SAS questions

Phil: I will try to answer your questions in the order you presented them and add some valuable advice.

 

1) The radiators are in the back, dual radiators cooled by electric fans, one runs continuously and the other kicks in by a thermostat.

2) Noise level is minimal, I can listen to the radio while cruising at 80mph. Sound proofing is great.

3) Suby drive trains are from wreaked donor cars, In most cases low milage (20K or less), mine had 5k when it was written off.

4)With the mid-engine design the car handles like a formula race car with no over or under steer. Depends on which engine, 2.0 Turbo, 2.5 FI or 6 cylinder performance will vary. I have a 2.5 FI with auto transmission and the 175hp it provides it perfect for my needs.

5) Finish and fit do not match IM but equal to most other builders.

6) I will be attending Carlisle this year but SAS does not, there should be other SAS cars besides mine.

 

Please don't be in a rush for SAS to build you a car. With only a 2 man crew, freezing weather and dependents on 3rd party suppliers, availability of donor cars, the waiting times are more than the most patient of people can bare. Even when someone buys into the waiting list, the wait is measured in years, not months.

Hi Phil,

 

My experience with SAS has been different than the previous poster.  First, the positives: I agree that performance and handling are as good as I've seen in these cars, bar none.  The concept of a modern Subi engine/drive train, built with a tube frame, modern suspension, and reliability, ticks all the boxes.  However, concept is not execution.  There are a myriad of problems that balance out the performance and handling.

 

1) SAS advertises low mileage engines, under 30K, from salvage Subi's.  I used carfax to find out that my engine had 43+K, not a deal breaker, but outside their advertising parameters.

 

2) My single radiator with dual fans is in the right rear wheel well.  My 2.5l turbo engine blew a HG on the drive back to California.  Air temp was mid-90's, engine rpm 3050, flat Texas freeway.  A well-setup vehicle should NOT overheat in those conditions.  HG has been replaced, and I have taken steps to reduce under-hood temps with turbo blanket, Swaintech coating on headers, up/down pipe, larger intercooler, etc.  Another owner contacted me privately that he suffered the same overheating with his turbo engine, resulting in an engine replacement.  This is a design problem that should be easy to fix.  I will fix my car so that it performs as well as any replica made.  The point is that I shouldn't have to fix anything, if the design and engineering was adequate.  These cars take so long to build that there is no excuse for faulty engineering.

 

3) Fit and finish are only average.  I had a Vintage many years ago, and the upholstery, carpet, headliner, etc. are comparable to Vintage, not nearly the quality produced by Beck or IM.  You would think that a company that only builds one or two cars/year would pay more attention to detail.  I received my car 18 months after it came back from paint, and there is a 2-inch run on the rear quarter panel that no one seemed to notice.  The car had never even been waxed, let alone clayed.  The paint job from Vintage was better than my SAS paint.

 

4) Interaction with the builder is the low point of the experience.  SAS currently advertises a build time of 18-24 months.  To my knowledge, SAS has built 20 Porsche replicas in the last 10 years.  They have never built one in 24 months.  The top three buyers in the queue paid their initial deposits in 2007 and 2008, and still don't have a car.  Last year, SAS built one car.  Wait time is 6-7 years minimum. 

 

Some owners are quite enthusiastic in their support of SAS.  I was also a supporter for many years.  I no longer am.  I always suggest that participants on this forum do lots of research and get advice from many sources.  If you are interested in SAS cars, join their forum.  Read about their experiences.  Make up your own mind.  Best of luck in whatever you decide.

Thanks for replies.  I lived through 2 Vintage Spyders.  Greg Leach builds a great care but customer service is not one of his strong points.  First car in 1999 took over a year to get.  Second car took over 2 years to get.  I'm too old to play that game again.

I had a good idea that there would be some cooling problems with radiator in the back.  I'm sure the turbo generates a lot more heat.  I'm more of a naturally aspirated guy.  170hp pushing 2000lbs would be an adequate power to weight ratio for me.  Used Suby engine worries me a bit.  My Suby Spyder when I got it in 2003 was blowing oil out of the crankcase.  Pistons out of round with blow by.  Had to get a new short block installed.  Engine was probably on a turbocharged buggy.  What a rip off.  Guy in CA who built it refused to pay or fix.  Not Greg Leach's fault.  I sourced engine.  I lived in FL at the time.  Didn't have energy to sue someone in CA.  While my IM is a bit slow and tail heavy I do like the fact that the engine is a VW jetta crate engine with 0 miles when installed. 

Only reason I would get the SAS is to drive the sh*t out of it and maybe track it.  Sounds like the cooling situation might put a damper on spirited driving.  And obviously the wait time is a non-starter.  I'm not waiting 2 years again.  7 years.  That's a joke.

  

      A used Suby, like any used engine, is always a lip biting, crossed fingers, purchase. But having said that, the stock Suby is a marvelously engineered, bullet proof, and reliable powerplant...the Japanese don't assemble them with Chinese components!

      These little dynamos (stock Ej22 SOHC pumps out 140+hp and nearly 145ft.lbs torque at 3200rpm) yet outweigh a Type1 by a mere 30lbs and fit within the dimensional parameters of the Type1. Interfaced with a Kennedy adapter they bolt right up to your existing tranny.

      I've been told that engines over a certain mileage in Japan are heavily taxed for environmental reasons...These are clipped out and exported to a reseller in eastern Canada who offers them with a guarantee. (Google: used Subaru engines) and amazingly are less expensive then an anemic aircooled rebuild with questionable components and ziltch guarantee.

     

      As for plumbing, piping, radiators etc. I'm going to pester Suby owners at Carlisle for fabrication information....There'll be several there with hands on experience and sound advice I'm sure....Larry Jowdy has interesting information on solving an overheating problem by replumbing a rear positioned radiator to the front of a spyder. 

Stroud did his with the rad in front and the engine in back, and is re-doing it. But he found his engine in the boneyard.

 

I'm building a similar setup now (fingers crossed) in my TD replica. Rad placement in that is pretty much a no-brainer. Whether it will work or not...we shall see.

 

 

BTW: everyone on every Suby board swears the 2.2 engine is the most durable and trouble-free. The 2.5 dohcs tend to blow head gaskets, the 2.5 sohcs a little less. The Normally-aspirated 2.2 engines don't tend to as much (Stroud's experience notwithstanding). The 2.2s built before 1996 are also non-interference, so you can break your timing belt without breaking the rest of the motor.

 

Only 135 horses though. Just about everyone on this board claims they have (or need) at least 50 more'n that. Color me skeptical.

I weighed a turbo SAS at Carlisle some years ago. 2380 pounds comes to mind, so light they are not. Not dissing, just stating a fact. I'd like to know if Hoss' Red Man is any lighter(naturally aspirated 2.2 SAS).

I am the owner of the first "Tubaru" built and am still a booster of the car and the builder.  After two years owning a Vintage, I think I made a positive step by selling and waiting for my car to be built.  I ordered it in January of 2004 and it was delivered in June of the same year.  Admittedly, there was no "queue" at that time and even with 850 miles of pre-delivery testing, there were still issues to work out.  And they have been, so I am a happy camper.  

 

1) SAS advertises low mileage engines, under 30K, from salvage Subi's.  I used carfax to find out that my engine had 43+K, not a deal breaker, but outside their advertising parameters.

 

My car was built using a 1998 Subaru Impreza with 22,000 miles on it.  In other words, it was just past being well broken in and performed like it.  

 

2) My single radiator with dual fans is in the right rear wheel well.  My 2.5l turbo engine blew a HG on the drive back to California.  Air temp was mid-90's, engine rpm 3050, flat Texas freeway.  A well-setup vehicle should NOT overheat in those conditions.  HG has been replaced, and I have taken steps to reduce under-hood temps with turbo blanket, Swaintech coating on headers, up/down pipe, larger intercooler, etc.  Another owner contacted me privately that he suffered the same overheating with his turbo engine, resulting in an engine replacement.  This is a design problem that should be easy to fix.  I will fix my car so that it performs as well as any replica made.  The point is that I shouldn't have to fix anything, if the design and engineering was adequate.  These cars take so long to build that there is no excuse for faulty engineering.

 

 It is well known in Subaru circles that some 2.5 L engines have experienced head gasket problems.  I chose the 2.2 L after doing research that seemed to indicate that this engine was pretty much bullet proof.  And it has been.

 

I have a single fan cooling a single radiator located in the right rear wheel well.  I did experience excessive coolant temperature at first, but with the cooling fan running high speed, full time, I was able to keep the engine cool at 75 mph across the Mohave Desert in 2005.  Subsequently, it was determined that the Subaru designed "H tube" was the culprit which was missing from the original design.  Once retrofitted, the car runs consistently a factory spec temperature with the computer selecting the on and off cycles.  Case closed.    

3) Fit and finish are only average.  I had a Vintage many years ago, and the upholstery, carpet, headliner, etc. are comparable to Vintage, not nearly the quality produced by Beck or IM.  You would think that a company that only builds one or two cars/year would pay more attention to detail.  I received my car 18 months after it came back from paint, and there is a 2-inch run on the rear quarter panel that no one seemed to notice.  The car had never even been waxed, let alone clayed.  The paint job from Vintage was better than my SAS paint.

 

I have been complimented on numerous occasions on the fit and finish quality of my car.  It has won several car show awards, including best in show and judges choice.  I owned a Vintage too, as previously mentioned, and there is no comparison, IMHO.  

 

 

4) Interaction with the builder is the low point of the experience.  SAS currently advertises a build time of 18-24 months.  To my knowledge, SAS has built 20 Porsche replicas in the last 10 years.  They have never built one in 24 months.  The top three buyers in the queue paid their initial deposits in 2007 and 2008, and still don't have a car.  Last year, SAS built one car.  Wait time is 6-7 years minimum. 

 

Forewarned is forearmed.  Small shops generate much interest, many orders and long wait times.  Am I glad I got on board when I did....SURE!

 

Some owners are quite enthusiastic in their support of SAS.  I was also a supporter for many years.  I no longer am.  I always suggest that participants on this forum do lots of research and get advice from many sources.  If you are interested in SAS cars, join their forum.  Read about their experiences.  Make up your own mind.  Best of luck in whatever you decide.

 

No argument here.  Decide what you want, what you are willing to spend and how long you are willing to wait.  

 

My 2 kroner

Hoss

Hoss...when you mention the H tube...are you referring to the bypass to and from the heater core?

 

 

 

Personally I think the SAS has so much potential. I spoke to Steve for over an hour today about his car. He is an enthusiastic charismatic guy and I believe he has good intentions. He seems to be preoccupied with R&D of his product neglecting the production side of things. His price point is so good for his product he fails to realize how much money he could make if he could just crank out the product. He needs to make a stand and decide what he will offer as standard equipment and options. Stop the engineering and just build. Does a 2200 lb car really need ABS?  He was telling me that he is developing a power steering system because some people want it.  Really? In a 2200 lb car?   It's a 356. There is supposed to be communication between the car and driver.  Tell the 2 people who want power steering to forget it.  It's a great product. Just build it.  If Steve is reading this I hope you are not offended. People like me would love to be able to purchase your car. It's a great car. We just want the car you are offering now and we want it now. We aren't willing to wait over 2, 3, 7 years to get it.  Start concentrating on production. I know it may not be as interesting as the R&D but more money and more happy customers will allow you to do bigger things in the future.  

I think SAS has shown a proof-of-concept that some other person or persons ought to "just get on with it" and build in larger numbers. I don't know Steve and mean no meanness to Hoss and other SAS people, but a 3+ year wait just seems excessive for a machine that a competent hot-rodder could build in a home garage in a year of weekends.

Ed, I'm under the impression that all SOHC's, no matter what year, are non-interference... i.e. the valves aren't smashing themselves up as they would in a DOHC timing belt failure. Also I'm told that modifying (simplifying) the ECU adds about 8hp to a stock Ej22... 140 reliable hp will suit me fine!  

Luc, privately communicating with any member via "Dialogs"

 

Upper right hand of this page click on the red box (Dialog)

new page: at right click on (Start new Dialog)

new page: on left side click on (add participants)

 

new page titled 'community members' with alphabetized avatar windows.

at bottom right of page are navigating buttons. keep clicking 'next' until the page with desired member appears...click on that avatar

at the bottom of that page click on the notation (continue with dialog creation)

 

Now you're back to the second page. You'll see that the member whose avatar you selected is now listed under your name as the 'participant

 

to the right type in a 'subject' and below that box is the message box for whatever you want to send.

Phil, IM is using the 2.5 Subies as there standard motor now because they are readily available for the same cost, but my 2.2 IM (the first factory Suby IM) scoots along just fine.  As a matter of fact it hauls ass from 30-100+MPH.  Lots of torque and it runs cool all of the time.  Up to 42mpg highway.  My heads are machined and I have a Delta Cam.  Forewarned, I needed to try a few combos with the cam and lifters before I ended up with this awesome combo.  200 Grind and solid roller rocker lifters.  Stock=no problems but what fun would that be, LOL

 

Would I like even more power? Sure, why not my chassis and tranny can handle it (but I am content for now) 

 

Drop a Turbo on your Audi 2.0 if you want more power. 

 

 

 

 

 

Giday, Carl. Not to preempt Ed here, but if you google   subaru ej22 engine, you'll find a pretty comprehensive coverage on the Wiki site. '97 and up 22's were what they called phase 2 engines, supposedly gaining ten more hp via considerable internal changes including being an interference engine. I'm prepping one now and with the timing belt off, you can gently turn the crank by hand on the bench and feel the interference, ie, the piston stopping upon touching a valve.

 

Luc,

That was just a test to see if you could follow semi-complicated directions.

Clicking the gingerbread man is just a convenient shortcut. 

WOW... just learned about the gingerbread man thing. Good to know. Now...would someone please take the time and show me how to access   " my previous posts ' ?

 

That would be handy to go back the next day to see if more input /output took place. I used to be able to do this but cannot now. Thanks....

David, on "H tube", yep, sounds right to me.  The bypass.  

Bingo...just what I figured, Hoss. I didn't understand that, or should I say the need for it, and that's what finally fried my engine. There are several exits to the Soob upper coolant manifold and I relied on a smallish one which led down to the thermostat not knowing that the size of an H tube is a critical requirement or the heater must be left on full time. Too much cabin heat became a problem so I shut off the coolant flow to it and then that smallish bypass with the hot coolant got overcome by the really cool fluid from the rad and their long tubes and failed to get the stat to do what it should. Engine now trying to push out very hot coolant and the stat saying back to it...." hey, relax...I'm good right now thanks". Me Culpa. Net result was coolant going out the exhaust. Second engine goes in shortly with a BMW inline stat on the hot side.

Marty

If I could afford a new IM I'd be driving an Outlaw Speedster with a 2.5 Suby.  Could barely afford a good used one.  Paid half what my car would cost new.  2 boys in med school and a daughter undergraduate premed.  My kids are killing me financially.  I'm proud of them but my daily driver is a 12 year old Isuzu.

Honestly I was just intrigued with the SAS and its price.  Honestly the weakest link of our cars is the vintage vw 4-speed transaxle.  I like the fact the SAS is all Subaru including the 5-speed transaxle and ECU.  Power brakes with ABS is also petty sweet.  I'm really not a traditionalist.  I want it to look the part (would never get the wide body) but all modern performance parts is fine with me.  Steve at SAS assured me he could deliver a speedster in 2 years.  Even if that is the case its still a non-starter.

You might want to consider a Beck.  Modern tube frame & you can improve the technology to the limit of your technology. I chose Beck based on the design, company reputation, and proximity to me.  A Beck hit the sweet spot for me with price, technology, & customer support.  I've spent far less than an IM & I've upgraded it a lot.

Steve at SAS assured me he could deliver a speedster in 2 years. 

 

As uninterested party,  I'll hold the funds for you.  PFCU has 3.03% return on 4 year CD.

I wish my IM had power brakes.

Phil:

 

Sounds like Steve might be able to deliver in two years, and probably intend to, but it doesn't seem like his record supports that kind of performance.

 

What bothers me about hearing that is there a number of others, it seems, waiting in line ahead of any order you would place. What about those folks? Would you be jumping ahead in line? What does that say about how that business is being conducted?

 

If that was all that was said, I'd be real nervous.

 

 

Simon Hambly has power brakes on his Chesil.  They should be pretty easy to do with a remote power booster,  I believe his hydrovac (booster) is mounted on the passenger side of the front bulkhead.

 

Every GMC school bus in the 1960's - 1990's had a remote brake booster.  They had a single-circuit master cylinder up under the dash attached to the pedal, with an hydraulic line running to the hydrovac under/just ahead of the passenger entry door.  That hydraulic line went to what was a slave cylinder as the "input signal" or actuator to the hydrovac.  There were 2 or 4 hydraulic brake lines running from the hydrovac (depending on the year  and country) going to the wheels and a vacuum hose going to the intake manifold.  

 

Use the same concept on a Speedster with just 2 brake lines and a limiting/residual valve for the rear drums and plumb the vacuum hose to a small vacuum reservoir and a small hose going to each intake manifold and you're done.  

 

Nice Saturday job......

Bob

Steve may tell everyone 2 years.  I don't think for one minute I would get the car in 2 years.  I feel for those who are waiting.  I was in agony waiting for my Vintage Suby Spyder and that was about 2 years.  Much better to be driving than waiting.