusted out 911 or 912?
"I'll bring the finished car to the Carlisle and everyone can see it/drive it/play with it."
TC, I can't wait to drive it.
Hell, yeah! And while I'm out in your car, you can drive mine. Then, over a few pints of delicious and refreshing beverage, we can watch the line form as our esteemed colleagues have a go of their own.
A "Battle of the Bastards," as it were.
I'm gonna go tube chassis, though, with the pan only kept for minimal cosmetic effect and bubble-strengthening continutiy. It'll be supported from within and without, like the old Jags, tubing off the pan and body with one to three-inch riggers of 3/4" box to an 1 5/8 DOM cage. I'm gonna find me one'a'them three-point-tews, too.
It'll be easier to blast and paint that way, methinks. And really hard to kill.
TC, I can't wait to drive it.
Hell, yeah! And while I'm out in your car, you can drive mine. Then, over a few pints of delicious and refreshing beverage, we can watch the line form as our esteemed colleagues have a go of their own.
A "Battle of the Bastards," as it were.
I'm gonna go tube chassis, though, with the pan only kept for minimal cosmetic effect and bubble-strengthening continutiy. It'll be supported from within and without, like the old Jags, tubing off the pan and body with one to three-inch riggers of 3/4" box to an 1 5/8 DOM cage. I'm gonna find me one'a'them three-point-tews, too.
It'll be easier to blast and paint that way, methinks. And really hard to kill.
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http://www.bmh-ltd.com/
build complete tr6 and mgb and mini shells, mgb about 10k bucks
the skills and gear are there
perhaps they could expand and do 356 work
just a thoughr
jeff
build complete tr6 and mgb and mini shells, mgb about 10k bucks
the skills and gear are there
perhaps they could expand and do 356 work
just a thoughr
jeff
I saw this car on eBay this afternoon, #300137080120 and to me, this would be the litmus paper for the real v. replica coupe discussion here.
The condition is fair, it is priced accordingly and it is the last model year 356 and an SC, so it is top of the line. All important things in the P-car world I've been told.
The condition is fair, it is priced accordingly and it is the last model year 356 and an SC, so it is top of the line. All important things in the P-car world I've been told.
Tom,
If TC builds a coupe and you like it and decide to buy it, please keep me in mind for first dibs on your JPS Couplica.
ECB
If TC builds a coupe and you like it and decide to buy it, please keep me in mind for first dibs on your JPS Couplica.
ECB
Paul, here is a comparison very much like the one that drove me to start this thread. If I had the money today, I believe this would be my choice. http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/0/1/88941001.htm
Dear Chuck,
I have been reading this thread, and I know where you are coming from. I was trying to decide between getting a decent real 356 for the amount on that ad, or getting a JPS coupe for about the same money.
I decided to go with the JPS coupe for personal reasons, i.e, at this time I just don't have the time to make sure that I keep the real 356 running well and making sure that I check for rust and make sure that if rust develops I can take care of it.
With a JPS coupe you don't have to worry about rust, and supposedly with the new components, things should not require as much care as a 50 year old car. Maybe once I have the time and the money, I might get a real 356 just for my toy, but at this time, a JPS coupe is a better choice for me. Again, this is a very personal reason and I don't think there is any right or wrong choice, it is a matter what works for you at this time.
I have been reading this thread, and I know where you are coming from. I was trying to decide between getting a decent real 356 for the amount on that ad, or getting a JPS coupe for about the same money.
I decided to go with the JPS coupe for personal reasons, i.e, at this time I just don't have the time to make sure that I keep the real 356 running well and making sure that I check for rust and make sure that if rust develops I can take care of it.
With a JPS coupe you don't have to worry about rust, and supposedly with the new components, things should not require as much care as a 50 year old car. Maybe once I have the time and the money, I might get a real 356 just for my toy, but at this time, a JPS coupe is a better choice for me. Again, this is a very personal reason and I don't think there is any right or wrong choice, it is a matter what works for you at this time.
In case anyone is wondering it's gonna take one hell of a job to out do this new Green Couplica - I'm lovin it so far. A few tweaks to sort out, but overall I think it's exceeded my expectations.
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Another fine example. '62B 90hp. Looks to sell today under $30k on ebay #170134715926
I agree with Paul; I've been kind-of watching for original coupes for a while, now, and decent cars from '60 - '65 which are being driven but maybe still need a little work are going for $20K - $30K (tops). "Restored" (whatever that means) versions tend to be a bit higher, but no where near the cost of a convertible. Just passed on a very nice T-6 coupe here in Massachusetts, pretty much rust-free (for now) with a decent interior and nice-sounding SC engine for $24K. Very seldom see an "A" coupe for sale around here, and they tend to all be "Restored" and are priced a bit higher.
I just remember all the work (and money!) it took to restore/work on antique cars when I was much younger, and another large amount of work to keep them rust-free (and the angst I felt whenever I found another rust bubble). If I'm going to work that hard again on a car, I'll only buy it as an investment and expect to get at least a 25% premium over my purchase price in 5 years.
On the other hand, for about the same money as that T-6 coupe, I could get a Couplica, drive it and enjoy it for 5 years and probably (seeing how much demand there currently is for them and banking on inflation) come out close to breaking even when I sold it.
I just remember all the work (and money!) it took to restore/work on antique cars when I was much younger, and another large amount of work to keep them rust-free (and the angst I felt whenever I found another rust bubble). If I'm going to work that hard again on a car, I'll only buy it as an investment and expect to get at least a 25% premium over my purchase price in 5 years.
On the other hand, for about the same money as that T-6 coupe, I could get a Couplica, drive it and enjoy it for 5 years and probably (seeing how much demand there currently is for them and banking on inflation) come out close to breaking even when I sold it.
Yep, I think this threads about run its course... Its pretty evident that you can buy a solid B or C coupe with fresh paint, little-no rust, freshened interior, and a solid drivetrain (either original 1600 regular or non-original 90hp) near or under $30k. No one on this site would turn it down or be ashamed to drive it.
VAST majority of folks want to drive their cars worry free and leave any wrenching beyond troubleshooting a loose wire or maybe changing the oil to a qualified mechanic. Absolutely ripe for a Couplica, which is a beautiful, high-end option that I and everyone else would love to drive.
Looks like there's a few that still value being able to stick a magnet to the car and likely get as much joy out of working on it as driving it. Decades ago I used to own my own shop, and there is little I enjoy more (at least, not with my clothes on :) than wrenching on an old car... for hours. Most of my driving is done to test the last thing I installed or adjusted, and it gives me just as big a SEG when it all works as the guy that just picked his up from the shop and it purrs all the way home.
Ain't it great to live where we truly enjoy the freedom of choice.
VAST majority of folks want to drive their cars worry free and leave any wrenching beyond troubleshooting a loose wire or maybe changing the oil to a qualified mechanic. Absolutely ripe for a Couplica, which is a beautiful, high-end option that I and everyone else would love to drive.
Looks like there's a few that still value being able to stick a magnet to the car and likely get as much joy out of working on it as driving it. Decades ago I used to own my own shop, and there is little I enjoy more (at least, not with my clothes on :) than wrenching on an old car... for hours. Most of my driving is done to test the last thing I installed or adjusted, and it gives me just as big a SEG when it all works as the guy that just picked his up from the shop and it purrs all the way home.
Ain't it great to live where we truly enjoy the freedom of choice.