SAS? Anyone?

I apologize to Guru.  The Guru obviously bows to another master.  Sorry, this grasshopper is not drinking the kool-aid.

Charles, what are you building or hoping to get built from SAS?  I know the last car was an Automatic Coupe that your wife could drive too.  I am just surprised that you would go back to a Speedster or Cab?

Phil (aka Grasshopper):  No apology required.  That's what we do on blog sites.  Hopefully we all just agree to disagree on some issues and meet for a beer later.  I was thinking more in terms of a Blue Moon than the Kool Aid.  Love those craft beers ...

Marty:  You know I am more exotic than that.  Quite a few years ago I bought a 904 body from a guy in Canada and sent it to SL.  SAS did some fiberglass repairs on it and built a frame.  SL has used it as a test bed for awhile and that was OK with me as I had nowhere to park it anyway.  This all happened pre-queue (maybe 2003).

There was a little nostalgia for me in that I was at Nurburgring in 1965 when three 904s first ran.  When the queue began to back up, I just let him use it as he saw fit. I do not drive much any more for several reasons related to old age so if SL ever delivers it, I will drive it around the block a couple of times and sell it. 

I had a couple of more projects like this over the years - one guy in AZ had health problems and closed his shop and the other in NC passed away before completing my second Bugatti replica.  Perhaps some on the forum may now understand me a bit better.

2 things. 1. Let's let Theron decide what is best for this site.  He is privy to all that goes on within its operation and we are not.  I fear that all these threats directed at his decision making may just be enough to make him "fold the tent" and leave us with nothing.  2.  Theron, if possible could you let this topic run, as the last several posts in my opinion have been very informative as to where parties are coming from and really what, where, who, how, and why some feel as they do.  I disagree with some authors but respect their opinions, especially when the thread runs long enough to help me understand where they are coming from.  I'd have a beer with any and all of them.  Just a request, but as mentioned earlier, do what you feel is best.  Thanks.

TW

Folks,

There is a big difference between Advertising and Endorsement.  This site accepts advertising and clearly marks it as such. Paid advertiser's user accounts are even marked in different colors so that their comments can be weighed against their own bias.

There are no paid endorsements to use any particular vendor or item.  You will not find and advertiser's products or business reviewed in a positive light just because they are an advertiser.  In fact the bottom of the manufacturer's page reads

"Inclusion of a manufacturer does not constitute an endorsement by SpeedsterOwners.com/SpyderOwners.com"

The very fact this thread stands as is, should clearly show whether my loyalty is to an advertiser or the community.  

And Vinny, no offense taken.  I just miss that you owe me some scotch and I haven't been able to take you up on it.  I also removed your comment about the members picture. Hope you don't take offense, I just don't want a ---- storm between you and him again.  

-=theron

Theron

I personally don't care if SL advertises on this site.  If by taking his money it helps to secure the viability of this site, so be it.  Obviously SL does not frequent the site.  He has to realize that he won't get any new business from SOC members.  Take his money until he figures it out.

I agree.  We can't stop people from ordering a car from SAS if they want, but you can use the advertising money.

Theron, come to SLO and I will give you all the scotch you can handle....

No ill will towards Jack, I just love busting his balls...It's what I do best...

I've now read every post on this thread. I don't have a dog in the fight but I care about the hobby. I also detest the kind of things reportedly perpetrated on folks involved in the hobby by the likes of CCW and SAS.

Bottom line, do the right thing by your customer. Deliver the product, finished and as promised by the agreed upon time or find a way to make it right, even if it hurts.

Make a couple of mistakes in the beginning relative to completion dates, OK. Make the necessary changes to the process and/or change what you commit to.

Continue to over-commit and under-deliver, by choice, and you will get a deserved reputation as someone not to be trusted and ultimately suffer the wrath of your customers and significant legal problems.

We don't hear about anything nearly this egregious by any of the other builders, so running one of these businesses the right way is clearly possible.

Not doing it right for years and years, and not learning from mistakes or circumstances is a choice, and there should be no excuses made for it, or mercy shown in evaluating it. This is, unfortunately, pretty simple and straight forward.

I feel better now.......

Caveat emptor my friends!

But you're taking advertising money from someone you KNOW is a shyster.

You know this guy cheats people, yet you advertise for him.

In my eyes you're putting money above all else and that's just wrong.

There is the legality which we are not qualified to lobby, then there is the morality and ethics of the issue at hand. Personally I cannot fathom how anyone can condone the business tactics that have been previously visited. Then to top that off Dave has a 30 minute phone conversation where SL and has no problem holding his hand for yet additional monies knowing that he cannot fulfill additional orders. It's amazing that he doesn't have a current license to operate a business yet he continues....... Just my .02

Tough one here, Ron O.  There is that niggling 1st amendment thing about free speech, which I know everyone here loves to exercise.  Then there is Therom trying to run a free-speech business, and do it impartially -- which goal I applaud.  And then there is what you have observed; knowingly taking money (and doing so is a passive endorsement, no matter what you say) from a shyster, or at least a grossly incompetent businessman, and so serving to prolong the agony, or at worst, aid and abet his shysterism.  And then there are the noble of heart and mind and deed who would wish that the skies part, the hand of God descends and the elves figure a way to hustle up and start producing cars at a reasonable rate and there are no more people in the que.  So we have to choose.  My opinion has been made above: disengage from this business and not be a party to it.  Tell SAS to put the money toward building cars as promised, or refunds, if folks ask for that.  Warn any and all within ear-shot that SAS is not the place to go to get a car built.  So, let's get on w/ the hobby and let SAS live or die as it will.  SL has made his bed, now he has to lie in it.

Technically SL is paying for advertising with the money he took from people some on this sight so in essence, he is helping keep this site alive therefore letting people complain about his company

I do have a dog in this fight, so I am encouraged by the participation.  However, there is no free speech right involved.  The First Amendment protects the rights of citizens against encumbrance of that speech by the government or one of its agents only.  We have no such scenario on these facts.  Theron owns this mode of communication, and, since he isn't acting for the gov., he has the penultimate right of acceptance or rejection of what we communicate.  While the internet and social media are new devices, compared to newspapers, there is still an abundance of black letter law that reinforces the rights of private property owners to enforce their own rules.  We all signed, in some testamentary capacity, that we understood the rules and would abide by them.

The analogy has been used that sites such as SOC are analogous of the "letters to the editor" column in the papers.  The management decides which letters to print, which to reject.  When we participate in online forums, such as SOC, we are, in effect, writing a letter to the editor.  It may be published, then later redacted.  Since the state is not involved, no violation of 1st amendment rights. 

So his advertising $$ go to support a forum where his business tactics are being challenged. Poetic justice.

Its like hanging him with the rope he bought from you.

This sort of thing has been going on for years, decades, really.

Not so many years back, word got out (mostly via email) about the shenanigans of several builders on the West Coast and one in Florida that were doing some pretty shady dealings - shoddy workmanship, short shipping stuff, brow-beating clients over the phone, not returning calls and emails, all of the stuff you're all familiar with.

Still, back then you ran to the book store or magazine rack to buy your favorite Kit Car Magazine and, lo and behold, there were all of their ads, telling you how wonderful they all were, with pristine examples of their work prominently displayed (along with sexy models) to entice you to buy their stuff.

And people read their ads and then turned around and bought their stuff and THEN discovered how truly awful they were to do business with.

One guy with a magazine decided to blow the whistle on the bad ones and in the end it cost him his business and his health when most of his advertisers pulled out and sued him and he couldn't afford to run his magazine anymore.

So flash forward to 2013 and nothing has changed.......some of those guys are still around (often under new company names) and some are new to us and they are STILL producing sub-standard product or providing a sub-standard buying experience and they are STILL advertising in magazines and/or forums and STILL finding new, un-informed people to plunk their money down for their dreams.

Theron is NOT the one to blame here.  He's running a social service and figuring out how to best pay for that social service as best he can.  Its a business and he's running this service for us.  He is not selling replica cars, he is providing a social communication service to his "members".

All we can do is continue to see what's going on and continue to get the word out whether it is good or bad.  It's just as important to talk about and tell people about the good builders out there, as it is to talk up the bad ones.  We've all seen what's going on, good and bad.  Keep talking about it.  Help others to avoid the bad ones.

There are two things I just cannot get around.

1. I sincerely believe that there does not exist enough cash in the bank at SAS to fulfill the orders he has taken. He is just living on borrowed time. I believe SL is using new deposit money to keep the wolves at bay. I foresee the day when the new depositor ends up w/ naught.  The writing is on the wall, and the history is there to prove intent.

2. Being in business making cars that you deliver six, eight, ten years down the road simply does not compute.  The cars may be something special in a number of ways, but they can't be that special.  And when you consider how many truly great builders there are that actually know how to do this business, and can make cars every bit as good, and in many cases better, for the same or less money and inside of a year ARO, it just makes no sense to me that he can keep 'em coming.  Sooner or later, it has to explode. 

    Well expressed Gordon...and in that vain allow me to complement Carey Hines's business acumen. I've never purchased anything with wheels that rolled out of their shop with a Beck badge on it , but I have purchased a couple of retrofitted items and was very satisfied with these transactions.

    I went to him through the recommendation of others...no ads, no hype, just reliable word of mouth. If we had a 'star rating system' Carey deserves my five stars.

Yes, Carey, and Henry at IM, are the best of the best in this game.