I'm growing tired of the belt squeal on my VMC Speedster with a 2,332cc motor. So I was wondering if the serpentine belt and tensioner kit offered by Jbugs would fit my application? Does anyone have any experience with belt tensioner systems on 2,332cc motors with an alternator?
Jason
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Yep. Get a spare idler pulley with the kit. The bearing will fail. It’s just a matter of time.
I too have a new-ish VMC with a 2332 engine. A while back, a few times I heard what I thought might be belt squeal. It wasn’t classic belt squeal but I wasn’t sure what else it could be.
Long story short, the metal tang that from the forward facing end of my A1 muffler that holds it upright had broken. Apparently I scraped the exhaust on a driveway once too often. At start up with extra vibration, the two halves of the broken tang rubbed together making an awful sound.
I realize this probably isn’t your issue, but it is an easy thing to check.
@Stan Galat posted:Yep. Get a spare idler pulley with the kit. The bearing will fail. It’s just a matter of time.
Thanks, so if I interpret you correctly, there shouldn't be a fitment problem?
Jason
@Jon T posted:I too have a new-ish VMC with a 2332 engine. A while back, a few times I heard what I thought might be belt squeal. It wasn’t classic belt squeal but I wasn’t sure what else it could be.
Long story short, the metal tang that from the forward facing end of my A1 muffler that holds it upright had broken. Apparently I scraped the exhaust on a driveway once too often. At start up with extra vibration, the two halves of the broken tang rubbed together making an awful sound.
I realize this probably isn’t your issue, but it is an easy thing to check.
Thank you, no broken exhaust support brackets; it's definitely an alternator belt squeal.
Jason
I switched my Beck Speedster (1915cc) to a serpentine belt system and loved it. Quiet and easily adjustable. Looked kinda cook too.
@Lane Anderson posted:I switched my Beck Speedster (1915cc) to a serpentine belt system and loved it. Quiet and easily adjustable. Looked kinda cook too.
Thank you for that feedback.
So did you purchase your tensioner system from Jbugs? On their website they offer serpentine kits but show them for motors up to 1,600cc capacity. My concern is that the crank-to-alternator pulley spacing on my 2,332cc engine may be different from a 1,600cc.
Jason
As Stan said Get a spare idler pulley with the kit. The bearing will fail. It’s just a matter of time........ )The bearing is a poor design)
I would think you could match it up with a Timken brand bearing
Sorry, but I don't remember who I got it from. That was probably about 12 years ago and I no longer have the car. I think I remember getting it from a fellow who had an ad on the Samba, but there are a number of folks who make them. As for the spacing, I would think that the tensioner pully would handle any variations there.
@Stan Galat posted:Yep. Get a spare idler pulley with the kit. The bearing will fail. It’s just a matter of time.
^^^ that ^^^
@JasonC posted:My concern is that the crank-to-alternator pulley spacing on my 2,332cc engine may be different from a 1,600cc..
It’s not.
The centerline of the crank remains constant, no matter how big the stroke. Even if it was a dimension that changes (and to be super-clear, it doesn’t), you can get longer or shorter belts, and the idler is meant to take up slack. That idler spins really, really fast in relation to crank speed, which is why a spare is a good idea.
Also, if it’s just belt chirp that concerns you, take a shim or two out from between the alternator pulley halves.
@Stan Galat posted:It’s not.
The centerline of the crank remains constant, no matter how big the stroke. Even if it was a dimension that changes (and to be super-clear, it doesn’t), you can get longer or shorter belts, and the idler is meant to take up slack. That idler spins really, really fast in relation to crank speed, which is why a spare is a good idea.
Also, if it’s just belt chirp that concerns you, take a shim or two out from between the alternator pulley halves.
Thank you for your reply.
I thought the crankcase for a 2,332cc stroker motor would be taller and, hence, position the alternator stool further away from the crankshaft. So, I'm pleased to know that the centers remain the same as a non stroked motor.
Yes, the belt chirps briefly on startup and I've removed a shim to tighten the belt, which eliminated the noise temporarily. I've also applied CRC dressing/conditioner to the belt, which also eliminated the noise, but again, only temporarily. I would like to change belt manufacturers, but Continental is the only belt I can find.
I may just learn to live with the noise.
Jason
You may want to try a toothed belt, if you haven’t already.
I use a Gates 7355 toothed belt with my 7" crank pulley. Many have a 6 3/4" pulley and would need a shorter belt.
@Michael McKelvey posted:I use a Gates 7355 toothed belt with my 7" crank pulley. Many have a 6 3/4" pulley and would need a shorter belt.
^^^ This is important - power pulleys are even smaller - like 5 3/4" ^^^
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Hi, Jason.
It's get-a-smaller-hammer Mitch here.
I've long been a fan of simple fixes for simple problems. The automatic belt tensioner might make the squeal go away, but as reported, it brings with another new problem. Complication breeds complication.
Why not try adjusting the tension again by removing another shim? The shim thing was a cheap fix for a situation where you can't move either of the pulleys to adjust tension. But it has sorta worked for countless generations of VW drivers. And you don't wanna go too high tech on us, do you?
You may have noticed the squeal more on start up because the belt might be fitting a little looser with the onset of warmer weather. Maybe one more shim looser?
A lot of us have never had any belt squeal with the standard shim system. But then, a lot of us don't rev the hooch out of the motor on first startup, either (hint, hint). The belt warms up a minute or two after being awakened from a sound sleep — again, like a lot of us.
These are simple cars. Sometimes, keeping them simple is best.
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Some are against belt tensioners and say the belt should slip at high RPMs. With the tensioner, it won't slip and the fan spins at a higher speed and might come apart.
@Michael McKelvey posted:Some are against belt tensioners and say the belt should slip at high RPMs. With the tensioner, it won't slip and the fan spins at a higher speed and might come apart.
I'd even change the highlighted "some" to "most". Most of TheSamba folks are in the kind of blind hatred with serpentine setups that other people reserve for politicians of the other party over on FB.
I run one, but then there's never been a problem I haven't overengineered an answer for yet.
I'll never feel like waxing lyrical regarding the coquettish dance of the swing-axle, but I'm in 100% agreement with Mitch here. Simple is best in this circumstance.
@Stan Galat, which one do you use?
Do any tensioners work with standard V-belts?
@Sacto Mitch posted:.
Hi, Jason.
A lot of us have never had any belt squeal with the standard shim system. But then, a lot of us don't rev the hooch out of the motor on first startup, either (hint, hint).
Please know that I don't rev the bejesus out of my motor on start up. It's that initial "catch" when fuel and spark come together in an explosion that causes the chirp.
I think the belt material is contributing to the problems. But I can't find an alternative belt supplier; my belt size is a: 912mm X 11.3mm.
I've also taken out more shims, but that seems to cure the problem only temporarily. Also, I don't want to stress the alternator bearings by increasing tension. I've got about 1/2" deflection in the belt when cold and it's tighter than Dick's hat band when warm.
Jason
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I really have nothing against serpentine belt tensioners, or any other modern improvement that solves a problem.
I'd just advise to try checking a little to make sure there really is a problem first. (Besides, I'm basically lazy.)
And no, I don't think you should let the belt slip at high revs to save the fan. Here, the modern fix (welding the fan blades) makes more sense to me. My belt doesn't slip at any speed, and yes, my blades are welded. Of course, you've got to check belt tension regularly, along with a lot of other stuff on these cars.
Thing is, despite these being fundamentally simpler machines than modern cars, ironically, they already require quite a bit more maintenance time and attention than modern cars, so adding more gizmos is likely to just increase your workload, longterm.
Fr'instance:
I spent most of yesterday replacing the cover glass on one of my headlights after a stone from a passing gravel truck and I tried to occupy the same space at the same time.
The reason why this took a whole day maybe partly explains why these 'simple' cars take so much time to maintain.
As best I can tell, the headlight bucket and its associated 642 separate parts was probably one of those genius designs that allowed a tricky task to be performed with simple, cheaply made parts. You have to be able to adjust the position of a headlight inside a weatherproof housing from outside the housing, using tools as simple as a screwdriver. Everything is made from sheet metal, and wire parts. No castings or expensive materials. In its original German configuration it probably worked a treat — every spring, every lever, every slot, groove, and gasket perfectly formed to mesh smoothly.
What we have today is a cacophony of too cheaply made parts that look like the originals but don't fit or function like them. So it took me a day of polishing, filing, modifying, soldering, re-engineering and cursing to get the damned thing back together in a way that works somewhat like the original did.
Our cars are like this from one end to the other. For all their computers and engineering complexity, modern cars just work a lot more reliably because they are produced in quantities that require it. If headlights and other gear were as vulnerable and as cranky as this on a modern car, the cost of warranty repairs could sink a major auto maker.
So, back to my point, if we already have our hands full with 'routine' maintenance, why add to that burden if we don't have to. Any after market gizmo we add is sure to be made in minuscule quantities compared to parts for 'real' cars, at the lowest possible manufacturing cost, and without the QC that, say, Toyota would be requiring of any of its suppliers.
I'd try moving a shim before installing something new and wonderful.
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Sorry, Jason. I wrote the above reply before reading your last post.
I do use a toothed belt (I think it's a Gates belt, as mentioned by others). Your tension sounds right and you're right about avoiding overtensioning.
The thing is, if your belt is slipping when the tension is set correctly, I wonder if the auto tensioner would solve the problem or if there is another problem.
I think I would try a new belt first — one that hasn't sat on someone's shelf too long.
Also, is the belt dry? It's easy to get a few drops of oil on it when checking the dipstick or topping up.
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@Sacto Mitch posted:.
Sorry, Jason. I wrote the above reply before reading your last post.
I do use a toothed belt (I think it's a Gates belt, as mentioned by others). Your tension sounds right and you're right about avoiding overtensioning.
The thing is, if your belt is slipping when the tension is set correctly, I wonder if the auto tensioner would solve the problem or if there is another problem.
I think I would try a new belt first — one that hasn't sat on someone's shelf too long.
Also, is the belt dry? It's easy to get a few drops of oil on it when checking the dipstick or topping up.
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I've tried a new belt which cures the problem temporarily.
Jason
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If a new belt solves the problem 'temporarily', then maybe something is moving, possibly in the alternator stand. Or maybe the bearings in the alternator are worn?
New Bosch branded alternators aren't the same as back in the day. Mine has been humming along for almost 10 years without a problem, but I've heard of some premature failures.
Beyond that, I'm not a good source for this kind of troubleshooting suggestions, but it does sound to me like something might be wrong mechanically beyond simple belt tensioning.
And oh, BTW, have your fan blades been welded?
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@Sacto Mitch posted:.
If a new belt solves the problem 'temporarily', then maybe something is moving, possibly in the alternator stand. Or maybe the bearings in the alternator are worn?
New Bosch branded alternators aren't the same as back in the day. Mine has been humming along for almost 10 years without a problem, but I've heard of some premature failures.
Beyond that, I'm not a good source for this kind of troubleshooting suggestions, but it does sound to me like something might be wrong mechanically beyond simple belt tensioning.
And oh, BTW, have your fan blades been welded?
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No, I haven't welded my fan blades. Should I ???
I took delivery of this car in late December of last year and frankly I'm a bit miffed at all the problems I've encountered with it.
The alternator spins freely without any noise, so I don't think the bearings are shot. I think I'll just live with the problem for now.
I'm driving the Speedster from my home in Katy, Texas to Fountain Valley, California in September, fingers crossed it will make it without breaking down.
Jason
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Check the alternator pulley. The cheap Chinese ones are frequently warped.
@JasonC posted:No, I haven't welded my fan blades. Should I ???
....
Jason
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No. The fan you have is probably already welded. It's a very common (not quite universal) improvement made to hot-rod Type 1s. Don't worry about your fan exploding until you start revving the engine regularly over 6500.
Per the bad idler bearing problem:
That seems very unfortunate given the plethora of small idler wheels currently employed on modern multi-OHC engine timing belts. I would think something from a Honda VTech engine or similar would have been adapted.
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Jason, what Ed said.
I don't recall details about your car or its engine. If it's a recent build from VMS or Beck, or if the engine's from a known builder, like Pat Downs, the welding has already been done.
But if it's a crate motor from somewhere else or if you don't know the source, it's worth checking.
Original VW engines cruised at about 3000, and seldom saw over 4000. Modern 'high performance' Type 1 builds can spin to 6000 or more, and the original fan design wasn't made for that.
Also, as has been noted, there are many after market pulley sizes out there. With many combinations the fan is spinning a lot faster at any given engine rpm than with stock pulleys.
If you're planning a cross-country tour in a few months, think about working up to that in stages to see how the car takes to long-distance runs in Texas heat.
A steady 70 or 75 can stress the engine a lot more than local cruises, and the route you're planning will almost guarantee long stretches at 100 degrees or more in September.
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@Sacto Mitch posted:.
If you're planning a cross-country tour in a few months, think about working up to that in stages to see how the car takes to long-distance runs in Texas heat.A steady 70 or 75 can stress the engine a lot more than local cruises, and the route you're planning will almost guarantee long stretches at 100 degrees or more in September.
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Indeed, the Texas heat is quite severe this summer.
I've made several Texas-heat trips of ~120 miles each and closely monitored my oil temperature and at 70-75mph the temperature was around 200^0 F. In addition to the oil temperature gauge I've installed an oil pressure gauge, which I find is much easier to monitor than the feeble red dot on my multi-gauge cluster. For reasons I cannot fully explain, observing "good" oil pressure at elevated oil temperatures is comforting.
Notably, the faster I drive the hotter the oil becomes, so at some point I may be forced to slow down. However, I'm running 10W-30 Valvoline Classic/Racing oil, which is synthetic and will maintain its lubricity properties at temps way above 300^0 F. So I SHOULD be ok even at elevated oil temps. Perhaps I'm missing a temperature failure that's not oil related?
Jason
I would never assume a fan is welded/balanced unless I knew it was. I guess I'm a belt/suspenders guy, but there is no reason not to have one. The damage that an exploded fan can do is catastrophic enough that the 80 bucks (or whatever) that Pat charges is money that must be spent.
Regarding whether or not the belt slips with a standard system at higher RPMs - there have been guys who have measured the RPM of the alternator on higher RPM dyno pulls, and everybody (without a serpentine setup) starts to slip somewhere between 4000 and 5000 RPM. You may not hear it, but it's there.
There is an enormous amount of rotating weight and drag on the alternator/fan assembly (which consumes up to 20 hp), all running through a very small belt. The miracle is that the belt doesn't just ribbon itself on the first run up to 5000 RPM.
I'm still not sold on a serpentine setup, but I've got to run one with my dry-sump unless I want to pull the pulley off every time I change the belt (hint - I don't). If I had a wet-sump system, I'd buy a good German or American alternator pulley and a nice sleeved sand-seal crank-pulley and never look back.
@Stan Galat posted:I would never assume a fan is welded/balanced unless I knew it was.
Yes, I'm tracking with you.
So is there an inspection port or other means of determining whether or not the fan blades are welded?
Jason
You should be able to slip a mirror or phone behind the fan shroud and look at the veins of the fan. If you use your phone, post the picture here and we'll be able to tell you, most likely.
@JasonC posted:Notably, the faster I drive the hotter the oil becomes, so at some point I may be forced to slow down. However, I'm running 10W-30 Valvoline Classic/Racing oil, which is synthetic and will maintain its lubricity properties at temps way above 300^0 F. So I SHOULD be ok even at elevated oil temps. Perhaps I'm missing a temperature failure that's not oil related?
Jason
Welcome to the real madness. What you are finding indicates to me that you are actually using your car in a way that most of the rest of the participants on this site don't. Well done.
There's no way you'd be able to run in Texas without a remote oil cooler and fan, so I'm just going to assume you already have this bit of kit.
The airflow situation through the engine compartment of a Speedster is terrible at speed, which is why your heat starts climbing as your RPMs (and speed) increase. I don't know, but I suspect that if you weren't moving through space (creating a low pressure zone right where you need a higher pressure zone) your temperatures would probably stay in line as load and RPM increased.
You will find that popping the hood a couple of inches on the latch side will lower your oil temperatures at speed somewhat. How much is a function of everybody's individual situation. Knowing your oil temperature and pressure is critical to keeping the engine alive, but knowing the cylinder head temperature is probably almost as important. Almost nobody monitors CHT, but doing so is a great way to keep an engine alive.
The valve-seats in the heads will start to loosen up and drop before any other heat-related issue. You'll never spot and deal with this measuring oil temperature alone.
Welcome to the deep end of the pool.
@Stan Galat posted:You should be able to slip a mirror or phone behind the fan shroud and look at the veins of the fan. If you use your phone, post the picture here and we'll be able to tell you, most likely.
Thank you; I'll take a look today.
Jason
@Stan Galat posted:There's no way you'd be able to run in Texas without a remote oil cooler and fan, so I'm just going to assume you already have this bit of kit.
The valve-seats in the heads will start to loosen up and drop before any other heat-related issue. You'll never spot and deal with this measuring oil temperature alone.Welcome to the deep end of the pool.
Indeed, I have an oil cooler and a thermostatically controlled fan.
There has to be some correlation between oil temperature and cylinder head temperature, but I understand your statement about valve seats dropping at elevated temps.
Jason
The blades should penetrate the flange whether welded or not.
