side to side movement at rear suspension

Was driving home last weekend. As I was exiting off interstate Megan and I heard what sounded like a lug nut bouncing between the pavement and the pan of the car. This happened twice, at two different times. Both times as I was decelerating off interstate making a sweeping right hand turn. I was busy drying the car out all week. This morning I jacked the car up to look for loose/missing bolts, nuts, etc. The following video is of what I found.
WTF!

Paul

Hmmm... It looks like the diagonal control arm has lost its connection at the front. I don't have IRS in mine, and thus am not intimate with the details of how it goes together, so I could be way off, but if you haven't already gotten that safety check, do so ASAP. Either way, I wouldn't drive it until you get this resolved.

Video...A great way of getting a diagnosis here...
Nice all wheel steering option too :)

Yup, the diagonal has come adrift at the front. Either the bracket has fractured or the pin/bolt has gone missing or possibly the bushing has deteriorated and fallen out.

Of course you shouldn't drive it, just get it up, pull the wheel, shine a drop lamp in there and see what needs fixing. It's not gonna be too big of a deal to repair, just a lot of disassembly to get to it. I imagine that this is more fuel for the fire . . .

Luck,

TC

Paul,
That's a pretty easy fix as TC already said. I have much experience with IRS since I completely redid mine this summer. A closer look (Video or pics) at the front of the control arm would help in diagnosing whats needed.
Take a look at the other side and see what the difference is. Then you'll know what it was bouncing down the road.
Definitely get it to PEEK ASAP.
I'd be more than happy to come down and help you out on this one since I feel pretty comfy with this aspect of these cars.
I just can't believe that's happened!

Alan, Not quite all wheel... 3 wheel:)
TC, took a closer look. There is no bolt where it looks like there should be. I now have a good idea what I heard bouncing around under the car last week.
Paul

DO NOT DRIVE THE CAR WITHOUT THAT BOLT IN PLACE!!

The bolt is actually a 17mm hex bolt, unique to VW IRS rear ends. You can use the same giant allen wrench on it as you might use for the transmission drain plug. I took one of those allen wrenches and cut about 1" off the long end and use that in a 17mm socket for a little extra oomph.

Once the bolt is installed and torqued (87 ft. lbs), there are four little slots machined along the head. Get under the car and use a cold chisel to indent the bolt carrier slightly into one of those slots - that is the method used to keep the bolt from backing out.

gn

"that is the method used to keep the bolt from backing out."

Evidently not by ALL Speedster builders . . .

Yeah, a newly built car no less. That's really unbelievable and inexcusable.

Good soundtrack for the second video, though.

Does that take a big bolt with a hex allen inset? If so I suspect I have one in my bolt box. Just hour south on I95. If ya want it yell and I'll hunt it up.

Peek sold me a 17mm Allen socket for not a lot of money. I think it was five bucks or so -- very handy. Much less of a pain in the ass. I still have my cut-off Allen wrench, and you're welcome to either one.
I think you really need to get that car into the shop, though.

That is some way serious sh*t , I would have this car totally gone over by someone that knows WTH they are doing beofre someone gets hurt or worse................................

I appreciate all the advice, and offers for parts. I have been waiting a little over a week to hear from someone at Thunder Ranch about getting the car to a shop for a safety inspection. I have decided I will not be turning a wrench on this vehicle. I will let Tom determine what shop will do the work. Thunder Ranch cars do come with a 12 month warranty. This car has less than 3k miles on it, 2 months since its been delivered. I would hate to void the warranty by trying to fix anything myself no matter how capable I am.
Wolfgang, after looking at the side that is still together, it is exactly that. A big bolt with a hex allen inset. The parts may help to keep the shop cost down, Ill be in touch. Great information on how the assembly goes together! I hope others building there kits find it useful.
Paul

Paul,
That happened to me earlier this year.
The 17mm hex bolt had dislodged and the torsion arm moved on an arc.
Every time I took a hard left the rear end felt like it wanted to trade places with the front. The only thing that kept it fairly safe was the tire rubbing against the fender well.
It's a little tricky to get the bolt threaded; it takes a little leverage to align the hole just right. Once you get it tightened up, you need to strike the edge of the bolt and the torsion arm with a cold chisel to lock it in place.
The first time it happened I was driving quite fast...scared the sh*t out of me.

Why the cold chisel? How cold?

It is not just any bolt with a 17mm hex hole. It is a unique bolt for this use.

If you don't like the cold chisel routine you can buy bolts with a hole for safety wire from aircooled.net.

There should also be some big washers in there too.

good thing you caught it when you did.

you will need #6 in this picture:
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/405966.jpg

#6 Trailing Arm Pivot Bolt (M14x1.5mm threads)
you'll probably need the washers too.

here are some "real" photos of the bolt:
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/338543.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/338542.jpg

literally a 5 minute fix with the part in hand and the car jacked up.

Time to hit a vw bone yard. Im not even sure any Vendors sells that bolt and shim set. They have to go in a certain way to aline the rear wheel. After you get it back together and BEFORE you stake um.

Definatly have it alined. If you happened to get it shimmed wrong it will be alot easyer to fix on the spot.. Make sure you have the socket take with you at the alinement shop I.ve ran it that problem too . afterwards you can restake the bolts ON both of them and let them check both bolts and stakeum if youed prefer..

Barry's absolutely right, so let's make it even clearer for you:

That bolt has a lot to do with determining the rear wheel alignment on an IRS. Along with the bolt and bushings (which may no longer be attached to the diagonal arm by this point) there are two, thick, special thrust washers on there used to fine tune rear wheel toe-out.

He's also right that not a lot of places sell them, because they are unique to '69-'79 VW's with IRS only.

The normal idea is that you just install it with one washer on each side of the diagonal arm bushing, because "that looks right". This is not true. Depending on what your rear wheel alignment looks like on an alignment machine, you may need to put both on one side, both on the other side or one on each side. Only doing a rear wheel alignment will tell you what must be done.

Oh, and a "Cold Chisel"is simply the name of the tool, not the temperature of it.

I had something similar to yours but i have the swing axle. When i was going around a corner i would feel and hear something scraping, sounded like metal on metal. This only was apparent when i had been driving for more than 15mins or so. I thought that the clearance between the disk and the caliper was to tight. When i pulled the assembley apart i found that the rear wheel bearings where pretty worn out! What a B1tch to change them. Now car feels so much more planted and no noises.

21 seconds into the second video it looks as though the bolt has sheared off. I may be wrong though. If it has sheared off please don't ask me to change it!

I guess I was lucky when it happened to me. The bolt stayed in the hole, bushings intact.
I probably drove a couple hundred miles with it like that, hard miles, too.
I thought I had a front end problem and took it to my mechanic. He didn't spot it. I found it when I was doing a routine check on the tires.
I think it was the Bentley manual that describes the installation procedure.
Neither my mechanic nor John Steele had ever seen this happen before but I know the bolt had never been "locked" in place. Mo marks.
Might be a good idea for anyone who has a car with IRS and built by others to take a close look at their rear ends.
Shut up, Vince.

"........I probably drove a couple hundred miles with it like that"
First off, get yourself a new mechanic, car should not have come off the lift or allowed on the road until the problem was located. Then you better attend your local church today for a moment of thanks.

Alan,
My rear wheels set low enough and clearance is tight enough that my wheels couldn't push their way out of the fender well. That's probably why the bolt never fell out.
My mechanic is a friend. We looked at the front end because that's where I thought the problem was. He found worn wheel bearings and replaced them. He also found a little play in the beam and we figured that was it.
When two people were in the car the problem wouldn't show up because the right side was weighted.
As far as church goes...I'm with God wherever I go, aren't you?

"I'm with God wherever I go, aren't you? "



I don't wanna seem paranoid or anything, but I think that he sees me whatever I do, where ever I go . . . I mean, that Dude's been STALKING me, ya know ? ! ? ! ? ! ?

Saw a sign once that read, "God is everywhere!" I believe it! I'm in the car the other day and all of a sudden the passenger seat belt warning kicks in, fuck if he wasn't sitting right there,
like he's my co-pilot or somethin'. SHIT ! ! ! He's probably lookin' right AT me . . . right now.

http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D501%2D535%2DA

$25 cdn each and includes washers.

I dunno, but I think God just told me to go out and look at my pivot bolts!

~WB

Well One thing for sure If he cant find one close by easy Id DO know where to get one with washers..

But he will have to pay the shipping. and Mr vestal will have to pull it from one of his wrecks...

In looking for a replacement bolt and washers (original) I came across these pieces. Has anyone seen these installed?

http://ratedxoffroad.com/Product.aspx?pid=438

P

Paul,

Am I the only one here with his jaw on the floor? This is OUTRAGEOUS fior a brand new car. I don't know the Thunder ranch crowd, their cars or anything, but based on your situation here I would never in a hundred years suggest anyone even look at one, let alone buy one. This really is beyond the pale, as they say. This car HAS to get to Peeks and has to be thoroughly inspected -- every nut, bolt and washer. Why has this not happened already? Take the car there, and get Dave to call Tom and let the rebuilding begin. If you are waiting for a call from Tom because of your pride, I think you will be waiting a very long time. Unbelievable. If I wasn't so wordy, I'd be speechless . . .

Pauleric,

I don't think these are intended for IRS VW applications. I can't imagine how they would be installed.

I am using the bolts shown in the CIP1 link above and will safety wire them. They shouldn't come out.

Kelly,

Don't worry about a thing! Gordon and Cory stepped right in and pretty much have everything "in hand."

Gordon's holding McBurnie's dick, and Cory's sucking it . . . .




I've never seen such a soft ball approach to such an obviously shabby situation.
The workmanship is shit! At any price, by any one, for any reason. It's shabby shit ! !
The car should never have left the garage.


Of course, it ain't my fight.

Gee Tom, you hitting that bong again? your alliteration becomes you!

~WB

to be fair to TR - i seriously doubt all of you gear heads (myself included) use a torque wrench on every bolt.

It's not like they forgot the put the bolt *in*, it just wasn't tight enough and came out. Ya it's a big deal, but you (TC) make it sound like they did it on purpose

Of course, it isn't my fight.

We're discussing a fairly an expensive, largely hand built car done in a small shop where quality control is VERY easy to maintain, I would CERTAINLY expect each and every bolt to be tightened or torqued, and double checked as well. These cars aren't being pumped out one every seven minutes. They're done a piece at a time, put together by hand, and I would be absolutely INSANE if I found my car in this condition. They REALLY just aren't that complicated, there's no excuse AT ALL for shabby construction. A loose bolt, striped screw or whatever is almost more difficult to achieve than a correctly tightened one, UNLESS there is a lack of care, control, pride or professionalism on the part of the builder.

Believe me. We've built SCCA classed race cars over and again, EVERYTHING in sight is tight

On every car that we do, all of the bolts are hit with a paint pen. This means that they've all been been checked, plus it shows if a bolt (or screw) is backing off as well; the paint line doesn't line up.

My opinion, nothing more here. I'd just expect so much more from a professional. Back yard builder, OK, but NOT ever from a pro. NEVER! Check it twice, and THEN again.

I mean REALLY, is everyone INSANE ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! It's a damned nearly $30,000 hand built machine . . .

We must just demand more value for the dollar around here. This shit would never fly in my world.

TC,
I'm with you. I've talked with Paul (via email) and Cory and I chatted on the phone a few times about it. In my opinion there is NO excuse for any of it. I don't care what was said between Paul and Tom about what, where, or when. It all rests on Tom. If Tom agreed to do the work it's his deal and not Pauls.
Tom took the money. Tom agreed to build a car for Paul. Where is there any grey area in that? The things in some of Pauls pictures are just flat out CRAP! Who in the world would let a car leave with rocker panel trim off that much? I'd be scared to death to get into a car that showed such shotty "craftmanship" on such a simple task. I mean really, how long does it take to do that correctly? What, 20 mins? I bet it took 19 mins to do it crooked. If you can't put rocker panel trim on straight what in God's name can you do right!? I'm sure TR has built some great cars but big deal, that's what they're supposed to do isn't it?
I'll stick to the stand up guys like Carey, Kirk and Henry when it comes to anything I need now or in the future. I would NEVER consider buying a TR because of that rocker panel trim, not to mention the other things.

Well, I tried to diffuse a situation that looked like it was DeWalt and Steele all over again and I thought we could do better this time.

That didn't work.

I asked Cory to get involved because I couldn't go there myself and I wanted another set of experienced eyes, that I could trust, to tell me what was going on to see where I could help.

Based on what I learned from Cory, I talked with Tom McBurnie (on MY dime) and he agreed that he would contact Paul and "take the high road" to find out what was going on and get it fixed, and that the best thing would be to get the car to Peek for a safety evaluation and then go from there.

As far as I know, he never contacted Paul at all (it may have happened, but I've never heard that it did), nor has Paul taken the car to Peek for that safety evaluation we recommended. Instead, he seems to be doing whatever he wants to do, regardless of the recommendations of others of us, and I still don't see the car either getting safety inspected by a professional third party OR getting things fixed by Thunder Ranch.

And all the while, Tom Canty is happy to shoot his mouth off while contributing nothing to getting the situation rectified.

Did Paul Rich receive a car that appears to have major problems from Thunder Ranch, a so-called reputable builder? Absolutely.

Has Paul taken the car to Peek (or any other professional mechanic) to get a safety inspection done and report results? Apparently not. For over a month now.

Has Thunder Ranch stepped up to the plate and taken charge of the situation to overcome the problems, get them fixed and regain Thunder Ranch's reputation? Not in the least. All he's done is attack his customer in public. Poor tactic, and further ruining his own reputation.

I'm done. I tried to get an equitable solution, but neither side seems to want to work together, with or without me, so I'm out of it.

At this juncture, based on what we've seen so far, I could not recommend Thunder Ranch to anyone.

Could YOU?

Rumor has it that work has been done on the car (what? I can't say.) but it wasn't done at PEEK. But it WAS paid for by Tom at TR.
I don't think the trailing arm issue has been dealt with though because Paul posted a question about a part in regard to that issue on another thread. So I don't really know what has been fixed, inspected, or paid for to this point.


What it boils down to is this - We're all different in regard to what we expect from our cars. Whether you bought new or used, or whether you know how to turn a wrench or not. Personally I've learned a ton about my car from this site and from working on it over the past few years. But I still would expect a safe, well built car if I decided to buy a turnkey, no matter who I bought it from.

We all know this wasn't some "spec order" situation, very few are. This was a situation where both parties spoke numerous times through the build and things were agreed upon. And being that Tom agreed to build the car EVERYTHING is Toms responsibility. Period. Tom agreed to a certain amount to build it. Tom agreed to have it delivered as promised. Tom agreed to do certain things to the car that weren't "normal". Since Tom agreed to all of that then it's Toms fault if he didn't come through and NO ONE ELSES! This wasn't some instance of a few things slipping though the cracks. This was out and out crappy business practice. Tom got in over his head and made promises he couldn't come through on. And when he realized he was losing it he gave up and sent out a crappy product because he knows that all will be forgiven and forgotten as time goes on. To me that