Roll cage in progress --- FINALLY!

There are new photos in the bin. Probably about twenty of them, many detailing the building of the roll cage in Projekt Hoopty. I tried to put a good general description with each one, and most of them came out pretty well.
In the first one, you can see the mangled piece of connective metal tubing over the shift coupler has been removed and replaced. The wall-thickness on that single piece is .25 because of its location. Before that got cut, Jim welded two plate gussets onto the torsion tube to distribute the frame weight and leveled the car with a floor jack.
The gussets have been there for a long time now, because they served the reverse purpose of supporting the torsion while he cut three inches out of both sides of it a month or so back. I think I'm inclined to leave the gussets, just for that much more lateral support.
The door bars are the other major change, and the only remarkable thing about them is the tubing is not seamed at all. It cost a little more, but I got 60 feet of it in three different diameters for about $150. It's supposed to be the best thing short of chrome-molly for strength, and with the sections I need being very short, that works well for me.
If you look closely, the only notch Jim cut in the bodywork was high on the driver's door sill. Everything else lined up neatly without interfering with the doors.
I'm really starting to believe I'll make the Carlisle show without having to put this go-kart on a trailer!

Cory: it's gonna look sweeeeeet!

What's the blue line/tape on your 3rd photo? Can't wait to see it completed....

Cory,

That third picture in your post finally gives me an idea where you're going with this, and I have to say I really like it. I'll bet that you notice some handling improvements from the stiffer frame.

See ya in Carlisle!

The tape line is what we've decided to do for the orange/blue paint divide. I want to do a sort of 60s and early 70s LeMans trubute Gulf Team paint job. I'm using 917 number 20 as the paint model.

http://images.google.com/images?q=gulf+917&hl=en

I've stuck the better, frontal photo onto this so you can see the line a little better. That's also the sort of layout I want for the vinyl numbers; one in the middle of the hood, one each on the doors and one on the passenger's side rear deck. Should ROCK if I do it right.
The other two are the rear with the headrests mocked up -- they'll be blue with the orange stripe passing between them and terminating right below the hibachi -- and the last one is of the first door bar section fitting in exactly as I had hoped it would. I really am glad this thing is coming together well.
Thanks for the compliments!

Very very nice Cory...Love the headrest too!

I like the orange color down the middle, but that color combo could look a little out dated.
You could keep the silver with a metallic orange - sorta along the line as Joe Soltis (forgive the sp). Retro

Mel, I'm going to call this a "poor man's 917."
Kidding, of course, but I mocked up the scheme in a doodle and really liked it.
What kind of lights are those on your bumper?

Cory: those monster fog lamps are eurolite driving lights with a blue halo. I have not wired it up yet, or i'd post a photo.

I actually bought them because I wanted that monochromatic look with the paint. Sometimes I think they are a bit obnoxious, but the few extra pounds keeps that front end planted on the ground. Forget aerodynamics! LOL

I know I've put too many photos up in this thread, but I'm at the point now where I can really see progress. Hope nobody minds I'm hollering "Look at this stuff!" from the rooftops.
The first photo is really a good one for the placement of the bars on the driver's side, and the passenger side is done enough to see how well all the levelling and math are coming together. It's that detail crap that I really hate until there's progress I can touch. It's also right about now that Jim's got to start working out multiple angles and bends in each successive piece of tubing.
The second and third pictures are more or less showing off all the progress of the last month, and I wanted to put those up because we're about to cover up that cool skeleton with pieces of tin. The second one was taken yesterday, and the third about four weeks or so ago. It'll all come together when the templates are cut and the cardboard is transferred to aluminum.
For anyone using cardboard, let me add that the kind of scissors used by emergency medical technicians work really, really well for corrugated. Much better than a box-cutter knife:
http://www.allheart.com/pm87.html
A little low-tech tip from a low-tech guy. The best four bucks you'll ever spend! (Illegal link? Hope not! I don't work for those guys, but I am an EMT) ... :)

Cory; I for one am enjoying your posts and pics. Maybe a file could be created on your build with all your pics for future builders. I think this will be an awsome ride. It is really an undertaking. Pure custom 356 and I like it.

Cory..
its looking great...You have a dream coming to fruition..


Michael

Totally illegal link . . . but still . . . I HAVE been looking for a pair of "Comfort Clogs" . . .

Thanks for looking, fellas. The paininthebug folder has most of these things archived. I think I'll probably burn all of them onto a CD sooner or later by category, but for now there are loads of them here on the SOC site.

Just for you, TC ...
http://www.oziserv.com/cleft/scis1.gif

TOO PERFECT ! ! ! ! I wonder if anyone makes T-Shirts of that one?

Anybody ever ballast using lead shot inside a tube chassis?

Cory, Square tubing or round tubing? With stocks and sprint cars we fill 2 X 2 square tubing with melted lead and boltedit to the chassis were the weight was needed. On the stock cars we has a large rectangular tube on the left side that was also attached to the base frame. We had various lead weights that slid into this tube at different positions allowing the flexability to move it forward or backward. Filling the actual frame structure was not allowed due to safety reasons. A filled solid tube will not give on impact causing a major structural failure elsewhere. You should have plenty of room under the rocker areas to mount weight bars. Don't pack you chassis with lead.

This is what I'm up to.
The green is the 1.75x4x18-inch area I'm thinking about filling.
Works out to 108 cubic inches each, and it should take 30 lbs. of number four buck to completely fill the void space per side.
The red is the box around my cage, and the blue are the tube parts as of this week. The yellow is three-quarter-inch box. Orange are original pieces from the chassis.
There will be sheet metal riveted to the red; easier to do than round.
My take is that I kinda need to either do this now or forget about it. If I don't figure it out before powdercoat, I'll be rooking myself later.
That's a good rule about why not to fill the structural tubing. I'm going to have to re-think where to add the weight. I added the diagram to show you where the additional tubing has gone since the last photo update. Can you download that diagram, show me using MS Paint or some other electronic medium where you put the add-ons, and then re-post it here?
Fair game for other folks, too. Neither Jim nor I have ever ballasted a chassis before, and we're guessing at what might work.

Hi Cory,

Your progress looks great. Thanks for posting the pics, it's fun to follow.
I think I missed why you are adding weight at this point. I'm sure when everything is in
place your needs will change. Front end oil coolers=good weight/function. Larger
fuel tank, adjusted as needed. liquid to air Intercooler for your turbo=very good weight.

Hey, Bruce! Long time, no hear!
We've killed the turbo idea, and we're going with a Raby-built cooling system -- I think. His number didn't work yesterday.
Just to update you, I'm trying for a 60/40 minimum weight distribution and I'm not there yet.
There's a 12-gallon cell waiting for installation in the front, and the battery ahead of it, but otherwise the front's done. The tranny has no guts in it, and the engine's not operational.
The MSD's been ordered and the steering box is on the way.
Honestly, I may or may not make Carlisle without a trailer.

Cory , attached are a few suggestions for weight placement. Are you planning on drag racing, autocross, or road racing? It makes a big difference where the weight goes. Really need to put your car on some scales once everthing is bolted on the car to see what the corner and the cross weights are at. Weight is always the last thing added to the car. Stay away from the lead shot idea. Every time you hit a bump it will sound like rise crispy's in you frame. A 2x2 .125" wall 22" long ERW square tube filled solid with lead is about 38#'s. The view of where you initially want weight has limited placement. The side weight placement in the other view weight can be moved forward or backward. Or combine both. Add 5-10 #'s up front and the difference on the sides.
The car is lookin good. To bad you're not close .
Joe

Thanks for the quick turnaround, Joe!
Never did like Rice Krispies. Hate to sound REALLY dumb, but what's the ideal method of melting the lead into the piece of tubing? I'm assuming I'm going to need the old torch, but how much can you melt and pour at a time without caustic results?
To answer the question about what I'll be doing with the car, I'm deluding myself to say I'm going to hit the road-racing circuit. What I'd really like to do is pay some stupid money and run it around Summit Point by myself a couple times and pay nothing to really wind it up in Northern Virginia and Maryland on back-country roads like Skyline Drive in the Shenandoah Valley.
I am not afraid, however, of a cross-country trip to Illinois. I know already that there are several folks here that I'll be road-tripping northward to see, so going west will likely be next up. Can't really go east, and southern state troopers scare me.

You can melt lead using a oxy-acet torch. The other way is find an old cast iron pot, build a fire , and let the lead melt. Use this method ....Pouring it is the challenge. Find an old ladle. Just set the tubing up on the concrete with a piece of sheet metal beneath the opening. First pour small amounts to create a bottom plug. Don't worry about leakage . You can always remelt what leaked out. It is wise to drill the holes through the steel tubing first before the lead is poured. Make sure the bolts are in place with washer to prevent excessive leakage. Once the lead cools knock the bolts out. Drilling through lead is no fun. Make sure you melt the lead in a well ventilated area. Brain cells are harded to replace the older we get!

Cory,

Why are you adding the weight to the outer most areas of the chassis? Just the easiest place, someone said to, like creating bright green sections, or a real reason?

You're creating a teeter-totter by placing it so far outwards and high up. If you insist on using lead (we all just bolt weights--the nice round disks from a weight lifting set work fine--where needed and in the amounts needed) you ought to get a wide shallow pan to use as a form, pour it in carefully out in the open, shave it to size/shape when cooled and fasten it to the CENTER of the chassis, BENEATH the pan. It'll only cheat you out of an inch of clearance, but it'll be way better than melting and pouring into a closed chassis outrigger.

If you DO HAVE to pour lead into your chassis, you need at least twice the venting area as the pour area, and NO moisture inside at all, and use a long handled ladel ! !

Lemme know when the Burn Ward allows gifts and flowers . . . I'll send you something.

Cory, If you are going to road race safey wire all the front suspension nuts on the tie rods if they are not pinned. You can buy a jig for drilling hole through the nuts and spindles http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=1192
I really sucks when your car makes a sudden turn in the wrong direction. Are you using DOM tubing for your cage structure with a min wall of .085" thick?
This site also has alot of useful chassis hardware via gussets,tabs etc. http://www.aa-mfg.com/

Cory: Why are you adding weight at all? You should be trying to make the car as light as possible, extra weight will make you slower.

If you have to add weight bolt on lead blocks after the car is finished when you corner balance the car so it goes in the right place. Melting lead into the tubes before the car is finished your going to end up with a bunch of weight in the wrong spot and then be unable to change it.

You can melt the lead with a propane torch but do it outside and wear an appropriate respirator since the fumes will give you lead poisoning.

If you want to take your car on the track it is likely that you will need a more structural roll bar. Check with the track on the requirements for an open car

I use a LEE electric "production pot" for melting lead for bullets, fishing sinkers and toy soldiers. I've found a propane torch does not get it hot enough to flow (for long). The LEE pot gets to over 650 degrees and melts 10# fairy quickly. Cost is $45.

Oooppsss . . . just remembered. You're going to have to drill the roll cage with a series of holes so the the tech guys can check the wall thickness. You ought to check through your rules book (for whatever sanctioning/body that you're building to) for where and how many you need before you paint or powercoat

There are also rules for bar footings, how many square inches are required/permitted and whether they can be attached to the flooring vs inside rockers and bulkheads.

The roll bar usually has to be a set number of inches above your head while wearing the approved rated helmit. The height is quite a bit, even awkward looking. Most 356's end up in E Production, check the net for what these cars look like.

There's a good number of genuine racers here:

http://www.race-cars.com/

Look through the pics and listing to get an idea of what your bar and other construction needs to look like. The specs are also given in each listing as to safety equipment placement and rating.

Worth a look if you're at all serious about this s#it.

TC - drilling holes is the old school way. Tech's have ultrasonic thickness instruments for measuring the structural wall thickness. A little spot filed to remove the paint, an little grease at the test location, test taken .....thickness verified. How simple can that be?

I'm a big fan of waiting till nearer completion for balancing.
50/50 is nice, When you over do it in a turn its a smooth sideways
trajectory. I used to have a honda crx si, if memory serves it had like 67/33 or 63/37 weight distribution. Young(er), stupid(er), front wheel drive. I'd enter turns too fast, brake too hard (out of fear), more weight would tranfer and would spin regularly. Even weight is good.
Don't forget to put yourself in the seat while adjusting.

Wow, Joe! Pretty slick! We raced with a very successful IT class racer up at International Speedway in NH, who painted his cage(s) with rocker panel "chip guard" in order to increase the wall thickness where the techs checked the holes.

Cheat, cheat never beat . . . 'cept he kills all of us in the class, little $#IT wins all the time.

But I bet that the recent wheel/tire size ruling will help us a lot. We were stuck running 13 inch wheels. On a TR8 for cryin' out loud . . .

That's a whole lot of really good advice -- thanks!
Presently on vacation in St. Louis. Back on the attack tomorrow and will be in front of the car again Monday and Tuesday.
I'm using the DOM tubing, yes, and the thickness is at least .085 -- at least I have that going for me.
I'll be taking this whole thread to Jimmy and I'll be buying/swindling a copy of the SCCA book.
If I have to fully cage the car, I'll be ... not racing it. We'll see. Good points, though, and I WILL be doing better homework. Thanks, folks!

I'm home again. I can give you a more thought-out answer than just a promise to do my SCCA homework. I may not ever race this thing, especially since the fun-meter is sapped by all the rules and safety regulations.
I'm a fan of the Csaba Csere take on trailing throttle oversteer -- Mustangs are too cheap for that particular factory-installed option.
I am not, however, a fan of the effects of same. I wrecked this car once already. She's still wearing primer from that mishap.
Since most of you guys have more experience at these cars than I do, I'll again ask for advice. Bruce, the 50/50 goal stems from the fantastic balance and handling of the 4,200-lb. 928s I've had. Both were brilliant.
I weigh 165 lbs., soaking wet and carrying a brick. I'm using a total combined weight of 300 lbs. of box and DOM round tubing on this car, and the tunnel weight is unknown and subject to change.
I've got a stock frame head and axle tubes, minus a total of 12 inches of the tubes and springs. My torsion has had the IRS parts removed and ground, and there's 24 inches less of axle tube and torsion housing to factor into the vehicle's total weight.
I'm missing all the box tubing that used to support the rear and I've added a total of 14 lbs. of gussets and three-quarter-inch tubing for supporting equipment. Summary: I have no idea what my weight distribution is right now, but I'm sure I'm going to need at least 60 lbs. up front somewhere.
The 12-gallon cell is going to weigh 104 lbs full, and the battery will be another 40 lbs. or so. I've cut off every single thing I can from the chassis. There ain't nuthin' left to grind or cut.
My initial thought on ballasting the corners was to push the weight out and down for cornering, and to try to make up for some of the weight that's missing as a result of the chopping festivities.
TC, the Evil Genius, has talked me off that ledge. I've thought of stacking free-weights off the old (unused) Weider gym in my basement to get as even a distributed balance as I can, and then using the above proven techniques of smelting lead and pouring it into box tubing to equivocate the same weight and distribute it evenly, but I'm going to need some form of truck scale to figure out how much and where.
I really don't know if I want to take the time to wire-nut every bolt, as a partial answer to the "Whaddya gonna do with it?" question. I'd love to drive cross-country with the girl, or meet some of you folks for a weekender on back roads. That'd be perfect.
What I really need to do is drive it while it's light in the front, get a feel for it, and then ask one of you more experienced fellas to come stay at my joint for a weekend and throw some cones in a parking lot long enough to balance this crate professionally.
Meantime, I'm just going to keep welding this-here collection of parts into a real car.
I feel like Pinocchio right now. I just want to be a REAL driver. ...