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Replace Starter or Not?

D dinubadave
Okay, I'm driving home yesterday, leaving Pismo's 65 degree weather and hitting 100 plus right over the hill. No air, no top, just a dumb redhead driving home at mid-day. I stopped at the James Dean monument for a cold drink. Went back to start 'crusty' and nothing, not even a 'click', this is about an hour and 15 min into the drive for all that aren't familar with the area, and I mean it's HOT, (I wish anyone who wanted to move the Pismo meet to Paso could have been with me). At anyrate, I checked out all the wires and they were tight, fuses were good, and the starter didn't feel that hot. I pushed it down the little bump of a hill and got it started; once home, I tried it again, and nothing, again, not even a 'click'. Yet, after setting for a couple of hours, it started right up and it's been working great since.

I'm thinking the starter got hot needed more juice, so I'm kind of thinking about running a heavy direct wire from the positive side of the battery, and mounting the exsiting power supply to a relay to pop it over. This would give me a full 12 volts at the starter and hopefully solve the starter problem.

In addition to the above, I have noticed that when it's hot it will sometimes flood, but when it's cold, it starts on a dime. This makes me think that maybe a high torque starter might solve both problems?

Any suggestions?
1957 Intermeccanica(Speedster)
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D dinubadave
Okay, I'm driving home yesterday, leaving Pismo's 65 degree weather and hitting 100 plus right over the hill. No air, no top, just a dumb redhead driving home at mid-day. I stopped at the James Dean monument for a cold drink. Went back to start 'crusty' and nothing, not even a 'click', this is about an hour and 15 min into the drive for all that aren't familar with the area, and I mean it's HOT, (I wish anyone who wanted to move the Pismo meet to Paso could have been with me). At anyrate, I checked out all the wires and they were tight, fuses were good, and the starter didn't feel that hot. I pushed it down the little bump of a hill and got it started; once home, I tried it again, and nothing, again, not even a 'click'. Yet, after setting for a couple of hours, it started right up and it's been working great since.

I'm thinking the starter got hot needed more juice, so I'm kind of thinking about running a heavy direct wire from the positive side of the battery, and mounting the exsiting power supply to a relay to pop it over. This would give me a full 12 volts at the starter and hopefully solve the starter problem.

In addition to the above, I have noticed that when it's hot it will sometimes flood, but when it's cold, it starts on a dime. This makes me think that maybe a high torque starter might solve both problems?

Any suggestions?
D dinubadave
Hi Alan,

Possibly a loose ground. I don't think it's a dead spot, I drove it home (another hour plus) in over 100 degree weather, then parked it in the drive. Immediately, I tried to start it, nothing, just like it did earlier; I waited two hours and it started fine and has continued to do so (the car was not moved or rocked). I believe it's heat related.

I checked all the wires and connections (switch, fuse box, starter, and battery), everything is tight.

Mango, I did tap the starter solenoid when I was stuck. It didn't help there, but I'm not saying it couldn't be the solenoid either.

Dave
FM Former Member
I had a starter problem on a Ford pickup that exhibited the exact same characteristics as your speedy. In my case, the long headers virtually enclosed the starter motor. The Ford mechanic used the term "heat soak" to describe the condition. It seems to be related to a starter that is in fact dying, but not dead yet. Sometimes the internal insulation starts to wear out and heat can cause parts to expand and short out a few windings. So then the motor pulls even more amps to make up for the loss and more amps creates even more heat. I finally got a good factory rebuilt starter and never had the problem again.

I've had a "high torque" starter in speedy from day one. Just one of those peace of mind things.
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
"I have noticed that when it's hot it will sometimes flood, but when it's cold, it starts on a dime. This makes me think that maybe a high torque starter might solve both problems? "

Nah......You've got two different problems going on there.

The flooding is because the fuel is boiling due to heat soak either in the float bowls (it causes fuel to boil out of the float bowls, overflow them and run down the intake manifolds causing a hot, super-rich condition) or the fuel hoses (they tend to be run close to the headers and the boiling fuel causes air bubbles in the hoses that have to be pumped out by the fuel pump).

The "nothing happens when I hit the key when hot" is more what Dave describes - the starter heat soaks and either doesn't have enough poop to turn over a hot, tight engine or the heat causes the bearings/seals to get tight and cause mechanical resistance to the armature. A Starter rebuild usually fixes that. I don't think any of these engines ever need a "hi-torque" starter - they simply don't have high enough compression ratios to justify one.
FM Former Member
Sorry, Gordon, I disagree. Dave, where is your battery, and how long and what gauge are your battery cables? What is your displacement, what is your compression ratio?

A couple years ago I had an intermittent hot-start problem. It wasn't the starter, it was the battery, but my battery is mounted in the engine compartment. Upon changing a good, not very old battery, problem solved. Battery was fully charged and handled a load test ok, just didn't like 90+ heat!

My compression is 9.8:1 , but the starter is being spun with a lawn tractor battery, size U-1. IMHO, the whole system is on the ragged edge. Last year I ended up with a IMI-101 gear reduction starter. Works PERFECTLY, every time. Not trying to rain on you Gordon, just relaying my experience.

FM Former Member
You're heat soaking. A rebuild on this starter might take care of it, but a good hi-torque starter cures the problem forever. The japanese based gear-reduction starters are outstanding. I have one in our diesel pickup (I believe it was mitsubishi internals). Spins that big Ford diesel like a turbine.

angela
FM Former Member


Easy fix to eliminate the problems with having the battery so far away from the starter:
Add a relay. I got mine from either Pep Boys or Harley Davidson. Pep Boys has them for headlight relays, Harley uses them as Starter relays. They are both the same. As I remember it's a 35 amp. Wire it the same way as you would when adding HD headlights. That way the power goes directly from the Battery without traveling back and forth to and from the Ignition switch on the Dash before hitting the starter solenoid.
Also...
Make sure to run a ground strap between the chassis (or where ever the battery is grounded) and the Transaxle. The stock VW ground strap works good here.

Greg
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