SACO hydraulic clutch installation

We got lazy and decided to wait until tomorrow to head up to the mountains and it is unusually warm, so I decided to start on the installation of the hydraulic clutch release system that I bought waaaaay back before Carlisle last year. I intended just to get the car up on jackstands, get the wheels off, and may take out the cable. Things went so smoothly that I kept going for a while, taking pictures as I went. I am nowhere near finished (that lazy thing again) but much father along than expected. So far I have all of the old stuff out, the new pedal set assembled with the clutch release arm upside down, and the slave cylinder in a temporary installation. I will post some pics and add to this. Please stand by...

This does not sound like lazy to me.

Lazy is having Carey do it for me. That's what's going to happen in March :)

"Please stand by..."
This sounds like one of the Outer Limits episodes. :-)

Lane....Whats that puddle under the car???? 8>)

This might become another one of those 'odd' threads!

Well folks, I've learned how to crash this site. Just as I hit "Upload" for the first picture, the site locked up for almost a day. Now I'm at my inlaws, so pics will have to wait until I get back home.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO ALL SOC MEMBERS

Upload all your latest pictures right away! Before Lane has an another odd problem that seems to symbolize his life experience with speedsters. Now, oddly, it seems to be spreading to our beloved website!

Funny....

I haven't seen the SOC go off the air lately.

Lane! What kinda hydraulic fluid are you....ahhhhh....using?

Tullamore Dew. Why?

Because, like Leon said, that's odd! 8-)

Ok, finally! here are the pics I promised. I haven't worked on it since before Christmas, but I hope to wrap it up this Friday cuz it's supposed to be in the 70's here New Year's Day.

First pic is the access panel below the tunnel. The angle sucks, but there wasn't much clearance under the car. You can see that I have already removed some of the fiberglassing used to seal it.

The second pic is under the tunnel with the panel removed. The black tube is the fuel line and the bronzish(?) one is the rear brake line.

Third pic is the new rebuilt German pedal cluster courtesy of Barry Hudson. Note the two grease fittings and the fact that the clutch release arm is now upside down. That last bit is ONLY necessary for installation in a Beck.

The fourth pic is of the footwell with the pedals out, and the fifth is of the slave cylinder installed. I did not use the slave saver for the initial installation as doing so requires that I cut off the metal loop that the cylinder is currently through. This originally held the aft end of the bowden tube, and removing it make the installation pretty much irreversible. I want to drive it with the hydraulic mechanism a bit and make sure it works well and that I like it before making it permanent.

Thinking out load...Why not not install one of the "bolt-in systems that include hydraulic clutch, brake and a roller accelerator pedals as one unit? I was considering this move while Merlot is visiting Carey. Has any one used the bolt-ins? Looks like a lot less problematic.

Yes and no......I looked at those too, and stayed stock because it's a lot of work adapting the foot bulkhead (often called the "Napolean Hat" because of the shape of the thing) to accept the pedal cluster - there isn't enough room between the pedal pivot and the bulkhead for the M/C's and it's a PITA to adapt the "hat" (which is two pieces of sheetmetal about 1-1/4" apart and provides a lot of strength to that area) to the new cluster.

It'd be easier to delete the hat on the driver's side and just build something from scratch, but I would then worry about structural (and torsional) integrity afterwards.

I can show pictures of that area from my new pan (no body yet), if you wish.

Lane (and Carey): That access panel below the tunnel is the Cat's Ass! That should be SOP on EVERY Speedstah!

This is what I was thinking about using...floor mount with a fiberglass housing via cutout and rectangular molded housing through the firewall. The Beck doesn't have a VW type pan. I won't do anything if a Beck 904 deal can be worked out.

The bad thing about that type of pedal cluster is that it only supports single-circuit brakes. Getting one with dual-circuit brakes is a must in my book, but will be considerably more expensive and difficult to install.

The nice thing about the SACO is that the stock pedals work fine with the only change being flipping the clutch release arm. This way you can stick to the stock dual-circuit MC for the brakes.

Of course I'm saying this before I've completed the installation and tested it out. Fingers crossed.

Oh yeah - If you can work out a 904 deal I will be seriously jealous, especially considering what Chuck is asking for those puppies.

The really nice Tilton cluster would be my second choice, but as Gordon said, it would require a good bit of work. The Beck doesn't have the "Napoleon's Hat" that he referred to, but has a straight piece of steel that goes from one wheel well to the other. That is also why I had to flip the SACO unit over as the MC would have had to stick through that steel in the normal orientation.

Oh yeah #2 - Gordon, there is actually a series of 3 access panels between each frame cross-member, running from the front one shown in the picture to the rear end of the tunnel. I haven't removed the others because getting the fiberglass off is a bit of a PITA. I think Carey, et al, should consider leaving off the fiberglass and just using the sealer to allow for easy servicing of all the stuff in the tunnel. I know they are doing some frame redesign to lower the floor, so this would be the time to do it.

There are pressure equalizing devices at CB Performance. Note that the originals didn't have such amenities! My '40 Ford coupe drove just fine without any type of equalizer...just a good adjustment job at each wheel.

With the $$$$$ we spend trying out and up grading, we could purchase a 904 GTS. These are now shown on Carey's site as an added product!

Dual-circuit systems are not for equalization. They are there to provide a backup braking capability if one of the circuits gets a leak.

My opinion, Don't need'em never did! If you loose the master cylinder seals regardless you're in trouble. One thing needed which would be more helpful is a means too adjust braking pressures front to rear based upon terrain and driving styles. Your front brakes does most of the work any way. Weight transfer control would be good also. Equal weight to all wheels...we then would have a better and safer system when all wheels brake proportionally the same. Hey, we'll wear out the rear brake shoes then! F-1 cars are so equip. The driver can select left or right making high speed turns and braking easier.

Want a good discussion about brakes and braking technique? Read Elford's book on driving the Porsches.

I also failed to mention that if there is just one brake pressure line to each brake caliper or brake cylinder, there is NO backup or redundant system. Wee all the way down the road!

On the stock MCs the front and rear circuits are completely separate. If your rear leaks (Here's an opportunity for jokes, guys), you still have front brakes. If your front leaks (Look! Here's another one!), you still have rear brakes - for what they're worth.

OK...now you understand, No redundant system! Our Speedies don't need front and rear master cylinder porting. different story with ABS.

?

I'm not sure you're getting this, Aaron. Redundancy means that the circuits are separate- for the very reason Lane stated several posts ago. He "understands" just fine, and always has.

As far as "not needing it" because the originals never had it- you're completely entitled to your own opinion, but I'm not going back to drum brakes and 60 hp.

----- Back to the clutch thingie -----

I have now completed the installation except for some tidying up and bleeding. I hope to have it back on the road tomorrow. I have taken a few more pictures of the installation, and will take some more tomorrow and then post them here. So far it's been pretty easy, although I did have to do some grinding with a Dremel to get the pin the MC pushrod to clear the mounting bracket. This appears to be due to a slight offset from the side of the tunnel that makes the pushrod run at a slight angle.

Stan,didn't see down here on the Blue Ridge Parkway Run. Read below!

Yankees at it again and they'll never get it. Us Southern Mountain folk love a good tit-tat just for the fun of it. Hell, we've had heated discussions with locust fence posts and WON! Most SOCers know that Lane and I good friends. Have you seen his picture in Events. I caught'em practicing for the upcoming ice age! Now, he's tell fibs because he was wearing a wig and nothing else!

P.S. You trying to start the War of Northern Aggression again?

Relax, y'all. Aaron, for all you know Stan is yankin' YOUR chain.

Anyway, here's an update on the clutch:

Got it bled but things just aren't right. The pedal doesn't come back up very well, but that probably just means the the return spring in the MC is too weak. I can fix that easily with an external spring. What really bothers me is that I have yet to get the clutch to disengage with the new outfit. the temporary installation of the slave (sans slave-saver) seems to be causing some binding but I am reluctant to cut off the loop for the bowden tube until I know FOR SURE that this is the way to got. It's SUPPOSED to work without it. Gordon thinks I may just have to take more free play out. I will try that tomorrow. For today I am done.

For "the loop" mentioned in the post above, look at this picture. The loop is cast onto the transaxle side plate. Gordon tells me that there are removable brackets available, so I am still debating whether to go ahead and remove it. Decisions, decisions.

Although maybe not of much interest to you or others, I can offer a few observations based on difficulties I encountered when I installed my Saco in my old CMC. I may repeat some of my comments I previously offered in my 10/10 and 11/21 comments on your "Odd Clutch Issues" thread.

I would be very surprised if your clutch pedal return problem was in any way related to a weak return spring in the m/c. I seriously doubt that you do in fact have the system bled adequately yet. If you do not have a pretty "solid" hydraulic system (read: no air in the system), the pedal is not going to return properly when the pedal is released. As you are aware, when hydraulic fluid is expelled from the m/c when you push on the clutch pedal moving the piston to the back of the m/c, that solid column of fluid pushes the slave cylinder piston from the aft end of the cylinder toward the front of the cylinder (and the car). This movement in return rotates the the clutch release arm ccw (as viewed from the driver's side) forward toward the front of the car against the clutch release arm return spring. If that column is solid (no air), then when the pedal is released, it has to return to from whence it came because the very strong release arm return spring now rotates the arm cw thereby pulling the slave cylinder piston aft and pushing a solid column of fluid out of the slave cylinder back into the rear of the m/c and pushing the m/c piston toward the front of the m/c resulting in the piston rod pushing the pedal back to it's original at-rest position. This movement is totally dependent on achieving a "solid" column of fluid from your bleeding exercise. It will certainly take more than merely "bench bleeding". And.....pedal return movement is not a function of the m/c internal spring.

I'm not sure what is "not SUPPOSED to work without" what that you mentioned, but I do know that the bowden tube "loop" is not one of those items. Gordon is correct in advising that steel bolt-on loops are available That's what I have, and from your photo, it looks as though there are two studs located below your present "loop" that are for that. But I'm not sure why you would remove your present "loop". I'm also afraid that I'm not familiar with the "slave saver" you refer to. When I bought my Saco unit, I received a mounting plate, a m/c, piston actuator arm, rubber boot, 6' tygon tubing, fluid reservoir, CNC slave cylinder, and no instructions.

If you are interested, I would suggest that you mount the slave cylinder with the hydraulic inlet fitting in the "up" position. I would also bleed the system before mounting the slave cylinder and measure the slave stroke. This will require you to manually return the slave piston to it's most extreme aft position by pulling on both ends. You should get an inch of stroke if properly bled. Gordon is correct in removing "free play". You can mount the slave cylinder now. I had a 1/2" stack of flat washers in front of the "loop". To adjust the free play, it will be necessary to grab the cylinder and pull it forward toward the front of the car while adjusting the front adjustment nut on the slave until you only have an 1/8" of play or movement as measured at the "loop". At that point I think it would be prudent to measure the cylinder stroke at the slave piston rod attach point on the clutch release arm (a two person job). Hopefully, you should get 1/2"-5/8" of stroke. If you don't, it's not properly bled yet and your clutch will not release.

You probably do not need my input or thoughts on these installations. You may not even want them, but they do reflect what I learned about the Saco. In my opinion, the most important nugget is that bleeding is a bitch, but it is absolutely necessary...and must be done correctly, which will take time. I found pressure bleeding to be the best...for me.

John, your input is greatly appreciated. In the picture below, the slave saver is on the right. This bolts to the same two studs that are used for the bowden tube bracket on an IRS car. On a swing axle car, the bracket (what I've been calling the "loop") is cast into the side plate. The purpose of the slave saver is to raise the forward end of the slave cylinder and also make it's stroke parallel to the car's center line, thus giving it a more direct angle and reducing binding and wear on the slave. As you have discovered, the system is supposed to work well without it.

The issue may be bleeding, as you suggested, but I have pumped quite a bit of fluid through the system with no more air appearing. Next step may be borrowing a pressure bleeder.

Oh yeah, SACO is now providing instructions, although they are pretty vague.

Last night, when I wrote "....I would suggest that you mount the slave cylinder with the hydraulic inlet fitting in the "up" position", I meant to say that the "bleeder" port should be "up" at the top of the slave. Sorry. My only excuse is that I am old and it was late here in SW Florida.

No worries, John. I knew what you meant.

I borrowed a neighbor's pressure bleeder and got a little more air out. I also readjusted all of the freeplay and it now has a little firmer feel. It still returns the pedal slowly, although it does come up all the way now. When I can get my wife to sit in the car and work the pedal I will observe the slave and see how much travel it's getting and if the slow return is due to binding on that end. For all I know it's actually disengaging the clutch now, but I didn't feel like experimenting today. Too much football to nap through.

I can't help thinking you have a check valve in the master cyinder or slave, making it blead back slowly. Hence the slow petal return.

I am reasonably certain that you will not find a check valve in the hydraulic actuation/release circuit. There is absolutely no valve within the slave cylinder. A basic master cylinder requires no check valve since the "valve" action is achieved by dimensionally "timing" the ports leading to the reservoir so they close off the reservoir when piston is pushed forward and then open when the pedal is fully released and the fluid column is forced back into the m/c by the slave cylinder and returns the piston to it's at-rest position and then uncovers the port to the reservoir. The Saco m/c is a basic m/c.

If you put a check valve in the actuation circuit, you only get one one push...one actuation...and it's permanent, the clutch will not re-engage when you lift your foot from the pedal because you have a hydraulic lock. This is the way some provide for a hydraulic emergency brake...by adding a pull-closed/push-open hydraulic lock valve in the brake line between the m/c and the rear wheel cylinders/calipers. In fact, that is the way I've provided for my emergency brake in my own CMC.

How light is your clutch effort, John? In its current state the one in my car is extremely low effort - so much so that I may add a return spring just to beef it up a bit.

The more I think about it, the more the symptoms I am seeing could be caused by binding at the slave due to the angle of installation. That could be fixed with the slave saver, but I can't bring myself to cut off the bowden tube bracket. I really wish it was a removable one like on the IRS cars.

Latest update: I had Pam work the clutch while I observed the action at the slave. I am getting less that 1/2" of travel out of the slave, which is not enough to disengage the clutch and shift. I verified that by starting the car and trying to get it into gear. I have the pushrod on the MC adjusted as far out as possible, but I think it is a bit too short, thus reducing the stroke. As I believe the system to be thoroughly bled, I think that I need to fabricate a longer pushrod. That will be my next change, and probably my last before I return to the cable.

Although I'm presently in SW Florida right now and my CMC is in Missouri, I believe that my pedal force is somewhere in the 1/2-3/4 range of the IM that I have here with cable clutch. Although I still believe you have not adequately bled your system yet if it's that easy to push, I would suggest you first get the car in a position where you can easily measure the slave stroke and determine that data point. Actually, FIRST I would merely put the xmission in neutral, start the engine, and the see if you can shift into 1st. You stand a 50/50 chance of having bled it adequately and the gods merely smiled on you and blessed your car with an extremely low force actuation system...but I seriously doubt it. Then I would measure the stroke, then I would bleed it some more.

I also believe that you may be correct in your assumption of the slave binding within the bowden tube bracket. Frankly, mine "nearly" binds and as you know, I have the steel bolt-on bracket. The first thing I would do is get a drill motor under there and use an appropriately sized drill as a cutting tool and try to gently "wallow out" (you're not going for a larger diameter hole here, you merely want to "ovalize" the existing hole vertically) the loop hole so that the fixed shaft on the front of the slave can move up and down a bit more within the loop hole. Hopefully this will reduce the angle (as measured off the horizon) of the slave assembly when the fixed shaft is inserted into the bowden bracket and better "aim" the movable shaft at the aft end at the hole in the clutch release arm. In your photo, it looks like the two studs just below the "loop" are what I remember as the ones my bracket bolted up to. The brackets are inexpensive and personally, I would get one and see if the stud spacing works. If it does and the aforementioned "wallowing out" exercise did not work, then you might cut the stock "loop" off and try the steel bracket. At least with the steel bracket, if it binds, you can remove the bracket, clamp it in a vise, heat it with a torch, and with a large screwdriver or other steel rod adjust the angle of the loop. I would not "adjust" that angle without heating the bracket for fear of a cold fracture...and there will be a fair amount of force placed on the loop every time you hit the pedal.

Good luck...and remember, you can never bleed this system too much. Oh, once again, if you remove the slave from the bowden tube bracket, personally, I would measure the stroke of the slave shaft in it's free state just to see if you are getting something on the order of a 1" movement. As I said yesterday, I needed that much in a free state in order to get the necessary 1/2"-5/8" stroke when everything was bolted up and all free-play removed. I never have figured out where the missing 3/8"-1/2" disappeared to, but I believe that it is related to bleeding (again).

Lane, I guess I was busy typing my wacko advice while you were lamenting your experience. I feel the pain, been there, felt that...but you just need to persevere. As you may have noted on my Saco photos, I had to make a new m/c rod with a dog-leg in it. No big deal. I just bought a couple of long grade 8 bolts, sawed off the head and rounded the shaft with a grinder. I do know that Saco now supposedly provides 2 m/c rods (differing lengths) with their kits, but it's certainly quicker to fab your own. So it's apparent that others have complained about short shafts...now that I think about it, I can identify with that.

Lane, I'm sorry that I don't have my memory book containing my build notes with me, but as I recall, I made my fabbed m/c rod about 3/8"-1/2" longer than the one Saco supplied. As a suggestion, if you only buy one bolt, I would probably start with a 1/2" longer rod. Fabbing this rod is actually much easier than bleeding the system more, and with your trap door access, replacement should be relatively painless (as compared to brain surgery maybe).