Shape and Ride Height of kits vs. Original 550's

I've noticed that almost all the kits out there use a rear end design which rides significantly higher than the original 550's. Also, the rear fenders/wheelwells on kits seem to be much taller than the originals... (except the fletcher carerra panamericana racer, perhaps!) The area behind the rear wheel to the brake lights seems to be much more square-ish on kit bodies, too. The original 550's were all swoopy, including a lovely arc from the rear wheelwell up to the taillights.

What this means is that I can pretty much look at a 550 and tell you in about 10 seconds if it's a kit or not. Being a stickler for authenticity, is there anyone out there fabbing up rear bodies for 550 kits that have the *correct* proportions? Or s there a kit that copies *exactly* the original 550 lines?

I'm including a pic below to illustrate these differences. Check it out. Comments? Questions? Recipes?

-Duane.

I don't know of manufacturer that exactly copied the original design, I would imagine that if they did, Porsche would be all over them like flys on doggie poop.

The original 550 had 16inch wheels so maybe they fabricated the rear to accomodate the taller tire????? All of the replica's have 15" wheels and don't need the extra clearance.

Personally, I think the newer wheel well cutout is much better looking that the original. But, what do I know?????

First of all, please don't refer to a Vintage reproduction as a kit. Vintage Spyders are built in a factory fully assembled by the manufacturer as "turn key cars". In addition, most 550 Spyder replicas now a days are not kit cars, they are ordered and fully built by a manufacturer such as Beck, Thunder Ranch & Vintage. (Just as the Original 550 was built by Porsche.)

Not quite a factory, but all of the repo's can be ordered as a kit.

Ok, Guido, I agree with you, our cars are not kits they drive like actual cars, so the word kit does not apply to them a kit is like a conversion and our cars are built from scratch they are not conversions, about the rear fender height, well I have a Maisto model of the 550 spyder and the rear fender is lower than my car I belive that the people that reproducer the spyder body, change it a little bit so Porsche does not sue them for a pattented car, well that what I imagine, I have seen Lamborghini Diablo replicas and they have variations from the original so I think that is the reason why is different, however we can trust that our cars are a very close replicas from the original.....

Beck makes a replica of the early 1st generation 550, while Vintage makes the 2nd gereration 550. None of the replicas today are exact. Both companys manufacture a more square style body (front and rear). Beck changed his body style after the manufacture of one or two prototypes. I know the leading edge of the front fender is lower and rounder on the origninals. Our copies are longer and not rounded. I have Beck #62 and is is squarish already. Remember that all spyders are basically a copy of Chuck Becks first few cars. Just like all Speedsters are copies of the original Intermeccanica Speedsters.

I will be fabricating a new tail section in the fall of 2004. I will send some jpgs once everthing is sorted out.

I still don't understand the issue with the term "kit car". Guido, the only difference between a kit version and the turnkey version is the person who puts it together...the same (or better) components can be used. The "kit car" assembler can be better qualified and do better workmanship than the turn key assembler. Take a look at some of those "kit cars" out there....(not mine though. Ha!)

Anyway, this is not the first discussion on this topic and not the last - I am still trying to understand the viewpoint.

Mike

I don't get it...I thought the purpose of these cars was to have fun, not to own the "best" brand or own the most "authentic" looking car.

I'm a sports car guy located in NASCAR country and I have to say when I go to rod runs and cruise-ins I don't see people pissing and moaning about "authenticity" and whose brand of repro-rod is the best. They are genuinly interested in the cars and could care less if a repro-rod's fender is a half inch wider than the original deuce coupe. As long as you don't claim your fiberglas rod to be an original bucket T everything's cool...

In the few weeks I've been on this forum I have met some kind and helpful people. At the same time I see an awful lot of crap about one brand of Spyder being better than all the others. The fact that you bought a certain brand doesn't automatically make it better.

I've watched these kits develop for more than ten years and each version has strengths and weaknesses. In the end, when you line up cars from Beck, Thunder Ranch and Vintage, look at each car's strengths and weaknesses, and average it all oout, there isn't a gnat's ass difference between the three makes.

What DOES seem to make them better or worse is the owner and how the modify and/or care for their cars.

As for "authenticity," the bottom line on any Spyder made after the last of the 90 some odd built by Porsche is that they aren't in any way, shape or form authentic. That being said, anyone seeking "authenticity" should shell out the $300-500K necessary to own an original.

Well now, back to the question.

I would think that the reason the originals sit lower is the size and diameter of the tires. Frankly I don't know of anyone who would really want the original size tires on their car. They were VERY thin and just crappy tires. Given the choice I think most of us would like the widest tire possible, without looking ridiculous and this tire just won't fit within the wheel well.

Duane,

I have to agree with Larry. I don't think it is the ride height, rather the wheel size that you're noticing. The difference between the original 16" and our 15" wheels is huge. Check out this car with 16's. www.pbase.com/image/4162590

Looks pretty real to me, but it's just a "phony" Beck.

Luis, I agree with you 100%. Our cars are produced and fully assembled by their manufacturers. I saw pictures of your 550 Spyder and I think it is absolutely gorgeous with the 2 rear head rest plates and the dual exhaust, a very unique car. Here are a few pictures of my car.

1. Photo of my 1997 C2S
2. Photo of my recently ordered 2006 Porsche 911 Carrera (997)
3. Photo of my 550 Spyder

Truly astounding...

Thanks Terry. Anyone else like my pictures?

Great pictures, you have a good taste about cars.....

getting back to the ride height.....on the original spyders the rear was a bitch to set so it was most often left alone..[unless a factory car that would have different settings for a specific track] but with the 16" tires and different body shape it's hard to tell just where it is....however on the front, spyders had an easy to access torsion bar adjustment that allowed ride height change [like +- 3"] to accomodate a full 20 gal. tank for distance racing to a few gallons for a sprint...so the look of a period photo could depend a lot on suspension settings and the amount of fuel on board at the time....

I checked my car and it seems that I can

Guido, let some air out or you'll pop ;)

1. Picture of my Dog "Bailey"
2. Picture of the front of my Spyder

(these photos were taken from my camera phone.)

I know I'm late to this topic but terry you made a great point with the hot rodders

Hello again, Spyder Folks!

First off, thanks to all of you who posted a response on the ride height and body shape discussion. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by using the term "kit"... I really should have said "reproduction", as I intended to encompass the modern repro spyders, be they kit or turn-key total-build cars.

I think that the 16-inch wheel/tire combo does, indeed make a difference. I'd like to thank Joe Martin for his pic link demonstrating 16's on a modern repro... the ride is *definitely* lower, and to my eye, better-looking. I wonder if the axels on that one had to be shortened over the stock ones used with 15" wheels/tires? Or do they simply fit in the existing wheelwells?

Likewise, I think you folks may be corect in your discussion of why the "sheetmetal" (i.e.fiberglass) looks different on the repros than the originals. It definitely is fairly squarish in most replicas, as opposed to the lower, rounder shape of the originals. Likey, it's due to the manufacturers trying to fit closely-copied bodywork over a somewhat different chassis than the orig. 550's, and also mounting the much wider 15" wheels.

And I also believe that the lawsuit angle is definitely a BIG point as well. I remember when a repro ferrari 250 California manufacturer was sued by Ferrari for making their replicas look *too authentic*. I think a lot of it has to do with the vehicle you're trying to replicate... some manufacturers are more stringent in defending their look and emblems, etc. Porsche, hewever, *seems* to be less fanatical in this regard... just my opinion.

The reason for my post was more out of curiosity, and because, to my eye, the original lines of the 550 are simply prettier to look at. Nothing bad about the existing replicas, mind you, but I just prefer the original lines. They seem more compact, smooth, better-flowing to me. That's all. It's more an aesthetic thing for me than some sort of anal attention to detail. That being said, I wonder if any of the big replica manufacturers (like Beck, Vintage, etc.) have toyed with more original-looking body panels/shapes... anyone know?

Thanks again for all the response and discussion. Sorry it took so long for me to get back on here and respond, but I think the questions raised here were well worth the asking, and you fine folks on the forum are obviously the right folks to ask.

Take care!

-Duane.

Hi Duane,

you asked: That being said, I wonder if any of the big replica manufacturers (like Beck, Vintage, etc.) have toyed with more original-looking body panels/shapes... anyone know?

Just look at the websiteof Prestige Classics

www.prestige-classics.com/

IMO they have really copied the original in all aspects. If it wasn

Thanks for the compliments Axel. An aluminum body is now an option on the Prestige Spyder. Give me a call or email me for details.

Chuck Eiler
Prestige Classics, Inc.
prestige-classics.com

WOW! MUCH better bodywork... and the level of detail is incredible. Slap some 16" wheels on that puppy, and she'll be hard to tell from an original. You'd have to get under the dash in the footwells to really tell. VERY nice work, Chuck.. congrats to you and your team.

That being said, it's a bit pricey for my wallet. And the aluminum body option (call for price? Yeowch...) will likely put it well and truly out of the range of affordability. (For me, anyway.) But I guess you pay for that level of detail. I suppose it's still better than $500,000, eh? I wonder if you could take it vintage racing...

Oh, well, at least I know they're out there, now. Thanks for the heads-up, Axel. I wonder, though, what engine/tranny options are available from Prestige?

-Duane.

If your wallet is as thick as Bill Gates', then any engine and trans is available, I would think. The original roller bearing crank engine (Type 547?) is impractical for a street driven car since you need to rev it so much. It was made to be a race engine and operate at a race track and not in stop and go traffic.

I wonder how close you can get to that kind of performance output with a VW-based block/trans combo? I would imagine that, since the original spyder 4-cam was developed from VW parts-bin equipment, that it could be pretty closely replicated, performance-wise, at the very least...

I believe Vintage and Beck, for instance, get WAY more than the original 130+ HP of the 50's spyders...

Duane,

the four-cam motor was a design of Ernst Fuhrmann, technical director of Porsche and had nothing to do with the VW engine.
No parts from this engine came or derived from VW.

Ah.... I did not know that. Thanks for the correction. I hate it when I look like an idiot. (grin)

I'm thinking of the early 356 engines, I'm sure. But the power-to-weight question is still valid, right? Original 550-type HP vs. New Replicas?

I hate to be a know-it-all, but even the 356 engines share only the boxer aircooled principle with the VW engines. Different block, heads, no interchangeble parts. Sorry!
But you are right as far as the the power-to-weight ratio is concerned.
Four-cam Spyder engines (Typ 547)started with 110hp and went to 130hp in the later version (550A). The engine was further developed and was in use up to 1965 in the 356 Carrera 2 and 2000 GS models. (1966cc, 155 DIN hp = 170 SAE hp, engine Typ 587/2)

Axel,

From what I've read, the 50 aluminum bodied space frame 356's that were produced prior to 1949 had a hopped up VW engine. This information seems to be documented in just about every book written about Porsche cars. From what I can tell, other shared components on these early 356's include front and rear suspension pieces such as king pins, trailing arms and torsion bars.

Here's another question: How much does the ride height shift, on average, when someone sits in this car? I mean, at this light a weight, the difference has to be pretty significant, right? Would that make such a huge difference? Or is the average suspension set-up in a Replica spyder stiff enough that it doesn't really matter much?

Duane: On my Beck, when my son (90 kg) rides with me the car noticably drops. Its a qualitative, not a quantatative thing but I do notice that the right front tire scrapes slightly as we go up/down the curb in front of my house. This doesn't happen when I'm by myself.

Larry Jowdy


Larry,

the basis for the first 356 Typ (engine type 369) was indeed the VW Boxer that Prof. Porsche constructed between 1939 and 1940.
This engine was used in the pre 356 serial #1 a mid-engine design like the Spyder.
The first 356/2 001 used the Typ 369 engine but had already different heads, valves etc. and 2 carburetors and the engine had moved to the rear of the car.

Larry,

you are absolutely right about suspension gearbox and other parts came directly from VW.