SAS Cabriolet

You probably won't have to worry much about quality or build issues because you'll never see the car get finished. I don't think he's finished a car in a couple years and there are at least 30 people ahead of you in line, no one knows for sure how many people are in the queue.

If you want an SAS find a used one.

Later today I'll post a link to "The Queue" so you can see for yourself.

It's a used car, Robert. He's actually buying something besides vaporware.

To answer the question: the guys who have owned one of Steve Lawing's cars are generally happy, in the same way that guys who hit the winning scratch ticket are happy-- they didn't expect to see any return on investment, but they're happy they did. I don't think the cars themselves are the issue-- it seems to be the lack of an actual car for the money spent that is.

That being said: Steve Lawing is (supposedly) trying to do something way out on the edge-- incorporate an entire Subaru drivetrain and wiring harness (ECUs, etc.) into a mid-engine package. I don't think he's trying all that hard, but that's just an outside observation (he's cranking out cars at a break-neck 1 car/yr pace, which would indicate he's doing this casually, as opposed to diligently). This thing he's doing is not an easy proposition.

Regardless, some owners have had issues with adequate cooling, etc. No matter what, you will most definitely be on your own with any issues with the car. However, that's generally the case with most handbuilt cars. Unless you live within driving distance of the Intermeccanica or Special Edition, you're going to need to learn to do things yourself, or find somebody to do them for you. The idea that you are going to take this car to a Subaru dealer and get work done is a fantasy that SAS/SAW guys have been living for years.

No matter what, a replica speedster is handbuilt. Proceed accordingly.

Sounds like you are buying Hoss' car.  Is it Red?   You really have nothing to worry about.

About a year ago, I bought an SAS Cabriolet that was built in 2012.  I LOVE it!

If you are buying an existing car, chances are that you are buying a car that is already well sorted.

Welcome to the madness

Hoss' car was built in '04, so it's probably not that one, but if it is, it may well be the best built SAS out there.

DOH!

I just tried to go to the SAS owners form, but it is down.

I was going to study "The queue" thread to see what cars were delivered in 2007

I understand John has sold his SAS to a fellow in California.  It's sad to see the Red Man leave.

As noted above, the issues with SAS have always (usually) been about the owner/builder and not with the cars.

That said, no two SAS cars are alike and you will be buying a one-of-one car.  That was because Lawing was exercising his design whims on each car he built, designing and incorporating things never before seen on these cars (replica or otherwise) and that makes each one unique.  That's not necessarily a bad thing - some of his touches were very cool - but you will have to be a competent mechanic, or have access to a competent auto shop, to service it.  Yes, it has a Subaru drivetrain and yes, you can plug in to the OBD II port for diagnostics just like a "normal" Subaru, but that's where the similarity ends and you will have to find a Subaru dealer or Indie shop willing to work on it.  Shops that work on customs (or even a tuner shop) would make my list.

Of course, if you're within driving distance to Knoxville, TN, you could have SAS work on it.   I have no idea what his turn-around time is for working on existing cars - his lead time to finish new cars is several years, plus, and many people just give up.

Thanks guys!  This is a red with Black top in

Arizona.  Rich Hazelwood is the seller.

if you go to the sold area on ebay

Porsche 356 you will see it.  The last two numbers of the VIN is 12, ie...sounds like it may be the 12th one??

So do I back out and run, which I hate to do ?  Really not looking to get into a can of worms!!  Just wanting a nicely finished well running car.  States it has 2500 miles on it??

again, keep those thoughts coming!!  Tom

I took my SAS to an import dealer that sells both Porsche and Subaru... They turned their nose up at it and refused to service it.   I have purchased 2 Foresters there.   My next one will come from their competitor.

There are plenty of tuner shops, though.

WOW!  If you got that car for $25,000, you did well!!  Congratulations!

A new one like that would be in the neighborhood of $50,000, and you might have to wait 5 years or more

Thanks Jethro and the guys!  If you go to eBay and put  Porsche 356 and go to the sold filter it should be the first one filtered out,  eBay number is 122245774262.  Just not sure what to do???!!!  If someone could take s look and see what they think!!  Thanks again.  I either need to get egg on my face and back out or keep it.  Bought for $25k.

Jethro-You mentioned you would go another route the second time around.  Is it due to quality, ie...if you could find a used one would you buy it?  What level of quality are Steve's car???  Vintage? IM? levels.

Congratulations, Tom! You have probably cornered the entire SAS/SAW output for the year 2007!

If I were you, I would consider Stan and Gordon's comments as the foundation for your decision as well as getting a pre-purchase inspection before closing the deal. Unfortunately, I don't know of anyone in Arizona qualified to do that on the car in question.

Perhaps an appeal to someone in the SOC living in AZ. would help.

Hi Tom,

The first thing you need to do is relax and take a deep breath.  The sun will still come up tomorrow, irrespective of what you decide.

I ordered an SAS coupe, which was delivered in 2013.  It was a real nightmare of a story, but mostly irrelevant to your concerns.  What you need to determine is whether your car is OK as is, needs some TLC, or is a lemon that you need to unload.

From SAS' website, the red car was built for Randy, date unknown, with a 2.5L Subi, automatic tranny, bumper guards, and a T-handle shifter.  It has 165 HP, so the engine is natuarlly-aspirated, no turbo.  You would know whether this description fits the actual car you bought.

You didn't mention your wrenching ability, so I'll assume it's limited.  My suggestion is that you find a tuner shop near you (Google Subaru tuners) and contact them.  They can put it on a rack, do an inspection, and point out obvious problems.

The serious problem I have encountered is overheating, which you may avoid, since your engine has no turbo.  If you can't find a Subi tuning shop near you, reach out to local car clubs or Subi websites, such as www.nasioc.com.  Among those options, someone near you can give you a realistic appraisal of what you have, and what should be done.

This car may have been built in 2007, in which case the low mileage may be a warning of one or more problems.  However, there are lots of reasons why our replicas don't get used much, and mechanical problems are only one possibility.  

The main thing you need a Subi expert to check is coolant temperature.  Many of the car's features are so bullet-proof that even SAS couldn't ruin them.  If you would like to continue the discussion, feel free to PM me (or whatever private email is called on this site).  Best of luck and please keep the group informed about your journey.  That's how we all learn.

Jethro posted:

I took my SAS to an import dealer that sells both Porsche and Subaru... They turned their nose up at it and refused to service it.   I have purchased 2 Foresters there.   My next one will come from their competitor.

There are plenty of tuner shops, though.

Yes.  Find a good shop (not a dealer) that works on Subies, and they should be pleased to work on the car.  For my Porsche powered IM, I go to a racing shop about thirty miles away, and they love the car.  They work mainly on Porsches, too.

I'd never go to a Porsche dealer...

Neighbor is Service Manager at large Chevy dealership.  Asked if they would service a 12 year old Corvette.  He said dealerships won't work on any car over 10 years old.  I'm sure it comes down to mod's made over years, non-stock parts, corroded fasteners and brittle plastics - plus delay/difficulty in sourcing parts.  Dealerships use a pricing book to bill customers - book says x hrs to replace water pump and that is what customer is charged regardless of fact that it may have taken 1/2 that time.  Most of the time it benefits the "stealership".  SO forget servicing at traditional dealership - but I'd rather pay time and materials.

Ad doesn't say much.  You won't find another car like it - Subbie power, auto trans, low mileage.  Great price - at least double that to build today. You'll have a car that will turn heads - be prepared for that. I'd take a long, vigorous test drive.  Not sure that that leisurely mileage over ~10 years is enough to sort the car out and keep the seal and rubber healthy.  Look for signs of overheating, dash lights, and fluid leaks. If you are NOT a mechanical car guy (yet) have someone who is familiar with Subarus do a PPI - well worth $400.  Unless there are recent receipts - I would replace all rubber (tires too) and drain and refill all fluids. Get any build documents PO has as part of deal too - so you know year of engine and any internal mods made - without having to disassemble to find out.

Tom, if you mention where you live, some of us may be able to recommend ways to find good shops (they are everywhere, but not prominently known, usually).

I am a reasonably competent mechanic and do all of my own work and I would not hesitate for an instant to buy that car for that money.  Whatever problems you might find (and I wouldn't really expect many) should be solvable for short money above the cost (which is a steal) of the car.

Even if you're not mechanically inclined, I would still go for it and find a local shop to work with.  I'll bet a good Indie shop would be thrilled to work on that car, but I really doubt that a Subaru dealer would want to touch it (as seen above).

What a find!  Good luck with it and stay tuned to this site - we'll help you all we can.

tom231 posted:

Jethro-You mentioned you would go another route the second time around.  Is it due to quality, ie...if you could find a used one would you buy it?  What level of quality are Steve's car???  Vintage? IM? levels.

 

I'm the third owner.   My car was built in 2012 for John Eastman in Massachusetts. Due to age and difficulty of getting in and out of the car, he sold to John Kuhlow in Arkansas, who was already in the queue for an SAS.  The second John wanted an automatic transmission, but Eastman's car is stick shift.   So Kuhlow enjoyed the car for a couple of years, then he decided to sell so that when his SAS was done, it would be all exciting again.

The only thing I would have done differently, would be to eliminate the luggage rack and go with a widebody rather than traditional style.

I do not have, nor wopuld I want, a turbocharger. 175 HP is more than enough for these lightweight cars.

I have no issues with cooling.

I wish I had experience with other builders to compare quality, but I don't.   I can tell you that the car is solid.  The only thing I'm not extremely pleased with is throttle response...  It's a bit sluggish, which makes downshifting not as much fun as I'd like it to be.    That's something I may talk to a tunig shop about.  

Here is the full link. It has ended, but click the thumbnail and you'll see the full ad. 

http://m.ebay.com/itm/122245774262

Are the gauges straight across the dash how all Cabs are or is that just what SAS does? 

Troy - You have to admit that is the most understated ad ever!  PO could have gotten $10k more if he had decent detailed ad and more photos.

Yes Wolfgang it is pretty understated.   These days, it isn't hard to take high quality pictures and I'll never understand why so many sellers don't.   I usually interpret a lack of good pictures as a sign that there is something the seller doesn't want me to see. 

Given Kelly's overheating issues with an SAS built after this one, I'd be very wary of this car.   Especially with that very low mileage for the year it was built. 

Thanks again guys!  So if this car is, as stated, do you all think $25K is a good deal.

I know this seller bought for $25 from an estate sale.  The seller is in his 70's and seems to be a well respected business man in Phoenix.

Is there anyone out in the Phoenix area that could go by and take a look at the car for me.  I would fund the excursion and a great lunch!!!

Just need to decide if I am going to look like an A-hole and back out of the deal, which I have never done before, or take a car with problems

I guess the BIG QUESTION would be, DOES Steve produce a quality car, even though his business ethics seem to be very questionable. 

Troy Sloan posted:

Yes Wolfgang it is pretty understated.   These days, it isn't hard to take high quality pictures and I'll never understand why so many sellers don't.   I usually interpret a lack of good pictures as a sign that there is something the seller doesn't want me to see. 

Given Kelly's overheating issues with an SAS built after this one, I'd be very wary of this car.   Especially with that very low mileage for the year it was built. 

I agree, the pictures made the paint look faded and the lack of description was underwhelming, especially compared to the poetry that Troy writes 

Could still be a great buy but I'd get it inspected for sure. Normally that would be a pre-condition for a $25,000 purchase though.

TOM321,

None of us can truly evaluate the car from 4 photos online.  I think the only issue you'd need to be leery of is does the car overheat? Can you look around the engine and radiator area to look for evidence that the car has over heated? Take the car for a test drive, put some miles on it and see how she does. If the car overheats you're at risk of blown head gaskets down the road.

If I were spending 25k on a used car I'd have someone do a PPI (Pre Purchase Inspection) just for the peace of mind. Most of us here drive air cooled versions of the Speedster. There are a handful who have water pumpers. 

How mechanically inclined are you? Do you have the skills and temperament to fiddle and futz with the car if there are issues?  

25k could be a GREAT deal if you know what your getting into. 

Good luck. If you get it you have to promise to join the club here online. The water is always warm and the beer is always cold!

Ted

I still want to know if that is the normal dash for a Cab.?   I prefer the typical Speedster dash. 

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

It's a used car, Robert. He's actually buying something besides vaporware.

To answer the question: the guys who have owned one of Steve Lawing's cars are generally happy, in the same way that guys who hit the winning scratch ticket are happy-- they didn't expect to see any return on investment, but they're happy they did. I don't think the cars themselves are the issue-- it seems to be the lack of an actual car for the money spent that is.

That being said: Steve Lawing is (supposedly) trying to do something way out on the edge-- incorporate an entire Subaru drivetrain and wiring harness (ECUs, etc.) into a mid-engine package. I don't think he's trying all that hard, but that's just an outside observation (he's cranking out cars at a break-neck 1 car/yr pace, which would indicate he's doing this casually, as opposed to diligently). This thing he's doing is not an easy proposition.

Regardless, some owners have had issues with adequate cooling, etc. No matter what, you will most definitely be on your own with any issues with the car. However, that's generally the case with most handbuilt cars. Unless you live within driving distance of the Intermeccanica or Special Edition, you're going to need to learn to do things yourself, or find somebody to do them for you. The idea that you are going to take this car to a Subaru dealer and get work done is a fantasy that SAS/SAW guys have been living for years.

No matter what, a replica speedster is handbuilt. Proceed accordingly.

I missed that part completely Stan. Then again it was 0300 hours when I wrote that on my way out the door to go serve search warrants. My bad. 

Serving search warrants! Always a good time, but particularly between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. Be safe, Robert!

Troy-What it looks like to me is that the Speedster/Convert. D/B Roadster had the same dash, ie...arch over instruments.  The 356A cabs had the flat dash.  I am with you, I like the arched dash as well. 

UPDATE:  I mentioned "over-heating" to seller and now mentions that the car is having  "slight" overheating issue.  He is going to have it looked at/serviced.  I told seller I would like the name of shop so I can call and get a PPI, front to back and underneath.  Have not heard back from seller.  IF he bawks and says sold "AS IS" without mentioning the over-heating issue, I guess it would be time to walk.

Also, can this over heating problem be over-come or is it something inherent in how these things were put together.   thanks again!   Tom

Me again.  Seller sent me the original options list.  It looks like the build was for a Randy Aldridge.

Also, how does the mileage work on these cars, ie...I know they are used engines:

Were they rebuilt to factory specs.  Were the speedos "zero'd" out when new?  I guess I am saying it is probably difficult to really now the TRUE mileage on the Subie engines placed in these cars.

Tom:

tom231 posted:

Troy-What it looks like to me is that the Speedster/Convert. D/B Roadster had the same dash, ie...arch over instruments.  The 356A cabs had the flat dash.  I am with you, I like the arched dash as well. 

UPDATE:  I mentioned "over-heating" to seller and now mentions that the car is having  "slight" overheating issue.  He is going to have it looked at/serviced.  I told seller I would like the name of shop so I can call and get a PPI, front to back and underneath.  Have not heard back from seller.  IF he bawks and says sold "AS IS" without mentioning the over-heating issue, I guess it would be time to walk.

Also, can this over heating problem be over-come or is it something inherent in how these things were put together.   thanks again!   Tom

If it has known overheating problems I doubt it would be a simple fix.   I you do have it inspected,  be sure they drive it for an extended period of time.   A couple times around the block won't cut it. 

I would communicate directly with Jim Kelly about SAS overheating issues if I were you. 

Thanks Gordon and Troy, as well as the rest of you!!

I tried earlier to PM Jim but it mentioned something about needing another member.

Not sure it went through but will  try again!!

YOU GUYS/GALS are great!!

Fine line between running hot and overheating - Overheating can lead to warped heads and blown head gaskets.  Running hot can be air in lines, needing coolant, bottle of "Water Wetter" on to added electric fans and radiators.

Hi Tom,

I sent you a PM that you can now respond to.  I'll elaborate a little on Gordon's response above.  Lawing buys "late model, low mileage" Subarus to use as donors.  In my case, I contacted carfax to find out real mileage after getting the VIN number from SAS.  My donor car had 43K+ miles on it.  Not exactly used up, but not exactly low mileage either, in my view.  No telling how many miles on your donor car unless you can find the VIN for the donor.  If you do, you can contact carfax and they will supply mileage when the car was designated as salvage.  You may want to check that the odometer in the car is actually working, since mileage is so low.

SAS routinely sets the odometer at zero for his replicas.  In my case, the odometer showed 400 miles when I picked it up.  I have my doubts as to veracity, since I don't believe he put 400 miles on the car prior to delivery.

I doubt very much that any major overheating of SAS cars is caused by trapped air, since that problem is easily verified and fixed.  Overheating in my case is caused by poor design, not specifying a cooling system of sufficient capacity to shed engine heat of the turbo engine.

Your car has the Porsche dash, so, while the Subi dash may be tucked up under your dash, your odometer will/should reflect mileage on the SAS car, not the donor car.

If you do have a road test done, have the person put a load on the engine when ambient air temps are as high as possible.  That would mean a road test in AZ at peak daytime temps, say around 3 p.m.  You may also want to spring for a chemical test to check for head gaskets.  While no mechanical test for HG leakage/failure is 100% reliable, the chemical test is pretty good, as it checks for presence of hydrocarbons in coolant.   

Good advice!

Thanks Jim!!!  Great words of wisdom!!!

Strange to think the Subi dash is tucked up under there!!!

I have the sellers Arizona title.  He bought the car in April of 2009.

The title shows "Odometer Reading" as:   000200 A  (A which means actual).

In emailing Steve, it looks like the first two owners, ie...the first one had the car built for his wife and it ended up that she could not "comfortably" get in and out of the car.  So it was not driven much and then sold to a person in OH, but person had financial difficulties and sold to the AZ seller.  So, 200 miles between the first two owners, ie...pending their circumstance, could be viable and AZ owner bought mainly for display (Big Boy Toys) and some fun.  So 2500 on SAS odometer may be correct.

Need to find out about the original Subie engine!!!

Quote of the day from Stan Galat:

"No matter what, a replica speedster is handbuilt. Proceed accordingly."

priceless advise!

That seems like a hot steamin' deal to me.  The old saying that  "If something looks too good to be true, it probably isn't true " Is far from always gospel.  I occasionally get incredible deals to broker and these can be harder to sell than if they were at what could be considered a "normal" price.  I laugh when I hear that a price is "too low" but sometimes it's a bonafide great deal.  I just sold a $300,000 restaurant for $95,000 because the owner/seller contracted an auto immune disease and was unable to operate it another day.  I sold it in a week.   And It's doing great and will make $150,000 for the new owner the first 12 months he owns it.  This was a true fantastic deal.

Next---someone mentioned that he thought this was John Eastman's car"  Wasn't John's SAS a blue color?  I remember it had over riders too.

Anyway I'd quickly get a refundable binder on the car contingent on passing inspection then have it looked at as has been suggested here.  Plus try to speak with the previous owner(s). 

SAS cars are special and normally built very well from what I know.  This could be a great find.  Check it out well then if it seems good, pull the trigger!

Jethro-Did you mean you were the third owner of the car I am referencing?