Rear Axle Nut Torque

217lbs. plus and continue until you can align the cotter pin holes. Me, I use a 4' pipe on a 1/2" breaker bar knowing that eventually someone will eventually curse me out .

A lot of us go even tighter than that.  I torque mine to around 250 ft. lbs. and then adjust for the next hole in the axle for the cotter pin.

217 pounds is the absolute minimum you should run.

Even my "New Speedster/Spyder Delivery Checklist" up under Resources/Knowledge Base says 260 - 275 ft. lbs.

https://www.speedsterowners.co...acceptance-checklist

^^^ What Gordon said^^^

If you search you'll find we've had this discussion before, and most problems with rear drums/hubs come from NOT ENOUGH TORQUE!  217 ft. lbs. and then to the cotter pin hole (and then insert pin) is enough for a stock Beetle, but even a complete stocker driven hard can destroy the drum splines if not tight enough.  IIrc it was Mr. Berg that discovered this some 40 + years ago with a stock '67 bug he was driving as his every day car.

I'm from the high performance side of the VW world and EVERONE I know that runs any sort of hot street car goes 250 ft. lbs. PLUS- any less and you run the danger of wiping out the drum (or hub if you have rear discs) splines. Both the axles and castle nuts are pretty tough material and will withstand substantially more than even these torque figures.  I've heard of someone (our own Danny Piperato maybe?? _{did I spell it right Danny?}) going to 400 ft. lbs. with no ill effects.

Friends with fiberglass offroad buggies who beat them offroad all tighten the rear axle nuts to 280 +.

I'm pretty sure that in 1 of the later model (I think Bentley) manuals 250 ft. lbs. is the # quoted- I'll look later if I have time.  I know I've seen it somewhere...

EDIT- I found it- orange Bentley Beetle, Super Beetle, Karmann Ghia manual, Chapter 5 (Brakes and Wheels), page 21 right bottom corner-

"Using a 36 mm wrench, install the castellated nut.  Then, with the car on the ground, torque the nut to 35 mkg (253 ft. lb.) and install new cotter pin.

Caution---                                                                                                             The nut must be torqued to specifications to avoid destructive spline wear."

‘Course, if Danny is whipping his hubs up to 400 ft. Lbs, he may need Paul Bunyan and his pet Gorilla to get them off again, but he’s a pretty resourceful guy…..  He’s got a moosey impact wrench.

@JasonC if you don’t have a 300 ft. Lb. Torque wrench, just use a 36mm socket on a 1/2” drive bat handle with a 6’ length of pipe over the handle.  Go weigh yourself (bathroom scale) then divide 250 lbs. (your target torque) by your weight.  That is how far from the hub nut you need to stand on the piece of pipe in feet.  Mark the pipe that far from the nut, steady yourself and simply stand on that mark until it stops turning.  Don’t bounce up and down.  You may have to go slightly farther out on the pipe to clear the cotter pin hole and that’s OK - You won’t hurt anything.

Good luck…

Thank you for the excellent advice there Gordon, ALB and Alan!

Jason

@ALB posted:

I've heard of someone (our own Danny Piperato maybe?? _{did I spell it right Danny?}) going to 400 ft. lbs. with no ill effects.

That's me, and that figure is just because that was the rating of my air impact gun (I've since gotten a Milwaukee 18v Fuel impact that is the cat's meow). Somebody (Rick?) accurately pointed out that a 400 lb toque wrench is going to be 3/4" drive and probably $500. Just get it spot-torque (torque it until you see spots).

This is one of those instances when more is more.

You won't strip the stub-shaft or the 36 mm nut. Use a good impact to put it on, make sure it's tighter than you can get it by hand, and never worry again.

Interestingly, my 1966 MGB has splined hubs on all four wheels and they are preloaded by simply hammering the spinner a couple of licks with a copper hammer.  But what strips the splines is not lack of preload, but lack off grease on the splines.

Jason

Everyone should own one of these. I had broken a couple of Craftsman 1/2” breaker bars before I got one of these. Cheap and I have never failed to get one off using this and a hand sledge.

Tip on using this tool. Put a breaker bar on it, and have someone apply pressure before hitting. This keeps the tool from flying free on rebound.

Years ago we were down in Flagler Beach and decided to put new rubber on the Speedster. While waiting for the tires to arrive, the genius mechanic explained that he knew something about vw's and gave things a tweak here and there. I winced as he tightened the rear axle nuts with a powerful impact wrench. A few years later I needed to get those nuts off and it took a calculated 600 ft. lbs. + to get them off. I can't remember the exact number. I examined the threads on the axles carefully and was pissed to find the threads on both sides were damaged to the extent replacement was necessary. YMMV.

Once again, a TorqueMeister will let you precisely torque the nut to whatever value you want with little effort.  It is a great tool.

I never said 400 ft. lbs. That's for GLAND NUTS!

@David Stroud IM Roadster D Wow, 600 is excessive! I think I calculated 800 or so on my engine gland nut! Luckily, no threads were harmed!

I DID say that the VW "factory spec" of 217 ft. lbs. is NOT enough.

I believe I recommended 250-300 ft. lbs.

I run them up with an impact(electric or air), but I do not sit there hammering on it to tighten them.

I absolutely DO final tightening on the ground, with a wheel chock under the tire, a 36mm socket and breaker bar(3/4" drive, I've snapped MANY 1/2" drives). E-brake OFF, you don't want ANYTHING at all to prevent seating of the hub, drum, and spacers. I use a 3 foot aluminum "cheater" bar, and lean on it at the end. I DO NOT stand on it.

Then I go to the next hole for the cotter pin.

I also DO NOT use the cheap spacer that comes with the seal kits. That thing is cheesy and will squish, then you get play, then splines strip. I re-use the old VW spacer/washer, they are hardened.

I never thought about e-brake off.  That is a good suggestion.

I think hitting it with a powerful air impact  will do a lot more damage then tightening with a long pipe on a 3/4 inch drive breaker bar .

you can feel something with the long pipe but most guys with Air impacts just keep wacking. It with no idea how tight it is ,

Do any of you guys lube the threads before torquing?

@LI-Rick posted:

Do any of you guys lube the threads before torquing?

That would be wrong. I wipe the threads carefully, spray them with brake-kleen, and clean the nuts in the parts washer, then assemble.

@DannyP posted:

I run them up with an impact(electric or air), but I do not sit there hammering on it to tighten them.

@imperial posted:

most guys with Air impacts just keep wacking.

That's the key for me. Don't keep hammering away with a decent impact.

I worked in a service station that did a LOT of tire work when I was young-'n-studly. The cardinal rule was "no hammering away on lugs, dipstick - finish tightening by hand", and the corollary - if you woof on the oil filter, you get to be the one to take it off when it comes back for the next oil change.

A couple of ugga-duggas, check by hard, and then to the next hole on the nut. I'll not be banging away with the Milwaukee M18 (have I mentioned my new tool? I think I did!) - it's too strong, unless it's on the "3" (of 4) setting.

@DannyP posted:

I never said 400 ft. lbs. That's for GLAND NUTS!

I stand corrected... Stan did it!

@ALB posted:

I stand corrected... Stan did it!

Here I stand. I can do no other.

Danny wrote: I never said 400 ft. lbs. That's for GLAND NUTS!

I did break a chrome moly gland nut on a fresh engine with a 600 lb battery Op impact. It didn't even go:  ugga-duggas  it went just one "ugg" and broke off in, the crankshaft. I first thought  "I'm so so porked" stuck a finger in the threaded crank and the glad nut piece screwed right out .

@Stan Galat posted:

That would be wrong. I wipe the threads carefully, spray them with brake-kleen, and clean the nuts in the parts washer, then assemble.

Stan, why do you think that would be wrong? Is it because we are assuming the torque spec printed in the Bentley manual is a dry torque spec?
There is no doubt that a lubricated fastener will reach proper bolt stretch with less torque and more repeatability than dry. Since we are over torquing these axle nuts anyway, to prevent stripping out the splines, would it not make sense to use a lubricant to reach the greater tension without increasing the torque required?

@LI-Rick posted:

Stan, why do you think that would be wrong? Is it because we are assuming the torque spec printed in the Bentley manual is a dry torque spec?
There is no doubt that a lubricated fastener will reach proper bolt stretch with less torque and more repeatability than dry. Since we are over torquing these axle nuts anyway, to prevent stripping out the splines, would it not make sense to use a lubricant to reach the greater tension without increasing the torque required?

Sure.

My problem is never undertightening anything. I possess what Art Thraen once called "Chevy hands".

Lubed threads are an open invitation for me to snap or strip the fastener. If I tighten the fastener with an impact and have lubed threads, I may never get the thing apart again. I don't trust myself. The Sainted German Engineers (and their 'murican counterparts) say dry, so I do it dry (ish). I did way I use parts cleaner, which is a petroleum distillate.

I see your point, however.

Mine is that unless this is a rod bolt, or the case halves, or a head bolt - I'm not too bound up with what Bentley says is the right torque for a bolt. There are places for a torque wrench, and places to just get something tight. Lube would help me get it tighter, but I'd just overdo it.

Your mileage may vary.

@Alan Merklin posted:

Danny wrote: I never said 400 ft. lbs. That's for GLAND NUTS!

I did break a chrome moly gland nut on a fresh engine with a 600 lb battery Op impact. It didn't even go:  ugga-duggas  it went just one "ugg" and broke off in, the crankshaft. I first thought  "I'm so so porked" stuck a finger in the threaded crank and the glad nut piece screwed right out .

Been there, done that. It really is an OH Crap moment, but the same thing the broken part simply screwed back out. Now I keep a couple new Gland Nuts lying around the shop.

@Derrek Johnson posted:

Been there, done that. It really is an OH Crap moment, but the same thing the broken part simply screwed back out. Now I keep a couple new Gland Nuts lying around the shop.

Was it a stock or chromoly gland nut you broke?

This is the gland nut I use.

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1360.htm

I have a 38mm socket which fits, but a 1.5" works too.

I'll bet the ones that snap are sourced from EMPI.

@Stan Galat posted:

That would be wrong. I wipe the threads carefully, spray them with brake-kleen, and clean the nuts in the parts washer, then assemble.

Indeed, unless otherwise specified, all torque values are based on clean dry threads.

Incidentally, torque is not a very accurate method of preloading a connection and carries an error of +/- 25%.

Jason

@Alan Merklin posted:

Danny wrote: I never said 400 ft. lbs. That's for GLAND NUTS!

I did break a chrome moly gland nut on a fresh engine with a 600 lb battery Op impact. It didn't even go:  ugga-duggas  it went just one "ugg" and broke off in, the crankshaft. I first thought  "I'm so so porked" stuck a finger in the threaded crank and the glad nut piece screwed right out .

The gland nut is made from high-strength steel and is somewhat brittle.  My guess is that it would not have broken if torqued conventionally; hammering from the impact gun simply shattered it.

Jason

@LI-Rick linked me to an interesting Samba thread about this very subject (axle nut torque). In it was this quote:

remember, this is an M24 X 1.5 thread. 357Ft/Lbs is only about half the torque you typically see for even a low grade, medium alloy, class 8.8 fastener tightened approximately 85% of the way to yield.

400 ft/lbs is not too much. You do you - I've never had a spline strip.

I've also been thinking a lot about Rick's question regarding lubed threads. Almost all torque specs are for dry threads. As an aside, torque is a bad way to attempt to get to 85% yield.

Back to the dry-thread thing, I'm advocating for something outside of the specs, so I'm not sure why I am hard-core about the threads being dry. I'm not the guy who gets bound up about torque specs on anything besides the internals of the engine anyhow.

I'm unconcerned with yield and all that want these particular nuts anyhow. I just want them to be as tight as they can be without wrecking the threads on the shaft and/or being impossible to take off. 400 (ish) ft/lb dry or 350 (ish) lubed, and then to the next hole isn't going to wreck the fasteners. Now that I've got the super-impact, I'm not afraid of 400 (ish) lubed, because I'll be able to get them off.

The most important thing (to me) is the splines. I've seen too many rounded splines.

... but again - you do you.

@Stan Galat posted:

@LI-Rick linked me to an interesting Samba thread about this very subject (axle nut torque). In it was this quote:

remember, this is an M24 X 1.5 thread. 357Ft/Lbs is only about half the torque you typically see for even a low grade, medium alloy, class 8.8 fastener tightened approximately 85% of the way to yield.

400 ft/lbs is not too much. You do you - I've never had a spline strip.

Yes, but a typical M24 nut has more thread engagement compared to a castellated nut.  So the torque value for the castle nut should be reduced accordingly.

Jason

@JasonC posted:

Yes, but a typical M24 nut has more thread engagement compared to a castellated nut.  So the torque value for the castle nut should be reduced accordingly.

Jason

Great. You do you.

@JasonC posted:

Yes, but a typical M24 nut has more thread engagement compared to a castellated nut.  So the torque value for the castle nut should be reduced accordingly.

Jason

Any idea what grade of fastener a factory axle nut is specified?

Nope. I don't know the material or grade of the nut, but Weddle sells new ones for $6.43 each.

https://weddleindustries.com/p...-501-221/311-501-221