I love forums – just shoot the messenger! I didn’t know that relating facts to a friend on SOC put me in the Madoff category. I did not try and interpret the facts – this is just what happened. I did not try and justify slow delivery by SAS. What part of the Madoff thing have I become a part of?
Guru- That's all well and fine, but people are still being screwed by the guy. Most of the people who have put down deposits will NEVER RECEIVE THEIR CARS!
And that's the bottom line...
You are probably correct, but there is another alternative. They could get their money back and many have.
There are several issues on this thread and I was only addressing one of them - the 356a Speedster website that some found a bit mysterious. I find I operate better when I possess some background on an issue and not just assumptions. In this case, I was not trying to support or defame SAS.
The facts seem to be that Specialty Auto-Sports is unable to deliver cars at the promised date. No one seems to be able to address and explain that singular problem. SAS supporters stress how "increasingly complicated" the builds have become, since SAS only uses the latest innovations from Subaru. That one problem seems easily manageable: don't just buy one salvage car at a time from Subaru salvage sellers. Buy 10 cars from the same year. Then they aren't "increasingly complicated". Of course, that would eliminate the big excuse.
The buyers want their cars. They could care less if the car they receive has ABS brakes or not. Unfortunately, the SAS owner is an inveterate tinkerer, and it's his fixation on adding new innovations that contributes to the SLLLLLLOOOOOWWWW build time, not consumer demand, or the changing technology of Subaru. Example: my coupe was completed in 2013, and the donor car was a 2008 Outback, with 43K miles. Does a 5-year-old donor car inordinately increase the build time for SAS? Apparently so.
You just have to wonder what those guys do all day. John Eastman's car was delivered in Nov. 2012. My car was delivered in Aug. 2013. That's the total output to date. It doesn't take an MBA to recognize an unsustainable business model. Something may be going on with SAS, but their business doesn't seem to be building replicas.
If someone really wants to defend SAS, perhaps they could explain what business SAS is really in, and how they stay in business without building cars. At their build rate for the past few years, you couldn't pay the electricity bill, never mind the mortgage, insurance, taxes, and wages for employees.
The assets listed by the business in the Ch. 7 bankruptcy, which was finalized in 2012, told the story of a business that was basically judgment-proof. Money is coming from somewhere.
You are correct, Mr. Kelly, SAS is unable to deliver cars by the promised date. No matter how hard I try, I cannot explain why this is so, perhaps for two reasons – I don’t know and you have your own opinions already.
Does this mean that we all cannot participate in the forum with our own experience? Perhaps I am fortune that my experiences with SAS have been mostly positive, not all. I think I am capable of relating to most situations concerning replicas and specialty car builders since I have worked with four builders on seven cars since 1998. I have had several disappointments.
I can assure you that no one has had more discussions on fulfillment with SL than I in an attempt to remedy the present situation. SAS is on a vector determined only by SL. I cannot change it but choose not to get angry about it. I know most of the details of everything on this thread and more, which includes your car and the repairs. I hope that awareness makes me a better blogger. But, this thread should not be about me.
As for being a defender of the actions of SAS, you must have me confused with one of the other customers. As an enthusiast, providing facts to forum members on cars is what I try to do. I believe that was also the situation when your car was under assembly. My earlier comments on the VW-based kit website were offered in that vein.
I generally do not recommend litigation in these situations because the only folks that seem to come out ahead are the lawyers. I do understand the motivation of the folks in the queue to want an SAS car rather than a competitor. They are unique and powerful. The first one won a prize at Knott’s Berry and my 2009 coupe won at Carlisle.
So, Jim, what would you have me do differently?
guru 39,
Since you know that SAS depositors can get their money back "and many have" why don't you PM Roger and tell him how to go about retrieving his nineteen thousand dollars that Steve L. has been sitting on for five years?
Charles--I am unfamiliar with the "VW based kit website" you mentioned. Is there really such a site?
Originally Posted by Jim Kelly 2013 SAS coupe-Fiji:
...If someone really wants to defend SAS, perhaps they could explain what business SAS is really in, and how they stay in business without building cars. At their build rate for the past few years, you couldn't pay the electricity bill, never mind the mortgage, insurance, taxes, and wages for employees.
The assets listed by the business in the Ch. 7 bankruptcy, which was finalized in 2012, told the story of a business that was basically judgment-proof. Money is coming from somewhere.
Why Jim, they're in the business of taking deposits, of course!
They're not in the business of building cars...
A good con artist has to make enough people happy that he can keep the con going. The worse bad guy is the one you can't "spot" from the good guys. You have to be able to TALK to make any of this work. Everyone ever conned will tell you the "fellow talked me into it he was so smooth and seemed so sincere"
If you believe refunds are in the mail or will ever be in the mail you are a true believer.
Criminals of all manor have friends. Some times the friends just can't see the truth. It's understandable all of this. The $$$$$ tells the tale. Good guy makes ever effort to full fill his responsibility and if he can't he makes it right. NO ONE is saying this has happen in the case. Building a couple cars which are respected doesn't have a thing to do with rest of this. Good intentions ???? Do you really think so???? Seems to me there are some deluded people here. I would like to think the principal is one of them but my conclusion is he might be the only one not.
I say all of this with NO personal knowledge of ANY of the people involved so it's all based on assumption from what has been posted on the forum My mind is open but words alone will not change my opinion. This is criminal.
Jack Crosby:
This is only a concept that SL was working with his body maker and frame welder subcontractors. The kit consists of these two large components and directions on where to buy the rest of the parts. The instruction manual is a series of videos. Not sure if it will ever get off the ground. The concept sounds reasonable to me for folks with assembly talent. Here is the link:
Charles,
You and SAS have had a friendship for many years. As you know, I was once an ardent supporter of SAS also. That's likely why I felt like such an idiot when the business behavior of SAS continued to deteriorate. When I read your posts about SAS, I am reminded of Neville Chamberlain. He will not be remembered as a distinguished patriot or MP, but as an appeaser. In the end, we are, at least in part, remembered by those we associate with.
You seem to minimize the inability of SAS to actually produce cars: Well, yes, there is that one tiny, unexplained element of the long queue. That's like the old joke: Well, outside of that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
I believe that law enforcement will ultimately shut SAS down. For too many years, change has been promised: more employees, more efficiency, outsource of assembly, etc., yet none of the promises have produced results. The queue is actually longer now than it was 5 yeas ago.
It makes for a Draconian choice for those on the list: even a slight chance of delivery by SAS seems better than the Tennessee AG shutting him down. Restitution of down payments to victims can be court-ordered, but SAS has shown an alacrity for gaming the system in that event.
So, the situation is unpleasant in all its elements, bad for the victims, bad for the industry. You portray yourself as merely being the messenger, but you must be aware that you are actually seen as being a defender of SAS, rightly or wrongly. You were very helpful to me in the past when I needed reassurance, so I know your intentions are honorable. So were Neville Chamberlain's.
This lends a whole new meaning to the word defender – one who does not rant on a blog site about something he can do absolutely nothing about. So be it.
I’m for world peace too. 
I have to tell you that I find the last two posts on this thread VERY interesting. Jim I think you REALLY made good points and I loved the analogy to times not so long ago.
Guru39 I think you have to understand what we are suggesting is that in the face of right and wrong you should to go with right. You are suggesting that this is not clearly definable here.
For us to see your view (not even to agree but to just understand it) you have to support it with facts which I don't think you have done.. Or to say in spite of the evidence I choose to take an opposing view. Perhaps the statement "I believe in world peace as well" is just that. I will accept that.
The doors for the crematorium (for your money) are apparently open. Guru would you order a car and pay the deposit or advise a friend to do so ? Would you fight for your money to be returned if that was an option? Your answers clearly should be the final word.
There are plenty of facts in this thread as well as plenty of accusations and assumptions. A well informed consumer can separate the facts from assumptions and make a decision on where they want to put their money. As for those in the waiting pool, I just don't know what to say or how to help.
This thread is quickly disintegrating to arguments that are not going to benefit anyone.
So if there are no more objections, I'm going to give this thread another day or so and close it to further comment.
-=theron
John Heckman,
I am OK with your and Jim’s viewpoint. The beauty of this country is that we can have differing views and still have a beer together.
I am nearly 76 years old and I have been searching for a solution to the SAS dilemma for perhaps five years. The SAS owners are just as aware of the situation as you are. When I think we are about to get a few cars out the door, something happens and the saga continues. I do not know what the answer is. Jim would see the situation as black or white but IMO there are a lot of gray areas. I am not yet sure that shutting SAS down is the optimal solution.
I have chosen to remain communicative with SL as a way of perhaps influencing his actions towards the delivery of cars. I may be the best ally the queue has. I have been through the SL personal bankruptcy and all the law suits without overtly taking a position with regard to fault. I have chosen not to take a position in that there seems no reason to.
As recently as two days ago, I asked SL if he sold the shop, could he cover the refund of all the contracts. He indicated that he would like to continue building cars as this remains his passion and has a plan. My question was asked based on a comment on this thread.
I continue to believe that the SAS Suby Speedsters are the most innovative cars that have been introduced into the Speedster world in the last 25 years. I also owned an IM for about 10 years (now sold) and loved it as well and could make direct comparisons. They are very different animals. I think the difficulty is that the SAS owners or former owners are aware of what they have/had and realize what it is. We simply hate to see the SAS breed of Speedster die out.
Perhaps we are looking for a miracle that will never happen. I know where you are coming from but would appreciate some understanding of why there might be a tendency for some of us to keep SAS on life support. It is truly unique and I have a car in the queue as well.
In recent years, I have not recommended that folks get in the queue other than buying up, which is not doing well either. I do recommend buying a used one when they become available.
I see Theron is shutting down this thread and with perhaps good reason. Sometimes the humor is not very humorous.
An ethical person would stop for a minute and assess where he is currently at with the production of current cars, assess how many are in the "queue", and exactly how many of those cars he will be able to produce in a realistic time frame (say no more than 6 months for each car), stop taking deposits on cars that will never be built, and finish the queue.
If a man can only build 1 widget per year and he has orders for 20 widgets it will obviously take him another 20 years to build those widgets. If that same widget builder is in his 60's is it believable that he will be building widgets into his 80's? I doubt it.
That is what an ethical man would do but a proud man won't. He should swallow his pride, bring in some help, and get those cars built or start returning people's money without a court forcing him to do so.
That is what an ethical man would do.
I take offense to injustice.
I agree the thread should be closed but appreciate the opportunity stand up for "justice and the american way" Who said that???
I recall Steve was building streetrods before he got into the Speedster business. Is the same thing happening with the streetrod building? Is there a queue of them waiting for completion too?
No, only 356a. The street rods are long gone.
Wasn't Stevie Wonder was a sub contractor aka a assembler for Street Beasts?
............."justice and the american way" Who said that???
............Some $4.50 an hour announcer :~)
All of us are imperfect human beings, and I am no exception. I have made business mistakes and mistakes in my personal life in the past, and, since I'm still alive and still in business, am likely to make more errors in the future. But, that's not my complaint. This is not a simple error in judgment. This is a calculated plan to keep a business alive at the expense of its customers.
When I realize I have made a mistake, I do my best to rectify it. Sometimes, a simple apology to a friend or loved one suffices. Sometimes, I need to offer an economic incentive to a customer. I try to do what it takes to make up for my error.
How many years have we been discussing the faults of SAS? 4 years? 5 years? Has anything changed in that time? Yes, the queue is longer, and more people have paid deposits. To this day, he continues to assert to a prospective customer that he will build him a car in 2 years. Some guys just can't keep it between the fence posts and need to be put out of business.
If you guys want to read more about the subject, particularly my exchanges with the owner, go to www.sasowners.freeforums.org and look in the Build Report thread. There you will find that the reason for the failure of the SAS business model is with me, not the owner. At least that's what it reads like to me. You may gain additional insight on some posters on SOC as well.
Theron.
Are you legally obligated to continue displaying his advertisements? That is the only possible reason I can see that you would not shut them down. I think if you took a poll you would find that 99.9% of the SOC members would prefer they were gone and that it is the ethical thing for the SOC to do. Please explain why you can't or won't.
I also think that a link to this thread should be placed in the "Ready for a Replica Speedster? (Everything you need to know)" Featured Topics. If there is anything that any potential buyer needs to know, this is certainly it.
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OMG....
Am I to believe that there are people still giving this con man money.
Theron, is it true you are still allowing Steve L to advertise on this site?
If so, you should be ashamed...No amount of money should allow this to happen.
I cannot add anything to this thread that hasn't already been said.... [REMOVED]
Big shout out to Danny....miss you bro...OK, you to Marty...
After submitting my reply to this thread, I realized I may have come down a little hard on Theron with the "Ashamed" thing, but I do believe that this site provides a service to prospective buyers, and anything related to ASS, I mean SAS advertising on this site is actually a dis-service.
So, Theron, I apologize for my earlier post, but could you at least explain to everyone why you allow SAS to advertise, with the obvious record that he has.
I haven't personally seen any ads from SAS, but previous posts have said they exist.
OK, ball's in Theron's court. Whats he gonna do? Keep taking the ill-gotten gains, and pretend that SAS is going to have a miracle, and do right by its prospective customers? Or have a pang of social conscience and decide any further support, paid or otherwise, is not in accordance with the best intertests of the SOC and its business plan? Or is he just going to shut us down, and hope it all goes away?
Hey Vinny, how's it hangin'? we sure do miss your eloquent contributions to the fray around here. And the sporty pictures too . . .
Just scroll to the top of this page, and look on the right hand side: a SAS ad.:
"170HP - 315HP, water-cooled mid-engine Subaru, 356A Speedster, Cabriolet or Coupe
Specialty Auto-Sports, Inc."
Plus they are listed as a supporting merchant, with a link to their home web page. Plus other stuff too, I guess.
Originally Posted by guru39:
... I have a car in the queue as well.
And there you have it.
Is Guru really SL??? Really hard for me to believe that SL could have any advocates except for himself.
Stan - If I don't get it, I will not lose any sleep and am more concerned about the others. I have had my fun but would like to see folks receive their cars in a reasonable time frame.
Phil - I can assure you that I have been around a long time and many on the forum know me and a couple might even like me. This is not about advocacy but about trying to come up with some way to get cars completed. There are about 20 SAS Suby Speedsters running around the countryside so we know they can be completed. Other than perhaps Jim, most of us were very satisfied with the quality and performance of our SAS cars. They seem to do well on the used car market. Looking for a solution to a serious problem in deliveries does not make me an advocate nor does it qualify me for sainthood. I am just an older enthusiast with a slightly different perspective on how we might solve a dilemma. All of us could be wrong.
Guru,
Sounds like you're trying to get SL on one of those "Intervention" shows.
I guess money is no object for you, Guru. $5,000, $10,000, $15,000,$19,000. Serious money in my book.
I wish I could.
Guru- You can talk about "the most innovative cars" and everything else all you want, but the fact is that he's taking money from people and not producing product. You're coming across as one who's in the know- how does he plan to deal with the people who gave him deposits before the company went bankrupt? How can these people be waiting that long and still expect a car out of the deal? Their money's long gone, they've been screwed, and it didn't even feel good. He must talk a good one...
You guys are all expecting your Carlisle '15 t-shirts this year, right?
Rich, you crack me up!
Originally Posted by Rich Drewek:
You guys are all expecting your Carlisle '15 t-shirts this year, right?
I plan on coming naked from the belt up. You will definitely want to have those T shirts (or at least mine) there, Rich
Rich: It is serious money to all of us but I am not prone to stress out on something I can do nothing about. I have watched many with all the bravado in the world learn that our court system does not handle these things well. I will take the outside chance that I might get another car out of SAS (no. 4) rather than pay whatever the lawyer charges to get me $100/month settlement for more years than I have left on this planet
My only regret in this case is the cash is not available to give to my church but it will be OK as well.
ALB: I do communicate with SL occasionally but not so much anymore. I do not know the answer to your questions as I do not know the details of the bankruptcy settlement. As I recall, the bankruptcy was a personal one and not SAW/SAS. I believe the bankruptcy included his property and mostly the street rod crowd that was mentioned earlier on this thread. I think he worked out a settlement with all of them and some picked up their kits. This seems to be the way these things work.
To those who asked, Guru is NOT SL (said in best Maury Povich voice), but is in fact a fine man I am happy to call a friend even though we disagree a bit on the SAS situation.