Reviewing threads on Tiger's Sidewinder Exhausts are all excellent. At some of the Cars and Coffee Saturdays, I looked at mostly the VS bugs whom had them mounted and really did not like how they cover the valve covers. So, I looked into the Sebring system and really like the sound. Has anyone tried them on our speedster arrangement? I came across a youtube for a Sebring mounted on an 356 Speedster and the owner had it made by Tiger- the sound was super sweet. My next step is to drive down to Tiger's shop and see what he comes up with my car. But very interested if anyone has done the Sebring Exhaust and does it add any torque to a 1600 CC. Thanks for any feedback.
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Michael- I'm of the understanding that you give up some power with a Sebring style exhaust. They're historically a neat design, but a 4 into 1 merged (regular or sidewinder) is better.
Not all Sidewinders cover the valve covers.
I have for all intent and purpose, is a traditional VW 2 pipe exhuast. The sidewinders sound nice , but they hang down so much lower than what I have. And I already scrape going into the driveway.
Michael-I had a Sebring from Tiger on my 550 Spyder. I think it sounded sweet on the said youtube video because it was a 4 cam motor! They are really, really loud. I liked mine, but I hardly think it is something most would enjoy!
I'd also check out the Sebring from Karmann Konnection (see the picture below of one on my 356 motor).
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Thank you ABL for the help- power loss for sound is not the direction I want to go. Currently running the Tri Mil sounds good and 1600 CC power is nice. I'll need to study the piping better. Looking at the info ARAJANI mentioned, sounds like Sebring are more effect with higher flow larger CC's or power of the Carreras. If I can get a sidewinder that will give me about 5 horse increase, sound close to the Tri Mil and no pipes covering the valve cover that would be interesting. Maybe the best thing to do is show Tiger my care and what I would like to see what he dreams up.
The Sebring is a 60 year old (or close to it) design and while it works ok (iIrc it's not great for low end /midrange torque, which weren't the 4 cam's strength anyway), we know much more about exhaust technology now. As I said earlier, a proper 4 into 1 header with the primary tubes arranged in the collector so each exhaust pulse helps "extract" all the gases from the combustion chamber into the tube next to it (hence the term "extractor" exhaust) is a superior design, makes more power throughout most of the rpm range and outperforms the Sebring whether it's a 1600 or 2 liter (or larger). All that's needed is for the tubes to be sized properly for the displacement and rpm range of the engine (which is true for both styles).
I know the sidewinder style with the muffler along side of the right valve cover is a bit of a pain in the @ss, but it's a small price to pay for the performance you get and the muffler being tucked out of the way. If you think of it, you only adjust valves once or maybe twice a year.
And, Tiger's A1 Sidewinders are not all the same. Some hang down much further than others. Taking the car to Tiger is your best plan. Asking Kirk what he orders is option #2.
I can't agree with Troy's comment enough. My A1 header hangs very low. I've all but squared off the bottom drivers side tube. Make sure you get the right one.
It was way too easy to drag my old merged header exhaust system, so I replaced it with a sidewinder system for better ground clearance. I bought the header from Tiger separately, and had Henry, at Intermeccanica, fabricate the rest of the system. Luckily, there was enough room to install the muffler between the engine and back apron.
My side wider is tucked up high and I can adjust valves without removing anything.
Vintage speed makes a Sebring style exhaust...
TRP posted:I can't agree with Troy's comment enough. My A1 header hangs very low.
I've all but squared off the bottom drivers side tube.
Make sure you get the right one.
If it will help, Bridgit Curb Ramps offers several styles of curb ramps that can be placed at the end of your driveway to help prevent scraping.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd...b+ramps&tbm=shop
Cliff
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I have ramps for my crazy driveway. It's the random potholes and other nonsense I drag it on.
ALB- you have some very interesting knowledge of flow and wondering if I should PM you to further pick your brain for better understanding of where you are coming from our keep it on this thread for other to reference?
Troy- that maybe what I will do just to get a better understanding of my options.
CRHemi- I read and went to the Vintage site and apparently they offer a quite version. But now not sure about the effects of flow of Sebring vs Sidewinder? BTW what size motor are you running with the Sebring?
I think I've told you almost everything I know already, Michael, but ask away! If I can help you I most certainly will. As to whether it's here or a pm, whatever you're more comfortable with.
Michael, I have a 2110 w/A1 sidewinder not Seabring...
ALB- thank you for your input. Basically, what I'm reading is exhaust must free flow unrestricted allowing the chamber to ready for new air/fuel mixture stroke. The best way is to remove the exhaust pipe, but that would be really noisy. So, the pipe size, length and muffler structure/baffling are very important. And each of these depends on the motor size for the chamber gas output must at best exit with least amount of head pressure (obstructions). Thanx again.
Michael B (aka bluespeedster SoCal) posted:ALB- thank you for your input. Basically, what I'm reading is exhaust must free flow unrestricted allowing the chamber to ready for new air/fuel mixture stroke. The best way is to remove the exhaust pipe, but that would be really noisy. So, the pipe size, length and muffler structure/baffling are very important. And each of these depends on the motor size for the chamber gas output must at best exit with least amount of head pressure (obstructions). Thanx again.
Engine size dictates how much air is being pumped through the exhaust. A small engine produces less volume than a large engine therefore you need a smaller exhaust on a smaller engine.
Exhaust is a compromise between large pipes for flow volume (HP) and small pipes for flow velocity (torque).
Scavenging is when you have exhaust pipes merged together such that as one exhaust pulse enters the merge it creates a vacuum pulse on the adjacent pipe that travels back up to another cylinder as the exhaust valve is open and helps to pull the exhaust gasses out of that cylinder. This suction clears out the gasses in the cylinder better than the gasses expanding out the exhaust port plus the piston pushing it out can do on their own. Less exhaust gas means more room for the next fuel/air charge, that's why a merged header gets better output from the engine than the stock non-merged pea-shooter muffler or the sebring-style. Higher exhaust velocity from a smaller pipe creates a stronger vacuum pulse than low velocity exhaust in a bigger pipe, hence why smaller pipes provide better torque. The compromise comes from the fact that a small pipe simply can't flow enough volume the engine needs at higher RPM's, restricting the HP.
When people swap to a big diameter exhaust and notice the loss of torque, they say the solution is to add more "backpressure" in the exhaust. The actual problem is their exhaust diameter is too big so they've lost the velocity needed for good low rpm scavenging and torque. Backpressure is just an unwanted side effect of the real solution to the issue.
Pipe length controls the RPM at which the exhaust most benefits the engine, long pipes for low rpm, short pipes for high rpm. The reason is exhaust pulses take time to travel down the pipe and it takes the same time for the vacuum pulse to travel back up the pipe. However, this time is only dependent on the length of pipe and the speed of sound which is why the maximum torque benefit (scavenging) only happens at a specific RPM (and weaker effects at multiples of that RPM due to resonance). If you have equal length pipes going into a merge, they will all hit at the same RPM so you will have a very strong but narrow torque peak there. Unequal length pipes will hit at different RPMs so the peak will be lower and spread out. Not necessarily a bad thing as wider but lower torque curve can be nicer to drive. Due to the design of these engines, choices in pipe length can be rather limited, so in most cases, it's packaging that dictates this, not desired performance.
Muffler design varies the way the end of the pipe "looks" to the exhaust pulses. It could look like a restriction, open air, or just more pipe. The first is bad, the other two are just more ways to set the total pipe length and thus tune the exhaust. Ever see a car with what look like a second set of mufflers halfway between the engine and muffler? Those are resonator boxes. It's just an empty box that makes the exhaust act like the pipe just ended at open air at that point, effectively tuning the length of the pipe to be much shorter than it physically is.
Thank you ABL and JUSTINH- you guys spurred me on to dig through YouTubes and find some interesting clips discussing basic theories. This will give me some background when I have Tiger look over my car and list some options.
A Graham Bell, Four-Stroke Performance Tuning
Chapter 9: The Exhaust System. Click the link, download the book, print the chapter. By far the best explanation and tables regarding the design of 4-stroke exhaust systems for maximum performance I've ever read.
I already mentioned this in a previous post, but on many speedsters there is enough room to mount the muffler sideways, between the engine and the back of the body.
Henry was able to fit a fairly large muffler in my pan based IM. Unfortunately, I didn't take any photos.
I bought just the sidewinder header and had Henry fabricate the piping.
^ Almost every exhaust I built for my car has been laid out like this.
So's my Berg Dual Quiet Pack set up.