SAS? Anyone?

Strangely silent, isn't it?

Here's what I know from my own record and the SAS owners forum (www.sasowners.freeforums.org) regarding the queue and completed cars:

 

The Eastman car was completed in Nov, 2012.  My car was completed in Aug, 2013.  Nothing has been completed since.

 

That means that SAS has delivered one car in 2 years, 4 months.  As unbelievable as it sounds, the two guys who have been waiting the longest for their cars joined the queue in Oct & Nov 2007!  They are now well into their EIGHTH year of waiting.

 

One of the many excuses for non-performance listed by the fans of SAS is weather.  As in, who could actually build cars when it's cold outside, or rainy outside?  I guess the other builders actually have shops with doors that close, space heaters, etc.  Weird but true.

Wow!

I know they are great cars and business is a hard thing to do but, having managed my own Suby swap in less than record time, I swear I could build something like an SAS Speedster in my own garage in less than eight years, even while working 40+ hours per week as a reporter and doing my chores around the house and yard.

 

Something is not right.

I just visited the SAS owners forum. Wow!, as Marty said. Looks like there are less than  20 owners, but a lot of "depositors".

 

One fellow commented that there are lots of builders represented on this site, but those cars aren't anything like the SAS product. He is correct, the first point of differentiation is that they were delivered to an owner and I imagine in much less than the 5 years that some of those unfortunates waited, or may well wait to get their vehicles.

 

I understand that the SAS product is supposed to be "superior" to some of the other entries in the field, (I have a Vintage), but the best car is the one you have taken delivery on and are enjoying, IMHO.

 

Those folks are really patient. I hope they are happy in the end.

are deposits refundable? 

Oh boy!!  I gotta go get my popcorn, 'cause I have seen this merry go round run before, and it gets feisty.  Wonder what it will be like this time??

Yeah, and John Eastman sold his IIRC. He mentioned it on fb. Don't know who bought it.

Scott Teele had his for sale.  I don't know if it sold or not.

Is there any indication he is completing other cars?  I heard he was also building streetrods but don't know if they are being completed while the Speedsters are not.

 

BTW, Stuart Hilliard came to the 2013 and was waiting for a SAS, I wonder what the status is of his car?      

To my knowledge, SAS is currently building Speedster replicas only.  Stuart Hilliard is about #16 on the list.  That means, at the present building rate, his car should be finished in 2039.  Of course, the builders look to be about my age, possibly a little younger.  Statistically, they will be long gone by 2039, as will I.

 

Stuart did lots of research to help compile the current queue of 19 SAS customers who have paid a deposit, but haven't gotten their car.  Moosex was a guy on SOC, who tried to sell his spot in the queue when he realized how long it would take to get a car.  To my knowledge, no one offered to buy his spot.  Same with Teale's car: to my knowledge, no offers to buy. 

19?!?

 

Wow. I'm just so sorry.

I just don't get it. The information is available and the math is real simple.  Why do people continue to place orders?  Hell, I do at least a little research before I even buy a toaster.

TW

 

Please don't blame the victims. 

OK, so we won't blame the victims, but there were numerous posts on here about how long it was taking for buyers to receive their cars and STILL they gave him their (nonrefundable) deposits.  It's not like they were not forewarned.

I'm with Tom Williams  - I don't get it - but from a slightly different perspective.  How can this continue?  People have their money invested and nothing happens either legally or...?  They're not able to get their deposit back or don't want to?  There are other manufacturers out there!      

When was the last deposit taken? (Perhaps I missed this?)

I look forward to seeing Stuart's car at Carlisle when I am 94.

Ed,

What Gordon said X2.

 

I need to rush my deposit to them so I can get the soon to be announced hydrogen drive with self levitating suspension. At least I'll have some time to decide on color combo.

Only SAS knows when the last deposit was taken, and he has repeatedly refused to publicize the number of buyers or the amount they have deposited.  If a prospective buyer doesn't join a group like ours or the SAS owners group and identify himself, no one outside of SAS management even knows he/she is on the list.

 

What that means is that there are 19 self-identified people in the queue.  No one really knows how many others exist, or how much deposit money has been collected. SAS advertises 22? owners' car that have been built, but the last one advertised on the site has not been delivered yet.  

 

The poor guys still on the list have only unpleasant options available: 1) tough it out and hope for a miracle, 2) try to sell your place (which hasn't proven successful), or 3) band together to seek available legal remedies.

 

In the past, other members in the queue sued Stephen W. Lawing dba Specialty Auto-Works in Tennessee state court.  After the $440,000 judgment was awarded, Lawing filed for bankruptcy in the Eastern district of Tennessee Bankruptcy Court. The 22 victims' damages were wiped out by the bankruptcy.

 

This doesn't bode well for those still in the queue, does it?

 

As I have always stated in the past, if you are researching a replica manufacturer, don't rely on one source of information, including me.  Get as many as you can.  Google the current name of the business: Specialty Auto-Sports.  FYI, the bankruptcy records are available online: Stephen W. Lawing dba Specialty Auto-Works.  Bankruptcy finally closed in Jan. 2012.  Caveat emptor!

 

 

But guys, he can build you a car that is almost water tight in say......5 years.

 

This guy should spend some time in the slammer, I'd suggest at least the average n umber of years it has taken him to produce a finished car X 19.

 

I know he has his supporters, but this is ridiculous. I just feel terrible for the folks who are in this mess.

 

I'll bring the popcorn. Where's Vince?

I did not mean to insight a riot but every time I see that SAS ad it makes me wonder if a newbie really knows what is going on.

I think I just learnt what Legalized Theft is.

Make that Carmel Corn!

 

~WB

How about Rock West Racing, aka CCW, aka TR.

 

Similar to SAW, now SAS.

 

And go back to CMC, aka Fiberfab, aka Street Beasts.

 

The names change but the BS remains the same.

Interesting.

 

I hate to rip open an old scab, but there's been some talk about Tom Dewalt's car on another thread being for sale again. I wonder how many people remember the build-up to Tom Dewalt's build? The excitement, the enthusiasm (as good as an Intermeccanica!) I do. I remember how many current and former JPS owners were telling Tom to curb his expectations, and were pilloried for it (like I'm likely to be pilloried for dredging up "ancient history" now). I do, because I was flamed pretty badly at the time for being "Debbie Downer", etc.

 

The thing is, I was just like Tom Dewalt a couple of years before-- a guy with some big expectations, with an ear full of even bigger promises. My car, as delivered, fell WELL short of every promise made. I had nothing to gain from talking about it, but tried to keep a guy I didn't know from getting burned as well. As is usual in these circumstances, the advise was brushed aside.

 

The car, as delivered, was pretty much what Tom was told to expect. It was not a matter of "sorting": it was a disaster. Nobody ever said, "we told you so", but... well, we told him so.

 

The whole thing made me wonder-- why do successful people (and we are all successful if we have the disposable capital for a fancy golf-cart) go against warning and evidence, and expect that their experience will be different than anybody else's. I think it has something to do with the fact that we ARE successful, and have arrived at that point (we tell ourselves) by being shrewd negotiators with an eye for value.

 

Speedster-world is a bit weird though. It's not a "normal" good or service with a lot of competition. The business model for building replicas is "marginal" at best, so there are very few people willing to try to make a living at it. They are either passionate, or crazy, or thieves and charlatans.

 

The charlatans traffic in dreams. Speedster are dream-cars. There are a lot of people less interested in the actual cars, than the dream of owning one. Plunking down some money allows a guy to enter into the dream-world and join the club. Since it's all a dream anyhow, they tell themselves that they will be the winner-- that they hold the winning lottery ticket, the one that allows the bearer inside the chocolate factory.

 

Steve Lawing realized this. The whole structure is a house of cards, built on lies and dreams. That's a powerful combination. There have been others before him to do the same thing, and there will be others that come after he's either dead or in prison. It's all a matter of degree.

Yum --popcorn and now a cold beer, just what I need for a Sat'y night of entertainment.

 

PS: I believe the bandits described here should be punished.  Jail might be satisfying, but better they should lose whatever assets they have paying back the deposits, pennies to the dollar, no doubt, and then work their asses off until the rest is returned at court-ordered labor.  It seems not unlike a Ponzi scheme, just using cars instead of stocks, or whatever.  They keep writing business on future promises to pay the wolves at the door today, and not really delivering the goods.  I met a furniture salesman one time doing this.  He was already bankrupt, and the seizure police were pretty much on the way, but he still had his store front open, and was showing furniture to folks who walked in and taking orders and deposits, mine included.  Needless to say I never saw my sofa nor the cash I gave him, nor him, again.  Bankruptcy, as I said.  Fraud and robbery was what it was, and "bankruptcy" laws just made it sorta, kinda legal.  Like many of these folks, he likely set up shop under a new name, and just kept right on doin' a lousy job.  Grrrr . . . .

I don't want to get sued for libel, but wasn't the owner of SAS indicted or something?  If my memory is incorrect, I apologize. 

 

In any event, I wonder what sort of verbal or written promise is made by SAS to its potential customers regarding build times.  There must be some breach of contract claim for some of the people on the waiting list. 

 

I am a patient person.  I could wait a year, or perhaps 18 months.  But no way would I ever consider purchasing a vehicle with a wait time of two years...let alone 7 or 8!

I need to be completely clear about one aspect of this discussion, since there may be some misunderstanding.  When a company, corp, business or individual is about to declare bankruptcy, it's not "sorta, kinda" legal for them to continue to accept payments and deposits, even if they know to a moral certainty that the product will never be delivered.  It's completely and entirely legal in all 50 states.  Secretaries and phone clerks may have some indication that their work environment is about to implode, but, until the day the doors are locked, business continues as usual, and their instructions about incoming funds don't change.

 

Bankruptcy is not set up to pay creditors, that's only a vague possibility, which is rarely utilized.  Bankruptcy is set up to pay the gummint whatever taxes and penalties they can orchestrate, then to forgive the guy/gal who went broke, irrespective of the cause.  Way, way down at the bottom of the list is victim restitution.  We all know the phrase: pennies on the dollar.

 

I'm not saying that all bankruptcies are bad, or all those who use it are at fault. The housing crisis is a reminder that good people can be caught in circumstances beyond their control.  However, there doesn't seem to be any downside for a guy who just can't keep it between the fence posts, and doesn't really try.  

 

Some people really shouldn't be in business for themselves.  In SAS's case, the bk court took the extraordinary step of mandating a business practices class for the owner.  Guess he flunked the class, eh?

 

It reminds me of the old, old joke about wealth, power, and the common man: If Joe Sixpack owes the bank $20,000 on his home mortgage, the bank throws him under the bus, and repo's his house.  If Donald Trump owes the bank $2 billion dollars, they take him out to dinner. 

Stan,

I think its called insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Dreams can be very powerful things.  Reality is the train coming in to the station. Keep putting the word out.  I'm sure lots of folks you may not even be aware of have heeded the warnings....

Wolfgang, you have way, way, way too much patience!

 

There was a local TV reporter that did a story on Slick A' Steve ( SAS) to no avail.....

The remedy is for potential buyers to somehow become educated herein or elsewhere and not do business.

How dumb to believe that it is SOP to wait years for a car. The only actual recourse its for the local Attorney General to investigate SAS and charge him with grand larceny. 

"There has to be some remedy for the victims. Is a class-action civil suit possible?"

 

Sure, but what's left to pay them with?

 

Way up above it was mentioned; "In the past, other members in the queue sued Stephen W. Lawing dba Specialty Auto-Works in Tennessee state court.  After the $440,000 judgment was awarded, Lawing filed for bankruptcy in the Eastern district of Tennessee Bankruptcy Court. The 22 victims' damages were wiped out by the bankruptcy."

 

To me, and be aware that I don't have a lot of experience with individual claims as I lived in a corporate world, that means that all "victim's" claims are dissolved post bankruptcy unless the bankrupt individual chooses to provide some sort of restitution, at his or her discretion, after paying original victim claims.  And they certainly will get "pennies on the dollar".

 

So after all that, tell me what incentive SAS and Mr. Lawing has for even starting the next car?  If there was any money left after bankruptcy payouts, then maybe finish what's sitting on the shop floor to get it out of the way and then find something else (non-356) to build - if he builds anything else at all.  We all know he has inadequate business management skills (so did the BK judge, apparently) so maybe he should use his credible fabrication skills by working for a good business manager....I don't know.

 

All we can do on here is to continue to provide information and background to new prospects.  Some will heed our warnings but, as we've all seen, others will not and get burnt.  The same goes for any other builder whom we've seen deliver shoddy or un-safe product and as I've stated on here before......I can almost tolerate shoddy workmanship (but there's still no excuse for it if someone is paying you money for your expertise), but there is NO excuse for shipping an un-safe product that could potentially injure the unsuspecting new owner.  THAT should require some court time. 

 

As far as Hoss is concerned.....He (and a number of others) received his car and got first-class service over the years, as have other members of the "I got mine" club.  They should be, and are, very happy with their purchases.  Good for them.  That doesn't explain what's happened at SAS after their cars, nor does it justify the subsequent actions of SAS.  Lawing chose a poor business practice model and is paying the price for it.

So why are they allowed to still post their ad on this site?  I know the site relys on this income but I am surprised that they are allowed to show their face here...

Todd, free country and innocent till proven guilty.  Even then it's easy to pray on new victims.

About a year and a half back before I got my IM I watched all of the SAS videos and called Steve to discuss building me a SAS outlaw speedy.  He told me he was thinking about building speedys only since he said he could build speedys in a timely fashion.  He promised me he could build me a car in a year.  He was very convincing, a great salesman.  He sent me a very impressive build sheet and contract.  $32,000 for a VERY nice speedy.  Impressive.  Then I did a little research on this site and started looking for used IMs.  Mid engine suby with suby tranny, brakes etc.  It was very tempting.  Was out all day in my IM yesterday.  Would have been at home dreaming about my SAS.

Yep sounds like SAS builds in dog years.

"But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day." 2 Peter 3:8

 

Messiah complex?