Roots

Many install the oil cooler and electric fan (even the filter) in the drivers rear fender well behind the tire.  That keeps the oil lines away from most of exhaust.  You can get stainess steel mesh coated hose (teflon inside) that is more protective from abrasion and flows well.  AN fitting can be added for a professional look.  I wouldn't worry with the flaps - it just lets the engine heat up to operating temperature faster.  You can add a larger 914 oil cooler to replace the stock T1 filter (it takes modifying the doghouse oil cooler cover.  I would pursue all the other sealing and engine tins.

Do you have heat exchangers, or a header system?

There are a few things you should check out:

Some headers/J-pipes go right under the heads where the thermostat would go.

Some aftermarket heads don't have a clear path for the thermostat/flap rod that goes up through the head to the flap linkage.

Aftermarket heads with dual carbs don't usually have the tin just drop on. Cutting, bending, and stretching of tins needs to happen.

I really don't agree that all the heat is in the heads. The extra power that this motor makes comes from DISPLACEMENT. The 2332 is over 700cc bigger than the 1600(1588cc?) of the biggest type1 the factory made. That is significant.

More heat is extracted through the cylinders, through the heads, and into your oil from higher pressure on bearings due to all that torque and power. Higher compression makes more heat. Dual valve springs moving bigger valves and pushed by a bigger cam makes more heat.

I may be wrong, but a 2332 is going to require an external cooler. It's possible to make the hose routing cleaner and you can use braided hose instead of rubber.

Thanks Wolfy, my oil filter is in that area two large hoses pass through the A1 exhaust pipes to get to it, they are covered with some foil like material I just would like to get rid of all that stuff especially the cooler which is somewhere over the transmission, with an electric fan, FA would be rolling in his grave. 😃

FA didn't have 2332cc of go in any of his 356 cars, either.

Danny, I have heat exchangers modified with flanges to mate to the A1 exhaust. I would love to get rid of that too I feel like I’m being chased by an out of tune lawn tractor, too loud by a factor of 10. I would like a stock VW exhaust and muffler, nice and quiet like a real Speedster. Oh if I could do it all over again I would spend half as much on the engine and ten times as much on the transmission. Seventy five horse sounds right 1600 duel carbs, small solex would work.

@R Thorpe posted:

I have a question for the forum. I have a 2332 Vintage built engine in my replica. It has an external oil cooler, external oil filter along with all the oil lines weaving there way through and around the exhaust system. I’m wondering if I found a proper VW fan shroud and proper cooling flaps and all things associated with that including proper engine compartment sealing I cold get rid of all these pipes and things. I’ve read that most of the heat comes from the heads so people who tell me the large displacement is the cause of the heat are incorrect. I would like to get rubber pipes away from hot areas and be able to drop the engine more easily.  What do you think. The real fan shrouds, flaps, and thermostat are available out there. Cheers.

Richard

There’s a huge thread on TheSamba about cooling with input from a bunch of experts including Jake Raby. I looked into it a lot when I was researching changing my crappy Chinese shroud.

What I gathered from that was that a good German shroud, tin, and doghouse cooler were only good up to about two liters. Any engine larger than that needs addition cooling. (eta: For all the reasons Danny mentioned above)

I replaced the shroud on my 2L with a Cooled1 Thing shroud reproduction which includes a TypeIV cooler and flappers from AwesomePowdercoating and it’s worked perfectly.

Good info, thank you.

An A1 exhaust is a nice snake of an exhaust pipes.  It is probably best exhaust for an  engine that size.  You could look into have a quieter muffler installed.

That’s the first thing I asked A1, they thought I was crazy, “a quieter muffler?” not possible the other bad thing is you have to take it apart to adjust the valves. I got every thing I asked for with this car and the best service, a great product, I just was asking for the wrong things. I have a stock 1967 VW it is so much closer to the Speedster experience than my replica.

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@R Thorpe posted:

.

...I feel like I’m being chased by an out of tune lawn tractor, too loud by a factor of 10. I would like a stock VW exhaust and muffler, nice and quiet like a real Speedster...

You mean something like this?

@R Thorpe , I post this video every time this comes up, so I think the regulars are getting pretty tired of it, but if you want a stock 356 sound out of a two-liter Type 1, there IS an alternative in the Vintage Speed exhaust.

The big 'gotcha' is that it isn't a tuned extractor header system like the A1 and you will leave a few horses on the table compared to that. The pluses, besides less noise, are an absence of snaky pipes, the ability to easily fit heat exchangers, and nothing to remove to access the valve covers. It's also a quality, all-stainless piece with nice welds.

Here's what it looks like installed, showing a heat exchanger and the oil lines leading to my filter, and on to the external Setrab oil cooler fanpack mounted in the left wheel well (just visible at extreme left of photo).

I know it works, with 1.5" pipes on a two liter or a 2110. I don't know if the 1.5" pipes are big enough for a 2332, so maybe Dr. Piperato or one of his colleagues will address that.

The only serious problem with this system is that it buys you zero street cred, as real men need loud pipes and the most power money will buy. Absolutely no one will hear you start it up and say,

"Man, what kind of pipes are you runnin' ?"

.

I’ve talked to the Vintage Speed guys several times. They cannot tell me if their system will fit and returning it to China sounds costly. Also I have their shifter which is so un-Speedster like, very tight, no cool “monkey motion” to slow and enjoy shifts. I want to get rid of it and replace it with a long throw pre 67 7mm shifter but my car has the notchless cup that I would have to change.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

...but if you want a stock 356 sound out of a two-liter Type 1, there IS an alternative in the Vintage Speed exhaust... I know it works, with 1.5" pipes on a two liter or a 2110. I don't know if the 1.5" pipes are big enough for a 2332, so maybe Dr. Piperato or one of his colleagues will address that.

According to the header size chart I often refer to (credited to James Beahm, a US east coast VW guy, and originally published in Hot VW's I think 15 or 17 years ago), a 2332 should only make power to about 5300 rpm with 1½" exhaust tubing.  As Mitch mentioned, it won't make quite the same power as a tuned header (the back tubes are substantially shorter than the fronts, but then with a 2332 it'll still make gobs of torque so unless you're trying to wring every last drop out of it it's not going to matter that much), but it is a compact (I'm told) fairly quiet (I admit I've never actually seen or heard 1) well made unit.

@R Thorpe- what are your engine specs again (heads/valve sizes, camshaft, carbs)?

PS- a couple of things- if you missed what Danny said in his longer post above, read it again.  People put full flow filters on these engines and get noticeably longer engine life and (as already said) bigger engines really do need more cooling, so you're going to have to live with that.   Moving the cooler down into the left rear wheelwell would make it more efficient, as you'll get better airflow through it.  Above the trans is dead air space, and even with a fan, a lot of the air is just going to recirculate  (and just get hotter) unless you've directed air up into the area.

Question- how high does your 2332 go with power when you run it up in 3rd gear?  I specify 3rd gear because in 1st or 2nd you won't feel the power fall off like you will in 3rd- you should feel a noticeable 'peak', although it will rev a little higher. Al

I don’t believe I’ve ever heard of someone upset over more power better sound and crisper shifts before. Hmmm I guess to each their own. I hope you find what your looking for.

You have never driven a real Speedster, I have

I didn’t mean any disrespect my friend. And No I haven’t ever driven a Real Speedster I don’t think I could afford to fix it if something happened to it while I was.

I also have driven a real speedster. I installed a VintageSpeed exhaust on my 1915 cc Beck, and I am pleased with the sound. Not exactly like the sound of a 356, but pretty close, and it doesn’t sound like the average vw.

That's the problem with old 356's, whether they're Speedsters, Coupes, or ???- they are truly cars from another era (and drive like it).  Although a replica Speedster body pretty faithfully replicates the look, to go all out with the vintage experience requires no more than a lightly modified 1600, 6 volt electrics (and lights that barely let anyone know you're there), swingaxle rear suspension, drum brakes with dead technology skinny tires (sorry, it won't happen here, as I vowed never to go back after putting on my first set of radials on a '67 Beetle 37? 38? years ago- I don't know, a lot of it's kind of fuzzy now), no rear camber compensator (I guess the hotrodders in the group could call it a period accessory and get away with it) and even, I suppose, an original VW shifter (really- where's the fun in that?).  If that's what 1 wants, so be it.

Our cars, although they look like real Speedsters (and Spyders- I haven't forgotten you guys!), are not P vin numbered cars and therein lies the joy of our hobby- we can modify, update and individualize our cars as we see fit.  Changing the look of the exterior via side trim removal, deleting bumper uprights for a cleaner look (or taking said bumpers off altogether, and maybe adding some custom nerf bars), mirror choice, badge placement/removal, lowering, bolt pattern/wheel choice, 2 liter plus engines with 2 or even 3 times the power, irs (and a real rear anti-sway bar!), modern wider/lower radial tires (and maybe even wider wheels and tires in the back), 12 volt electrics, disc brakes,  and for the truly dedicated trying to get the most out of your assemblage of aftermarket/bastard parts, a 5 speed are all possibilities here.  And yes, better shifters are even available- hell, the Vintage Speed unit even looks the part, while  shortening/cleaning up the movement and making the experience just that much more fun!   The big question- how much are you going to open your wallet?

As Uncle Stan                                                                                                                     _{(President for life of Stanistan, for he is beloved by his people- he even has an official car with flags and everything!)}                                                                                                                                   has said- it's a big tent, with room for all, and that's 1 of the things I love about this hobby                                                                                                                                    _{(except maybe the SEMA Speedster with the Russian bordello interior- come on guys, there are limits.  And the sad thing is until I saw the inside I so-o-o loved that car- the Magnus Walker wheels were killer!)}

Yoda out (for now- time to go back to bed it is, but be back later I promise I will!)

@R Thorpe posted:

You have never driven a real Speedster, I have

Neither have I, and I don't think I have missed anything.  They are great for car shows, displays, PCA cruises, etc. but not for anything coming close to real life.  I am a regular at the Vintage weekend in Watkins Glen (except for the past couple of Covid years), and there is a genuine 356 speedster there.  It just looks so antique, and sounds and drives the same, but the owner just loves to stick it in the concourse and stand there greeting the admiring throngs.  Obviously, that's his thrill in life, but I get mine when I turn the key, hit the gas, and head out to parts unknown.

I have had my share of VW beetles, Karmann Ghias, etc. and they were appropriate for the time (1960s), but not today.  That is, unless I am a member of a car club devoted to these vehicles.

But for today's driving, give me a decently powered and outfitted replica.  It's the  most fun you can legally have...

Lots of good info.  Thank you everyone.

I'm with Bob on this one.  I love the looks of the spyder and 356 but would never be interested in the performance of an original.  Not interested in owning an original.  If a real 550 or 356 landing in my garage from heaven I'd sell it to make room for my clown car.  My Vintage Spyder with its 200hp suby and 4 wheel disc brakes would run circles around an original.  I'm building a monster 2.65L Type 4 to stuff in my Beck 356 so obviously I'm not looking for originality.  It will have Willwoods to slow it down.  If I had more money than Zeus I would consider an Emory Outlaw with a 4 cylinder 911 engine.  But that's as original as I would go.  Big tent indeed.

It is a big tent. I am trying to recreate the Speedster experience where a small lightweight car trounced more powerful rivals, where shifts were slow and deliberate, where you could hear your surroundings as you drove on two lane roads. No freeways no burning rubber no 10 MPG. A lost age, too bad I say.

I get it.  But most of us are children.  90% of us will gear down and punch it in a tunnel just to hear the exhaust echo.  I cracked a grin just thinking about it.

@550 Phil posted:

I get it.  But most of us are children.  90% of us will gear down and punch it in a tunnel just to hear the exhaust echo.  I cracked a grin just thinking about it.

Have you been following me, Phil?  :-)

@R Thorpe posted:

You have never driven a real Speedster, I have

I have driven 356a and 356b coupes. No not a Speedster, but close enough for jazz.

They were fun, but more power is more fun.

10mpg? I get 22mpg minimum, with 180hp. Well, maybe 18mpg when I hit the mountains in NC, hard!

I really don't know my mpg any more, I haven't finished tuning the EFI yet. So I'll get back to you on that.

@550 Phil posted:

I get it.  But most of us are children.  90% of us will gear down and punch it in a tunnel just to hear the exhaust echo.  I cracked a grin just thinking about it.

I started grinning as I finished reading the first line...

I like the cut of your jib, @R Thorpe!

Driving a slow car fast is always more fun that driving a fast car slow. And if you're driving on public roads, option 1 is all you really have.

I believe the engine you spec'd makes about 140-150 horses at about 5,000 RPM. You could change to the Vintage Speed exhaust and it'll lose maybe 10. Maybe. Still double what the Normal engine had back in the day.

You could sell it on, replace it with a nice little 1835 or 1915 with an Engle 110 and dual Kads and get it down to that Super 90 range. The bigger Type 1 will give just a bit more torque than the motors you remember, but not so much more that it ruins the illusion.

As for the sloppy stock shifter... I would not go that far. But you're chasing a dream, and I'm pretty sure the earlier shift rods can be had. Get what you really want!

I was told by the builder that my setup is about 125 hp, detuned I suppose. What you may be able to answer for me is that I have stock heat exchangers that bolt on to the enormous pipes of the A1 sidewinder, meaning more than half the length of the system is the stock diameter. Thank you.

@R Thorpe posted:

You have never driven a real Speedster, I have

Your point exactly?  Having owned a 59 356A coupe, it was a nice experience, a visceral old car feel,  but it is much older technology and no comparison to a newer IM with full 911 front end and 180hp or more or a flat 6.  

I also had multiple beetles, and a karmann ghia and they were quite different to the 356A.  which has different gearing, longer 2nd gear, shifter and large 420mm steering wheel brings a very different classic car feel and a much easier IMO steering leverage.

I can appreciate all of them but did I say I like my IM   I love Glass cars too, no rust buggies.

@R Thorpe posted:

I was told by the builder that my setup is about 125 hp, detuned I suppose. What you may be able to answer for me is that I have stock heat exchangers that bolt on to the enormous pipes of the A1 sidewinder, meaning more than half the length of the system is the stock diameter. Thank you.

@edsnova posted:

I believe the engine you spec'd makes about 140-150 horses at about 5,000 RPM. You could change to the Vintage Speed exhaust and it'll lose maybe 10. Maybe. Still double what the Normal engine had back in the day.

If the engine has stock heater boxes they will restrict power output to 110-120 hp tops, no matter what the rest of the engine is capable of or how big it is.  Do you know what carbs are on it?  Can you post a pic? (I'm just curious as to what the combo is)  Does it rev much past 4,000 rpm with power?  Does it run hot at all?  It must be a torque monster off the line!     Al

It’s a 2 year old VM build with 40mm Kadrons, it runs relatively cool can pull stumps and has power above 4K. I’m still dealing with tuning just added vacuum advance and about to look at the jetting, it runs way rich ( on purpose I imagine). I’m so displeased with the exhaust noise that I want to address that first. I have a computer driven air fuel analyzer and will soon put the probe in my new tailpipe. I’m guessing it will be very rich. Cheers.

Richard

@R Thorpe posted:

It’s a 2 year old VM build with 40mm Kadrons, it runs relatively cool can pull stumps and has power above 4K...

How high above 4,000 rpm will it go with power?

5500 maybe

I only have 1300 miles on the odometer

@R Thorpe posted:

5500 maybe

Is that according to a tachometer?  The reason I ask is that if the engine will rev that high with stock heater boxes I would question whoever told you it's a 2332- I would be surprised if an engine that large choked with stock heater boxes would make it much past 4,000 rpm.  There's something that doesn't make a lot of sense here...

It’s one of two standard configurations offered by VM at the time I purchased the car the 2332 version was advertised as putting out 125 HP. Their page now lists the 2332 as putting out 145 hp at an unspecified rpm.

I'd think a decent 1914 cc would make at top about 120-125 hp --- for most Speedsters that is the standard low end performance engine.  69 mm stock crank with 94 mm p&C. Anything above that would take larger than stock J pipes or costly larger diameter heat exchangers.  I'd double check your engine build sheet.

A 2332 is a costly engine -- would not think it would be strangled with inexpensive stock heat exchangers from a builder.  Expensive stroker 84 mm crank (w/ case clearancing) and 94 mm P&C.

Are you sure the heat exchangers are stock diameter.  I had "high-performance" heat exchangers with my Sidewinder.  They were the same diameter, hence the "high-performance" moniker.  As for providing heat, they were strictly low-performance.

@R Thorpe Have you had you car up in the air while its been running? The only reason I ask is because I have had an A1 header exhaust system for about six years and by no means is it that loud my wife and I can have a conversation going down the road at any rpm. I just wonder if you have something else wrong under your heat exchangers may be a hole in the exhaust or header gasket or something that you can’t see.

@WOLFGANG posted:

I'd think a decent 1914 cc would make at top about 120-125 hp --- for most Speedsters that is the standard low end performance engine.  69 mm stock crank with 94 mm p&C. Anything above that would take larger than stock J pipes or costly larger diameter heat exchangers.  I'd double check your engine build sheet.

A 2332 is a costly engine -- would not think it would be strangled with inexpensive stock heat exchangers from a builder.  Expensive stroker 84 mm crank (w/ case clearancing) and 94 mm P&C.

While you would think that, Greg, if you talk to anyone deeply entrenched in the hobby, it's surprising how often upon inspection/teardown 'big stroker' engines from builders are not what people thought.  Sometimes a 2276 and 2332 turns out to be a 1915.  It doesn't happen all the time (and I don't think it's the case here), but it does often enough that when you're told a 2332 with stock heater boxes will rev with power to 5500 rpm it makes you wonder.  As I said earlier, an engine that big with stock heater boxes shouldn't be able to rev past 4500 AT THE VERY MOST, even with a 1 5/8" Sidewinder attached.

@Lane Anderson posted:

Are you sure the heat exchangers are stock diameter.  I had "high-performance" heat exchangers with my Sidewinder.  They were the same diameter, hence the "high-performance" moniker.  As for providing heat, they were strictly low-performance.

I'm going on what Rick has told us here, Lane (he's used the term 'stock' heaterboxes a couple of times), but that's a possibility as well (and what I was starting to wonder about).

@R Thorpe- can you take the hose off a heater box at the engine compartment end? Looking in, if they are stock genuine VW you should be able to just see an aluminum finned casting around the exhaust tubing.  If they are aftermarket there will be a bare (but maybe somewhat rusty) tube.