Hi Everyone
Im wondering which size engine I should get and appreciate any of your thoughts! I live in Northern California, drive through hilly areas, and would drive this speedster 100+ miles almost every week.
Would love your feedback on performance, maintenance, sound, overheating, etc.
thanks!
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Going above 1915 cc requires a more costly stroker crank (1600-1915 cc use a stock 69 mm crank). To get above 2054 (a 74 mm crank) will require a 78 mm crank. Along with stroker crank, you will need case clearancing (machining) for the crank, shorter skirt pistons and different connecting rods.
A 2110 cc engine is popular for longevity/cool running but it takes an 82 mm crank and only 90.5 mm pistons vs the 94 mm used in the 1915 cc.
Most 1915 cc engines are bored to 94 mm P&C - but little else is done to the engine so performance is not that great. Guess you'd call it a large displacement budget engine. You could add a counterweighted crank, performance cam and decent head to wake it up. Then options like a full flow filter and oil cooler also increase cost.
Ran a 1915 for years with stoke German 69mm crank works great to 5500rpm. Use twin Weber 40idf carbs even with mild cam like Engle W100, 110, and she will go! This is my 1835
Seems to me that displacement is just one part of the puzzle. I'd start with choosing a builder like Pat Downs or Raby. Then take their advice based on the style of driving you will do, the terrain you cover and the environment you are in.
If you decide to go big, don't forget to do what is necessary to make it stop and handle the HP and torque. It isn't much fun if the car can only go fast safely in a straight line and then won't go WHOA in a hurry.
There are considerable performance and reliability results from builder to builder with what may spec out to be the same engine.
I have a 2110 stroker with a mild cam, Dellorto 40's, front discs, camber compensator, anti-sway bar, but not IRS. I'm not trying to set the world on fire, but my car runs pretty strong if I need it to, and stops well. I'd go IRS in the future, add rear discs as well, but, again, I'm not rushing off to the Nurburgring to test my skills.
Good luck to you!
If the picture is any indication, I think it may have been a joke, guys.
If it's a real question, then here's a real answer: go big, or go home. If you want to run with the big dogs, you need to pee in the tall weeds.
If your budget will handle it, a stroked anything over 2 liters just makes these cars more fun! While you can get 130, 140 and even 150 hp out of a stock stroke 1776, 1835 or 1915, you lose bottom end/lower midrange (where you'll spend 95% or more of your time driving) because the engine is set up to rev to 6500 or 7,000 rpm with power so you'll be shifting a lot more to keep it in the powerband. A slightly milder (6,000 rpm redline) yet bigger stroke engine that makes the same or more power will have way more torque in the lower rpm's, that power will be available over a much wider rpm range and the engine will be less maintenance, making the car ultimately that much more fun to drive. For long life it will need to be deep sumped, full flowed, have a thermostatically controlled extra oil cooler, you will need to make sure there is adequate airflow into the engine compartment (more on that later if needed) and (as Bob said) handling/braking will need to be upgraded as well to make the car safe.
1 question- how much do you know about VW's and aircooled performance, and (ok, it's 2 questions) do you know what caster shims are? Al
@stan this is a serious question and sorry to mislead you with the image, thought I would try to lighten up things on the post but guess it backfired! (Hope some might find it punny 
Ahem...anyways . . . everyone, Thanks for the feedback and input!! This is a wealth of information. @ALB unfortunately I don’t know much on this subject, I’m a driver but don’t really tinker below the hood yet.
I just love to drive it like it’s stolen around town but typically don’t go above 10 of the speed limit (ie I take off on red lights so I’m a head of the pack: then cruise at 75-79 mph on high ways.)
Will be driving this car at least a few times a week and going 100-200 miles total on hilly, windy roads. Maybe the 1915 is enough? I’m just not sure as I’m not really sure how much power these have based on the weight of the car etc.
ill be savings quote a bit of dough if I stick with the 1915 vs going bigger so this is why it’s such a big consideration for me.
welcome your thoughts thanks!!
The other question is budget! How much HP can you afford? Got to bigger may mean trashing all that you currently have to include the engine case. I've seen cases that were bored to 94 mm where the threads for the head studs are visible. Will it pull the head studs - might/might not. A 1776/1835 cc might be a better solution for an OEM case.
As someone above intimated, engine size isn't the only factor. I had a Pat Downs-built 1915 that was considerably stronger than some basic engines of the same size. It had big Webers, an A1 Sidewinder exhaust, wedge ported heads and some fancy cam that I don't have any data on. Other than a few carb issues through its life the engine was solid as a rock for the 57k miles of my ownership, and I expect the next owner to get years of fun out of it. It's better to get something built by someone like him than a larger engine by a no-name builder. I did enjoy the drive in Tom Blankinship's 2054 (also built by Pat) as it had more torque.
I went through this size debate- and a lot more (AC vs WC) as many of you here know...finally decided on an air cooled motor built by Pat. I'm very happy with my decision and feel confident I'll get a good middle option between not enough power - but lower cost - and good power but not high costs and challenges of maintaining a higher performance motor. Pat is building a 2017cc motor for me with a Sidewinder exhaust that he says will be 140hp...should do the trick for me. I'm also in Northern California and live in a hilly area. I sent him my deposit a few days ago- so I'm in the que and should have a motor by late February.
@Speedster Where in Norther California are you? Close to La Honda? Subie for sure hills and freeway
@Lane Anderson- How high did the engine in your car rev with power? In 3rd gear you'd feel the power peak (which would be your redline shift point), although it would rev a couple/few hundred rpm higher. And that difference in torque you felt in Tom's car can be attributed to the displacement increase as well as shorter rod ratio (it probably has the same length rods as in your 1915- 137 mm, or 5.4") with the longer stroke crankshaft- 137 divided by 69 =1.99 vs 137 divided by 74 =1.85
And you are right, Lane; not all 1915's (or 1776's, 1835's, 1968's, 2007's,and on and on...) are created equal!
@Blake- You're going to love it! Do you have the specs of what Pat is going to build for you?
A properly built 2110.
And a Berg 5-speed.
Screw the budget,
Terry Nuckels posted:A properly built 2110.
And a Berg 5-speed.
Screw the budget,
That is Speedster heaven, right there!
ALB posted:@Lane Anderson- How high did the engine in your car rev with power? In 3rd gear you'd feel the power peak (which would be your redline shift point), although it would rev a couple/few hundred rpm higher. And that difference in torque you felt in Tom's car can be attributed to the displacement increase as well as shorter rod ratio (it probably has the same length rods as in your 1915- 137 mm, or 5.4") with the longer stroke crankshaft- 137 divided by 69 =1.99 vs 137 divided by 74 =1.85
And you are right, Lane; not all 1915's (or 1776's, 1835's, 1968's, 2007's,and on and on...) are created equal!
@Blake- You're going to love it! Do you have the specs of what Pat is going to build for you?
Thanks- I feel good about my choice...once I get the spec sheet from Pat I'll publish it here.
Speedster posted:
...ill be savings quite a bit of dough if I stick with the 1915 vs going bigger...
I'm guessing you won't be saving any dough at all with a 1915, based on a few other things you said:
Speedster posted:
...I just love to drive it like it’s stolen around town...
...I take off on red lights so I’m ahead of the pack: then cruise at 75-79 mph on highways...
...Will be driving this car at least a few times a week and going 100-200 miles total on hilly, windy roads...
If you have a budget-minded 1915 built, you'll be disappointed trying to get 'ahead of the pack' coming off a light or trying to cruise at 80 mph on the highway. And probably just as disappointed on a 200-mile jaunt through our lovely Sierra foothills.
Before long, you'll be looking to sell the car or put yet another engine in. Be realistic about your expectations for the car (how you really intend to use it), bite the bullet, and put in the engine you really need the first time around.
A 1915 could be built to do all that, but it would most likely end up costing what a mildly tuned 2110 would, and the 2110 will be less stressed through it all and therefore probably last longer.
These engines are based on 70 year old engineering. They drive very differently from modern cars. Their power may be rated at 5500 or 6000 rpm, but that's NOT where you want to be driving them. Running up through the gears, you'll hit 4000 pretty often and maybe even 5000 sometimes, but they like to cruise around 3000-3500. You want an engine that has as much torque as possible between 2500-3500. That's what the strokers are all about. The long stroke makes a lot more torque than stock engines (or most 1915's) down low.
As someone else suggested, it's a very good idea to find an engine builder you can trust first and discuss with them just what your expectations are. A good builder will have lots of questions for you - like where you live and how you drive.
More than a few of us can sadly testify that saving a little money up front can be the most expensive thing you ever do.
Al, to answer your question, I’m not really sure. I saw over 6000 RPM a couple of times and let off because I didn’t want to grenade the engine. It seemed happy to keep revving, but I was chicken.
Mitch, mine seemed happiest around 4000, where it was smoother the higher I went. I cruised many thousands of miles around 80 mph.
Great analysis, @Sacto Mitch!
And @Speedster (do you have a first name?)- I agree with Mitch; with the way you've described your driving style and expectations, you need to be in the bigger than 2 liters club. The questions I have now, though- are you prepared to learn how to work on and maintain a high performance aircooled engine (which includes investing a whack of money in tools if you don't have them already), and do you think you'll be able to learn to recognize when said engine is at it's limits due to the ambient conditions around it (and not overheat the thing continually)?
Stepping into the 2 liter club will require a fast learning curve, and sometimes this is where the shine wears off the dream. There are very few really competent aircooled mechanics around any more and if the car is continually spending more time in the garage (waiting for maintenance or repairs) maybe Subaru power should be a thought? I'm really not trying to rain on your parade here; I just think you should know what you're getting into. Al
@Speedster where in Northern California are you? There are a number of us here; quite a few with 1915cc engines.
I suggest you drive one of our cars. And see first hand if it’s enough power.
-Kevin
I'm very partial to the Raby 
2165. 78 stroke and 94 bore. Peak torque at 3800(flat curve too!), hp rises all the way to 6500. Oh yeah! But it ALL depends, and all parts must work together, and be designed to work together. Carbs, heads, compression, combustion chamber volume and shape, cam, rockers, and exhaust. It all MATTERS.
Spend (and cry) once.
Well sure it all depends on resources of course a bigger engine like a 2165 is better if you can afford it. I ran a 1915 for many years in my 1969 Porsche 912 it had 041 dual port heads, a Engle 110 cam, performance exhaust, Bosch 009 (German) and twin Dellorto 36 DRLA carbs and I was always liked that motor. Had a stock German crank pulled good to 5500rpm...
Raby made some nice engines didn't he?
But...no more. Or at least no more T1 VWs.
Speedster: as you see, most guys here say bigger is better and I think they're right. But they also say this if all variables are held equal.
In other words, if you buy a Pat Downs-built 1915 you'll get a very nice, strong engine that makes 125 horses at about 5500 rpm and about 130 ft-pounds at about 4000, and that's enough engine to make a Speedster fun.
But if you buy a Pat-built 2110 you'll get 150 horses and 145 ft-lbs, which is funner.
If you want to save money, you will end up with less. And along with less usable power you'll probably get less reliability. Several people on this board have, in the past few years, had to replace engines that were built by skilled people because some small part or another failed.
Plenty others have, as has been explained, bought small and then moved up later. You may or may not lose a lot of money doing this but it will at least cost you some time.
So: prioritize. Money spent on a well-built 2110 is money wisely invested. Your other excellent option—for even more usable power and more reliability—is the Subaru engine. I like the old 2.2 with the single overhead cams but those are getting a bit rare, and the later 2.5s are stronger.
For a not-mechanically-active owner, the soob is hard to beat. Heck, it's hard to beat anyway!
Sacto Mitch said "More than a few of us can sadly testify that saving a little money up front can be the most expensive thing you ever do."
Ed said "For a not-mechanically-active owner, the soob is hard to beat. Heck, it's hard to beat anyway!"
Just thinking about how true those comments were !
Blake posted:I went through this size debate- and a lot more (AC vs WC) as many of you here know...finally decided on an air cooled motor built by Pat. I'm very happy with my decision and feel confident I'll get a good middle option between not enough power - but lower cost - and good power but not high costs and challenges of maintaining a higher performance motor. Pat is building a 2017cc motor for me with a Sidewinder exhaust that he says will be 140hp...should do the trick for me. I'm also in Northern California and live in a hilly area. I sent him my deposit a few days ago- so I'm in the que and should have a motor by late February.
Hi @Blake, where abouts in Norcal? I'm in the peninsula. 140 hp sounds incredible! I'm still a noob here and am not very mechanically competent - but learning by reading these threads one line at a time. I saw a bunch of Pat Down's engines for sale on this site.
Looks like my budget won't stretch much further at the moment, so I'll need to see how the stock 1915 goes and take it from there.
calmotion posted:@Speedster Where in Norther California are you? Close to La Honda? Subie for sure hills and freeway
Yes about 20 miles from La Honda. Hopefully can pony up for a bigger engine one day going forward so I can better manage the hills. . .
Terry Nuckels posted:A properly built 2110.
And a Berg 5-speed.
Screw the budget,
Ha!! I keep trying to tell myself that!
Sacto Mitch posted:
Speedster posted:
...ill be savings quite a bit of dough if I stick with the 1915 vs going bigger...
I'm guessing you won't be saving any dough at all with a 1915, based on a few other things you said:
Speedster posted:
...I just love to drive it like it’s stolen around town...
...I take off on red lights so I’m ahead of the pack: then cruise at 75-79 mph on highways...
...Will be driving this car at least a few times a week and going 100-200 miles total on hilly, windy roads...
If you have a budget-minded 1915 built, you'll be disappointed trying to get 'ahead of the pack' coming off a light or trying to cruise at 80 mph on the highway. And probably just as disappointed on a 200-mile jaunt through our lovely Sierra foothills.
Before long, you'll be looking to sell the car or put yet another engine in. Be realistic about your expectations for the car (how you really intend to use it), bite the bullet, and put in the engine you really need the first time around.
A 1915 could be built to do all that, but it would most likely end up costing what a mildly tuned 2110 would, and the 2110 will be less stressed through it all and therefore probably last longer.
These engines are based on 70 year old engineering. They drive very differently from modern cars. Their power may be rated at 5500 or 6000 rpm, but that's NOT where you want to be driving them. Running up through the gears, you'll hit 4000 pretty often and maybe even 5000 sometimes, but they like to cruise around 3000-3500. You want an engine that has as much torque as possible between 2500-3500. That's what the strokers are all about. The long stroke makes a lot more torque than stock engines (or most 1915's) down low.
As someone else suggested, it's a very good idea to find an engine builder you can trust first and discuss with them just what your expectations are. A good builder will have lots of questions for you - like where you live and how you drive.
More than a few of us can sadly testify that saving a little money up front can be the most expensive thing you ever do.
Very wise words Sacto! Making this decision is a lot more difficult than I thought - so much to consider and big implications (and costs) down the line by saving money upfront . . .
ALB posted:Great analysis, @Sacto Mitch!
And @Speedster (do you have a first name?)- I agree with Mitch; with the way you've described your driving style and expectations, you need to be in the bigger than 2 liters club. The questions I have now, though- are you prepared to learn how to work on and maintain a high performance aircooled engine (which includes investing a whack of money in tools if you don't have them already), and do you think you'll be able to learn to recognize when said engine is at it's limits due to the ambient conditions around it (and not overheat the thing continually)?
Stepping into the 2 liter club will require a fast learning curve, and sometimes this is where the shine wears off the dream. There are very few really competent aircooled mechanics around any more and if the car is continually spending more time in the garage (waiting for maintenance or repairs) maybe Subaru power should be a thought? I'm really not trying to rain on your parade here; I just think you should know what you're getting into. Al
ALB, appreciate the heads up and your comment sounds spot on. I'm definitely not mechanically competent and between juggling work and 3 small children, it's going to be difficult for me to find time to dig into any of that. Yesterday, I was actually told that a 2L engine would require me to tinker a lot more and is a totally different ballgame to managing and maintaining a 1915s. Given budget and time, it seems I'm headed to a 1915s...
Kevin - Bay Area (formerly SF-Speedster) posted:@Speedster where in Northern California are you? There are a number of us here; quite a few with 1915cc engines.
I suggest you drive one of our cars. And see first hand if it’s enough power.
-Kevin
Thanks for the offer Kevin!! I'm based in Los Altos. It sounds like I have few choices at the moment and will be getting the 1915 to start with (most likely incurring higher costs down the line). Any Norcal speedster get togethers coming up? Would love to have coffee, talk cars, and see some of these beauties!
IaM-Ray posted:Sacto Mitch said "More than a few of us can sadly testify that saving a little money up front can be the most expensive thing you ever do."
Ed said "For a not-mechanically-active owner, the soob is hard to beat. Heck, it's hard to beat anyway!"
Just thinking about how true those comments were !
Everyone thanks for sharing your perspectives and wisdom here. I can totally see both comments above playing out to be true. @edsnova great summary of the key learnings from SOC.
Given my limited time to learn/tinker with a bigger engine and the higher cost of a soob or bigger engine, I'm going to try my luck with the 1915 and see what happens - however at least I won't be going into this without knowing the downsides of doing so. This is definitely a first world problem and I know how lucky I am to be getting one of these babies!!
Thanks all and speak soon 
A mild > 2 liter engine that revs to 5500 or 6,000 rpm with power, has reasonable compression and doesn't have huge valve lift isn't really any more work than a comparatively outfitted (stock stroke) 1915 cc engine, as long as it's getting enough air into the engine compartment to keep under hood temps under control and has a thermostatically controlled extra cooler/fan keeping oil temps down. If you know how to change oil, adjust valves, change spark plugs, adjust timing and tune a carburetor on a stock 1600 you can probably take care of a larger engine. It does take time to learn, though, and if you're determined that the car will be aircooled, starting with a smaller engine that revs to 5,000 rpm (it will be more bullet-proof) may be the way to start. Expect to spend time in the garage learning these skills, and after getting a couple of driving seasons under your belt you'll be in a better position to assess what's right for you.
If, after gaining some experience with these antique powerplants you decide that you'd like more power, you can always sell the engine you have and build (have built) something bigger.
Hope this helps. Al
ALB posted:A mild > 2 liter engine that revs to 5500 or 6,000 rpm with power, has reasonable compression and doesn't have huge valve lift isn't really any more work than a comparatively outfitted (stock stroke) 1915 cc engine, as long as it's getting enough air into the engine compartment to keep under hood temps under control and has a thermostatically controlled extra cooler/fan keeping oil temps down. If you know how to change oil, adjust valves, change spark plugs, adjust timing and tune a carburetor on a stock 1600 you can probably take care of a larger engine. It does take time to learn, though, and if you're determined that the car will be aircooled, starting with a smaller engine that revs to 5,000 rpm (it will be more bullet-proof) may be the way to start. Expect to spend time in the garage learning these skills, and after getting a couple of driving seasons under your belt you'll be in a better position to assess what's right for you.
If, after gaining some experience with these antique powerplants you decide that you'd like more power, you can always sell the engine you have and build (have built) something bigger.
Hope this helps. Al
Thanks suggestion of skills to build up in the future - will be a good project for my kids and I to learn and bond over. Excited to get my hands dirty learning to “change oil, adjust valves, change spark plugs, adjust timing and tune a carburetor”. 👍🏼
@Speedster , I think the more time you take to consider the options, the easier a decision will be. There's really no need to make a quick choice and some good reasons not to.
I followed this forum for about a year before deciding, but ended up making a few serious mistakes, anyhow. I should have learned more before writing any checks.
Despite all the free advice you may read here, if you have no experience with air-cooled motors and aren't inclined to wrench much yourself, you'll need to find a local mechanic to help you in any case. And it's probably better to find that mechanic before you buy anything than after. I sure wish I had done that.
While you're pretty far from Auburn, one of the best air-cooled mechanics in the region is located there and I'd strongly suggest you contact him for starters and let him lay out the options for you. He steered me through a new engine and transaxle for my car and has turned it into a reliable ride I can take anywhere, from local wine country trips to week-long expeditions.
His shop is Anthony's Classic Autowerks, he comments on the forum here as @Anthony , and his website is here.
@Speedster wow your close to me. I can meet you at Woodside so you can check out a Soobie dooo. 👍
calmotion posted:@Speedster wow your close to me. I can meet you at Woodside so you can check out a Soobie dooo. 👍
Thanks @Sacto Mitch Great point. I do have a good mechanic in mind but thanks for the referral
@calmotion Yes, would be great to meet up and check out the soobie power - we should organize a quick get together. Alice's? Or know another place that's less obvious?
@Speedster yes Alice is awesome. my backyard. Let me know when your available. Must be very occupied with small kids 👍👏
If I may post again, given the information you have no provided, here's my advice:
Land on one end of the spectrum or the other. If you truly can't afford a Subaru (and make no mistake-- that is what you want), then get a Mexicrate 1776 with Kadrons, and drive it until you do have the money for a conversion, because anything in the middle is going to be unsatisfying, no matter who screws it together.
A nice air-cooled engine still needs love and attention. Valves will be adjusted. Carbs will be tinkered with. Timing will slip. It will buck and fart and spit until it's warmed up. You'll struggle to find a mechanic. You'll wonder why it doesn't have more power for the $7-10,000 you spent. If you're the air-cooled junkie, there's nothing else like it. If you're a normal, sane, and rational man:
Buy once, cry once.
Another great budget motor I built was a 1760cc T1. Simply a 1600cc with 87mm slip in pistons and a counterweighted 74mm crank. The only machining necessary is to slightly clearance the case for the larger stroke which can easily be done at home with some grinding using a hand held die grinder. Easy to do and some cases don't even require this. I ran one for a couple years in my 912 until I went bigger...
