Sand Seal Helps? Crank Pulley Opinions?

Sounds like you didn't have the alternator pulley tight enough. Maybe a bit of blue thread-locker would help you here?

Wolfgang Intl sells the pulley for $115.

JayCee makes well-made products. If the pulley halves aren't damaged I'd still use it.

I wouldn't swap the crank pulley and seal out if it is working. No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, some cheap crank pulleys have grooves that aren't deep enough to be effective. No, I don't know which ones they are. Stare and compare your VW OE pulley to the replacement.

JayCee does sell the pulley hub separately if you want to go that way.

I will also note that any sand seal pulley REQUIRES a good breather/oil control system to work properly.

Michael Pickett had one of those aluminum pulley nuts strip out.  I just don’t see them holding up long term.  

  I think this pulley is very expensive, but it is worth at least reading his ad.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/cl...etail.php?id=2542991

Everybody's got an opinion about sand-seals. Here's mine:

It's not 1920 anymore. Having a seal on both ends of the crankshaft is one of the things that separates us from the uncivilized tribes. Dealing with windage and blow-by by leaving a hole around the pulley was not one of the Sainted German Engineer's finest moments, but it's related to oil - so what should I have expected? We should all be glad they decided an oil pump was in order. The way the rest of it is designed suggests they strongly considered splash lubrication.

The threads cut in the hub to get oil back to the sump would be comical, if it weren't so lazy and sad (no, it's not clever). The entire apparatus relies on faith and hope that an oil mist is going to magically condense on the pulley and be flung back into the sump.

Lastly, if one more guy tells me that a sand seal is to keep sand out of the engine, rather than oil in it, I'm going to sentence him to a lifetime of reading Gene Berg's VW Bible (personally handed down to him, directly from the hand of God Almighty, on the peak of Mt. Baldy). If this is the case, then why does the lip point in?

The sand seals are kludgy and rude, but they're better than nothing.

Porsche 356-912 motors used a “sand seal” when they started 3 piece engine cases in 1955 ,

@DannyP, both pulleys are damaged and can't be reused.  I have some issues with both JayCee pulleys. At this point, I don't like the aluminum nut on the alternator pulley.  The aluminum crank pulley has a bolt-on steel hub. It has fine grooves around it and I was always concerned that it might damage the seal.

@LI-Rick, that pulley is impressive but I don't think I want to spend that much after all my Stupidity expenditures.

@Stan Galat, you said exactly what I expected you to say. Last night I read your post from about a dozen years ago on theSamba.

@imperial, you helped tip the decision toward continuing to use a sand seal.

At this point, I am thinking of using this CB crank pulley: https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1899.htm

When I first build the engine, many years ago, I used a Berg crank pulley.  I can't remember if I still have it or sold it.  In any case, it doesn't work with a sand seal.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@Stan Galat, you said exactly what I expected you to say. Last night I read your post from about a dozen years ago on theSamba.

At least I'm consistently opinionated?

Maybe if we just called it a rear main seal (cause that's what a "sand seal" is) we'd feel differently about it.  "I shall leave the rear main seal out of my SBC build," said no one ever.

The original oiling system was designed to a price point, at gun point, as a mater of politics. Let us step gingerly into the late 20th century, I think we'll be safe there.

@JMM (Michael)- Both very great points Sir!  It keeps the oil in and the dirt out, just like any other crankshaft seal.

"The original oiling system was designed to a price point, at gun point, as a matter of politics"                                                                                                                      is (I think) probably more accurate than we realize, with the conditions and political climate at the time the VW was originally designed.  The time being just barely out of automotive technology's infancy, a lot of engineering principles and successful ways of doing things we take for granted today were still being worked out.  Yeah, it's crude (by today's standards), but here's the kicker- the pulley threads worked.  Should VW (probably about the time of the debut of the 36hp engine) have added a rear seal- sure, but when operated and maintained within it's original design parameters it still worked, so I can understand why it never happened.  Should we, building these engines to much higher displacements (even a 1776 adds more than 10% volume to the stock 1600 that needs be dealt with inside the crankcase) and higher (sometimes MUCH higher) redlines, update our little watch winders with a proper rear seal and breather system (which the stock engine, in it's different iterations, also didn't need) to keep them from puking all over the place every time we seriously play with the go pedal- we know it's needed, the technology is here and it's easy enough to do, so why not?

I have the same steel pulley hub/aluminum pulley from JayCee @Michael McKelvey. I have both the threaded hub and the seal hub. It is extremely well-made, and has a 36-1 trigger wheel on the back side. I machined the pulley myself to fit.

I'm really not a fan of the "slip-in" seal carrier, although I put one on my Vee motor with a Scat dry sump pulley. You only need the pulley for setting timing and oil control. Most guys machine the factory pulleys down to just a nub. Anyway, it's a good idea to use something to glue the seal carrier in. I used trim adhesive.

I also have the Gene Berg "sand seal" I mean rear seal case cutter. It works GREAT on a completely together motor(as in my Spyder motor). It is just sometimes difficult to remove the key from the crank to use the cutter. And then get it back in again. But I wouldn't go back. Not that you can, because you can't! I used their double lip seal, and have a spare in case my motor ever needs a bottom-end rebuild.

I have spent several days trying to get the damaged JayCee alternator pulley off.  Finally, I bought a little 3-arm puller.  With some effort, I was able to bend the alternator shaft.  So now, I am shopping for a new alternator.  It seems like the least expensive ones are on Amazon.

Now, with these pulley issues and all the woes described in my Stupidity thread, it seems like upgrading my cylinder tins may have been a bad idea.  That is what started the avalanche of problems.

I don't know the capacity of my current Motorola alternator.  Even though I have all LED lights and probably don't need them, I am considering getting a higher-capacity alternator.

55 Amp will do the job and unless you have H-3 headlights and driving lights and or an amp. Be careful as to what brand of alternator you purchase so many are Chinese junk in a box.

@Alan Merklin, thanks for your reply.  My headlights are LED.  There is a low-power amp with my radio, maybe 200 watts.

I haven't seen a brand associated with the alternators I looked at except Bosch.  One website said the Bosch ones are no longer made although some are still around.  The ones I saw were over $300 while some non-Bosch were under $100.

I am thinking I might want black or chrome.

Does anyone have experience with an alternator from Car Craft or a Kuhltek one?

I ordered an alternator from Car Craft.  If anyone is thinking of doing this, be aware that the alternator and shipping costs are significantly lower in their theSamba ad than on their website.

Good luck!

@edsnova, are you wishing me good luck because you expect me to have problems with the alternator?

Not at all, Michael. I am wishing you good luck because you've not had much lately in this realm.

OK, thanks for your good wishes. Tomorrow I will try to get the crank pulley off. I am wondering if I will have trouble getting the sand seal holder off.

Two prybars top and bottom, easy pry on the case part line will work fine. The seal carrier isn't in there very tight at all.

If I can do it, you can do it. My Car came with a lot of oil spinning out of the seal, and I just replaced with another one.  I think the space for the seal actually can hold two seals, and I think that what I did.  The tins there get a little moist after a while, but its an easy wipe up.

The "sand seals" from Scat,etc. are cheap and not good quality. I replaced mine with SKF/CR double lipped seal which works much better, with "sand seal pulley" .I would still get a little weepage but after installing a 4th breather position (2 valve covers,cover where  mechanical fuel pump would go,and oil filler neck. This additional venting really helped,since the 2080 motor I have has a lot of windage.

It's not really the number of vents you have, but the size of them. That along with the health of the rings and valve guides can either make or break your "clean engine" mission. Your shift point matters too. If you never go above 4000-4500 rpm you won't have much problems. Go up to 6000-6500 and it's a different story.

I have AN-8 hoses on each valve cover. But my main breather comes from the distributor hole and is 3/4" I.D. and goes to a large tubular breather(75 cu. in.) with baffles, stainless steel wool, and drainback tube. That makes the difference for my application.

The 3-4 valve cover fills up, the 1-2 side not so much. Theoretically you could have a large hose on the crankcase and one on the 3-4 valve cover and have it work just fine with a 2332.

@JamesBondSilver posted:

The "sand seals" from Scat,etc. are cheap and not good quality. I replaced mine with SKF/CR double lipped seal which works much better, with "sand seal pulley" .

Sounds perfect. Got a part number?

@DannyP posted:

It's not really the number of vents you have, but the size of them. That along with the health of the rings and valve guides can either make or break your "clean engine" mission. Your shift point matters too. If you never go above 4000-4500 rpm you won't have much problems. Go up to 6000-6500 and it's a different story.

I have AN-8 hoses on each valve cover. But my main breather comes from the distributor hole and is 3/4" I.D. and goes to a large tubular breather(75 cu. in.) with baffles, stainless steel wool, and drainback tube. That makes the difference for my application.

I couldn't agree with either of these posts more. I spin my engine higher than most anybody here. If a valvetrain and bottom end will hold together to 7000 RPM, I'm not shy at all about regularly winding out to 6500, which means that case pressurization is a problem to contend with.

The new engine will go in the car this winter, and I tried something I've never done before - valve stem seals. The heat generally destroys the Mexican OEM style, but I sourced some aftermarket 911 seals that we made work (the guide perches needed cut. They fit under the valve-springs because we're running single beehives. I used Deeves rings, which have a reputation for being on the softer end of the spectrum, and a Total-Seal second. We'll see.

Regarding breathers - I fabbed up a breather tank that has 2-1/2 gallons of capacity, and have a 1" hose (3/4 I/D) running from my CB breather tower. I've got a 3/4 hose on the top of the box running down to a Moroso check-valve vent, which uses the vacuum generated at by the Bernoulli effect to suck off the top of the ginormous box. It works great until the "cackle" of overrun (poppity pop pop on trailing throttle) blows out the check valve, so I vent to atmosphere. I've got the vents on the valve cover, but currently just run them up above the level of the top of the engine, and have little filters on the ends of them.

To summarize - if you have a stock-stroke engine and only run to 5000 RPM, then the stock breather tower vented to the airfilters is probably adequate, assuming your rings are OK. If you have a stroker, and want to rev, more is more. How much you need really depends on more than a generalization can provide.

More is more.

^^^ What @DannyP said^^^  Increase the tubing size to the breather so the oil mist slows down, the oil can then fall out of suspension and run down the tubing walls back to the engine.  You're increasing crankcase volume, which slows down air movement and now there's not the pressure on the seals there was before.

@Gordon Nichols found that going from 3/8 to 5/8" (which more than doubles the volume in the tubing) on the valve covers did the trick, I believe even with the normally useless tiny breather box the aftermarket sells.

^^That's true ^^.  

I have the CB Perf breather box mounted to the alternator stand and I upped the hoses from the top of the box to the air filters to 5/8" ID and that eliminated almost all weeping at the crankshaft.  They look like they mean business, too.

I do not have a "sand seal" on my engine and shift usually somewhere between 3K and 5K, depending on how hard the geriatric in the next lane is driving.  I prefer to have the tin below the crankshaft slightly oil-moist because that tells me the case's slight internal pressure is pushing dust and dirt out past the crank slinger, not in.  It's not a lot - maybe a drop or two if I've been pushing it hard for a couple of hours.  I don't notice any oil loss between changes @3K miles.

@Stan Galat posted:

Sounds perfect. Got a part number?

Sure. Timken 321460. BUT it requires a bit of machining. The seal is the same diameter as all of the seals. But it is thicker. The single lip seals are all about 1/4" thick.

I bought the Berg case cutter, and cut my case with the engine assembled. It only requires temporarily removing the key from the crankshaft.

According to Gene Berg, this double lip seal is 0.385" thick. It requires a 0.110" cut on it, making it 0.275" thick when finished.

Or order it from Berg already cut(GB 709a), or not(GB 709).

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.ph...381df4l2te2u3ru0gq23

This is my spare:

It sounds like this alternate seal is only for the machine-in seal.

Measure your carrier before you jump to that conclusion.

Would depth be an issue with the carrier?  I wouldn't be able to increase the depth of it and the seal would stick out beyond the carrier.  My carrier depth is 1/4".

I don't know that it means anything but, the name on the seal looks like HTCWR.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

Would depth be an issue with the carrier?  I wouldn't be able to increase the depth of it and the seal would stick out beyond the carrier.  My carrier depth is 1/4".

I don't know that it means anything but, the name on the seal looks like HTCWR.

Mike, the size of the seal is usually on it.  The CB one I have uses an HTCWR  seal, size  46x58x7mm.  It is a double lipped seal. The carrier depth is 6mm, the seal sticks out about 1 mm.

HTC is a designation for a rotary oil seal, what the WR means, I have no idea.

The Berg/Timken seal is 2.258" in diameter, x 25.4 = 57.35mm, which would fit the same carrier I think.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

Would depth be an issue with the carrier?  I wouldn't be able to increase the depth of it and the seal would stick out beyond the carrier.  My carrier depth is 1/4".

I don't know that it means anything but, the name on the seal looks like HTCWR.

You'll have to measure the pulley to see where the inner seal area ends up. It is possible that you may have to space the pulley out, and do the same thing on your alternator to align the pulleys.

It's one of the reasons I cut my case, no spacers are needed then.

On the Vee I installed a carrier and seal, there is no alternator to worry about and a spacer works fine there.

Be advised, there is more than one sand seal pulley size.  Some are cut to 1.770", others, CB Performancefor one, use 1.182".  Measure carefully to insure you get the correct part.

@LI-Rick, mine is also from CBP and is 46 x 58 x 7.  My seal looks like yours but I only see one lip in your photo and on my seal.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@LI-Rick, mine is also from CBP and is 46 x 58 x 7.  My seal looks like yours but I only see one lip in your photo and on my seal.

Mike, that is a double lip seal. Look closely and see picture below.

@LI-Rick, thanks for pointing this out.  I didn't realize that I have a double lip seal.

I hope I can remember all of this if/when I ever need.

Breather plumbing:  might be more has been written/said about this that any other single thing. Please take all that follows with a grain of salt, as I really do not know all the variables that come together to make or break the deal.  I'll just tell about my engine, and leave it at that. Initially, I wondered mightily about this brether business.  My builder, JPS -- (I heard those guffaws . . .)  offered that what he provides: a hose from oil filler pipe to top of one carb, is all anybody would ever need.  N.B.: I have a 2332 engine, with what has been described to me as a mild cam.  (Other specs available upon request).  I might hit 5500 rpm on some occasions, especially trying to keep Carlos or Stan or Mr. Pip within sight.  probably have topped 6 grand once in a while, but not routinely.  Anyway, I have toyed with adding VC breathers, oil separator, etc., but I have not.  I did get tired of the oil mist slopping up the top of my carb, and along the way with sorting out all of my  Weber issues, I said f--- it, the old VWs (very old) just ran that breather pipe out and down to the ground, so WTF, I'll do that too.  Please don't tell the EPA.  As I mentioned, I do get a little bit of oil smudge at the pulley tin, but nothing to get worked up about.  i do not use much oil, and that breather pipe exit is only slightly moist.  So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I run all 4 to the CB breather box mounted behind the fan shroud on the "shelf" that Beck provides. The problem with that breather box? The small "slits" that are machined in it at the mating surface of the top cover are too small. I did 2 things to make this breather box work better,I used copper scouring pad and put that inside instead of the "foam" that comes with it,and I used 2X 1mm washers on each side to "lift " the lid to allow it to vent better. Works great!