SHOP TOUR OF OUTFRONT MOTOR SPORTS INC.

I thought of doing a 6cyl Subi in my speedster but in a spyder that would be a challenge to keep on the road I would think,  unless you want to do IRS, flared fenders and add rubber to keep it on the road. 

Bruce,

That sounds exciting,  you've got my interest.  I can not tell you how many times i've under bought on hp and torque  and regretted it every time.  Current rides included.

Good luck on the new build..Aircooled..er Water cooled..Bruce! 

Outstanding! Looking forward to this saga unfolding. Good for you!

Bruce

I've got a high performance EJ25 Outfront subaru in my Vintage Motorcar spyder.  Advertised as 230 hp but I think its more like 200 hp.  I've got a LSD in my Rhino 4-speed and even with 2 tires on the ground its tough to get hooked up sometimes.  More power is usually a good thing but balance is also important.  My car is stupid fast and I think is also very well balanced.  An extra 75 lbs in a 1400 lb car does change the balance a bit.  My timing belt covers are about an inch from the firewall.  A 6 is going to be a tight fit.  But hey I'd like to see it.  Porsche 6's have been squeezed into these cars.  Why not a suby 6.  Go for it.  Sounds awesome. 

FWIW, everybody knows the air cooled flat-4 is an evolutionary dead-end. That’s why some of us like it. 

Subys are very good engines and, as you say, worlds better and more reliable than a Type 1 (if left semi-stock and treated well). Well worth swapping in, in most cases. 

I'm gonna ditto Ray here on the power output. If what you want is a Porsche 550 Spyder-like vehicle, then keep it light, and don't over-power it. With 250 hp, you may get a car that's quick and fun, or you may not—but you won't have anything that drives like a 550.

Imho, to make over 200 hp do anyone any good in a Spyder, you need to go to a highrail frame (Greg's is mostly there already) and IRS.

Without IRS, big meats on the back won't work, because when you get on it, the swing axle squats and the tires tilt in like /---\ and you're just burning the inside edges off those 225/50/15s, with less rubber on the pavement than if you were running round-shouldered Vred 165/80s. 

IRS means you'd have a 550A. That'd be the bee's knees.

My vote is to do it with a Suby transaxle. It's set up with the right kind of CV joints and you don't have to reverse the R&P. 

The only trouble is engineering. (i.e. money). 

Man, look at all them control arms & whatnot!

Yeah, you could do it, but it might (probably will) kill you. Anything more than 200hp in a swing axle rear and beam suspension front is a fool's errand.

However, if Greg offered ALL of this:

IRS front w/coilovers , adjustable sway bar, R & P steering, and wider wheel wells for SERIOUS RUBBER.

IRS rear w/coilovers, a small sway bar, 5 speed w/LSD, wider wheels and REAL TIRES.

Then I'd sign up and slam a Tribeca 6 cylinder in there. Does the 6 need a bigger radiator?

Think about the chassis Carey is offering in his 356C coupe, that would be the ticket.

That car would be real squirley as well but much more manageable.  

Thanks for all the input guys !  I have seen a Subaru transmission in a VW with IRS. It may have been the Mendeola guys that did it. I don't know for sure. Anyone here know ?   It may be that tires and suspension will be the limiter in this build. 230 H.P. would be a happy place for me considering the vehicle weight and suspension/tires.

Art  and Phil.....Outfront does offer a 230 H.P. non turbo engine.  I believe that's what you bought Phil ? I have heard that it's more like an honest 200H.P.  John told me about a "stroker" version  to bring  the engine up to a true 2.6 Ltr and put out a little more H.P. and a lot more torque. This has a $2500.00 additional price tag though.

A VW bus transaxle may be a viable alternative to a Rancho with A Rhino case, LSD and all the trimmings.  I had a Rhino/LSD in Rhonda and loved it !  It was an old ZF I had.

Phil....What gear ratios do you have in your Rhino/LSD Trans ? R&P ? 1-2-3-4 ?

James.....Yup !  No more "Aircooled Bruce" !!    Maybe....... "Aircooled Water Bruce' ?

We’ll call you “The Artist Formerly Known as Aircooled Bruce”. 

Technically, Bruce can still be cooled by air even if his engine won't be.

I'd like to keep Air-cooled only because of my corny avatar......Bruce

Bruce.  3.88 R&P.  Can't find ratios.  I use recommended gearing by Vintage for high performance engines.  I thought the car would be geared too low but it is not.  Still not set up to cruising at 70 mph.  I'm pushing 4000 rpm at 70mph.  I don't care.  I rarely take it on the highway.  Its back roads for me.  And it rips.  If I ever do a Pre A coupe I'll get higher ratios.  And I'll keep the Pre A Coupe in town.

The 3:44 would have given you a cruising gear around 3k but over 3k your really in the powerband continually and I would think the gear spacing is pretty nice for back road driving ... enjoy it.

I know you take pictures for a living but take a few of that car on the back roads for us to join in with you  

I'll see if I can get some action shots the next time I'm in Charlottesville, Aug 18.

Right now I'm thinking 3.44 for R&P  and 1 to 1 in 4th....the rest....don't know yet

In Rhonda I had to use q 4.12 R&P to be able to use the ZF Limited slip I had so I went to .82 to 1 for 4th. to get a good cruise top gear. 3rd was a  high for mountains and streets when below 2K RPM.   The 4.12 was a really nice out of the hole at the drags and I was into 4th just at the 1/8th mile lights...............Bruce

The torque band is very strong in the subie and pulls well in the lower rpm's so it will be more forgiving so to speak as to what gear your in.

I wonder how well it would do if you mimicked a 356 box with the long 2nd gear.  Just saying, somebody who knows what a typical tranny had in it could chime in. 

Gear spacing on a Bug box is a little wider than the original Spyders had. With a Subaru's stout and very flat torque curve it works very well with a 3.44. 4th either a .89 or (as I have in both my cars) .93.

Set up this way, first gear is low enough to hold hills and launch you respectably, and you can actually stay in first for more than 45 feet. Top of second is 60 mph+ (at 6k). Top of 3rd=100. 

Here is my comparison with the typical gearing in the original Spyder:

Gear ratios: (final)

Original                             My build (Tires: 165/80r 15)

1st: 3.18     (14.1/1)          3.80 (13.1/1)

2nd 1.94     (8.6/1)            2.06 (7.1/1)

3rd  1.23    (5.4/1)             1.26 (4.3/1)

4th  0.96    (4.25/1)           0.93 (3.2/1)

R&P: 4.43                           3.44

Top speed in

1st: 40 mph                       35

2nd 66                                63

3rd 105                              105

4th 137 @7400                 143 @6000

"Cool Bruce"

Ed that is great data  

Thanks. Cold weather boredom figures.

Key thing for me is the engine(s): Both Bridget's Suby and my Raby 1914 give peak torque around 4000 RPM and peak HP around 5500, with a reasonable rev limit (in Bridget's case actually a hard, built-into-the-CPU limit) of 6000. Per Raby's dyno sheets, this 1914 engine loses about 1-2 percent @ 6k. 

It just so happens that stock late Bug ratios, plus a 3.44 R&P, plus tall-skinny tires, give 6k rpm top speeds that are very similar to the original Spyder's 7500 rpm top speeds. Lucky me, I say!

Better yet: the Type 1 Raby engine puts about 35 percent more torque down than the first gen 4-cam: about 125 ft-lbs as opposed to the originals' 90-95.

That means my small-engine replica's 0-60 times will be about a second faster than the James Dean-era Spyder: something like 5.5 or 6 seconds* as against the 7 seconds the original car could muster. Given the long linkages in these cars, any time you can hit 60 with only one shift (instead of two) you should consider it, I think. The off-the-line quickness you give up with the taller gears is more than made up for by the shift time—unless you're setting the car up for the quarter mile.

With that in mind, if your engine's torque peak is 5500 and HP peak is 7k, the 3.88 R&P might be your better choice.

=

*I know, I know: That's some "Mommy's Accord V6" kinda slow in these modern times. It's also right in 440 Plymouth GTX/455 Buick GS/Caterham Super 7 territory though, so not so shabby for a glorified dune buggie, and very much in line with what the chassis was meant to handle. 

Thanks for your data ED......Good stuff !  I do drag race and autocross so maybe the 3.88 R&P would be better. Have to play with what the final drive ratios are and the spread between them...........Bruce

My car pulls HARD all the way to 7000 rpms (and maybe beyond but I'm trying to be nice to it for a few thousand miles).  The car just begs for the gas.  Its happiest when its spooling up fast.  Its really exhilarating.  I'll try to get the ratios from Greg.  I think when you've got a 4 speed you have to give a little on something.  You either want to drive leisurely on the highway or you want to rip the twisties.  Not sure you can have both.  I'll take the latter. 

Ed, great data. I have exactly that except the slightly taller .89 fourth. And 147 ft.lbs. of torque at 3500, very flat and slightly degrading to 140 ft.lbs. at 6500. This is why I can push the taller gear.

But, instead of 25.4" diameter 165/80 tires, my 205/60R15 rears are 24.7". So about 72 mph at 3000. My top speed calculates as 144 at 6000 rpm, theoretically.

In all actuality, you won't be spending much if any time above 100. Front end gets VERY light on a Spyder @ 110 or higher.

Bruce, if you do autocross as well, plan to have another set of tires with shorter sidewalls. That's all you can get today, 205/50 or 195/55.

Instant lower gearing, no trans change!

Phil,  you take your car to 7k RPMs? Wow you are a speed demon .  I don't think I have had the 2.5 Turbo over 5.5K 

Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

Phil,  you take your car to 7k RPMs? Wow you are a speed demon .  I don't think I have had the 2.5 Turbo over 5.5K 

Umm, you have a turbo, you don't need to.......

Marty.  I think my car is geared much lower than yours.  My car is so light and my engine revs so fast I'm at 7000 rpms in the blink of an eye.  My heads and cams are set up for high rpm and for high hp (not as much hp as yours).  Your car is more of a torque monster.  

Marty has a 915 5-speed with 911 gearing.

Just a note- the "original" ratios Ed quoted are VW's gearing for the 36hp 1950's Beetle. These transaxles are easily recognizable by their 2 piece split case. With the introduction of the 40hp engine in 1960 or '61 VW also went to the tunnel transaxle case so many of us are more familiar with now. 1st through 4th gearing for the 40hp 1200's and 50hp 1300 is 3.80- 2.06- 1.31- .89 with a 4.375 r&p. In 1967 VW changed things up a little bit for the 1500 engine, going to a slightly longer 3rd (1.26, which had the benefit of shortening the 3-4 shift and less opportunity for overheating on the highway) and the 4.125 r&p for slightly higher speeds all through the gears. About 1972? the Beetle and Karmann Ghia both got the even taller 3.88 r&p, the slippier Ghia keeping the .89 4th gear while the bug (with it's poorer aerodynamics) got the .93 for slightly slower highway speeds.

So Ed's gearing is essentially late Beetle with the 3.44 r&p- in his Spyder it'll be a blast! Even acceleration off the line will be pretty good with the light car and the engine's power level.

For comparison, in 1954 Porsche (in their service manual) listed 1st- 4th gear ratios (519 trans) as 3.182 (A), 1.765 (B), 1.130 (B), 0.815 (C) with either 4.375 or 4.442 r&p). A transaxle taken out of a 1956 Speedster was marked B (3.09- a touch longer, but not a lot of difference from the A 3.182) B B C (no idea which r&p). A Wilhoit restored stone grey Speedster with their 2002cc stroker (and you guys think big VW aircooled engines are expensive!) was equipped with B B B D(.851) gears and another Wilhoit restored Speedster (black, no side trim, Carrera bumper trim, 1720? cc dual plugged engine) had C(2.54) B(1.76) A(1.23) A(.96) gears. I'm guessing that, being lighter than either coupe or cabriolet, most speedsters got the longer (4.375) r&p from the factory. Porsche would also build a car with any gears specified and a number of cars were equipped with gears specifically for different types of racing, so what was "factory" is sometimes hard to determine. 

I'll leave it to those who can wade through all that without their head exploding (careful Gordon!) to figure out the Porsche final drive numbers...

Yoda out (but back you know I will be!)