softer front and rear torsion bars for better ride.

What I can say is this: I don't dance with my car-- I flog it like a rented mule. I'm not anywhere near as smooth as Carlos, who's a better driver than me by a wide margin. But last Saturday, while traveling at the same pace on very tight mountain roads-- his mid-engined (swing-axle) Spyder was breaking loose, when my car was not.

Stan, Carlos and I have Yokohama touring tires, which slide and squeal like the proverbial pig. They really protested the Lime Rock abuse. They also slid around a bunch at autocross.

I was sliding my car at will. Sometimes I'd make it understeer, sometimes I'd go through neutral. Sometimes I'd dance between neutral and oversteer. Most of the time I was trail-braking into the corner to start rotation, then easing off the brake, then easing the gas on exit until the back end made a nice tail-out arc. 

The only thing my chassis needs is stickier tires. I don't understand why y'all are scared of swing axles. If you limit the downward travel like Carlos and I have, outside wheel tuck is impossible.

Driving a Spyder at or over the limit requires a sensitive ass, just like Niki Lauda. You have to be able to feel it before your eyes can see it happening.

I'll add my Koni front and adjustable QA1 coilovers in rear are about perfect.

I ran 23F 26R all weekend. Spot on.

Danny,

We're saying the same thing regarding tires, and probably regarding Speedsters and Spyders. I understand all of the baked-in-the-cake mid-engine chassis reasons why a Spyder will handle better with equal rubber. 

I was trying to point out that I was surprised that the Spyders with Yoko touring tires were breaking loose when my Speedster with the Sportrac summer performance tires was not. I would have thought that the advantage of the Spyder chassis would trump the rubber in keeping the tires sticking. All the magazines say it's true, but I saw it for myself-- good tires make a huge difference.

The limiting straps on the swing-axles on your Spyders are a huge help, and there's no arguing that the weight/engine placement gives a Spyder an advantage over a heavier, rear-engine Speedster, even with the Spyder's swing-axle. However, nobody runs the straps on a Speedster, and a camber compensator isn't the same thing. This isn't a contest-- the cars (Speedsters and Spyders) are apples and oranges, but if an IRS rear was available for Spyders, there's no doubt they would be better yet.

As an aside, it wouldn't matter to me if they did, because I don't fit in a Spyder. I look like a bear on a tricycle in yours. Until somebody makes a 9/8 scale Spyder, I'll have to live with the limitations of my lowly Speedster.

Swing axles scare me precisely because I'm not Niki Lauda. I'm a ham-fisted hack having fun hammering on my clown-car. If good tires can make a bullet-headed corn-fed white boy feel like Ayrton Senna, they're probably worth the money.

I don't know anything about me being any better a driver than you guys, I'm still learning my car, but this Wizard was casting some serious spells during that ride.

The "I hope I don't slide my a$$ off of this damn road" spell. I would get some turns right, then others, not so much. It was a physical event for sure.

All I know is that I need some stickier rubber.

We were all running pretty hard on Saturday. I had an absolute blast.

I already knew I needed better rubber from my track and autocross exploits. But I never thought I'd need them on the street. Obviously, our touring tires aren't enough. 

It was really cool seeing how much stick good tires give even a ham-fisted hack LOL!

Carlos, you're right, but with a little more time you'll get there. I was giggling like an idiot playing with the cornering attitude of my car. That ride was a revelation, and immensely fun!

Too bad Michelin doesn't make Pilot Super Sports in your size.  I was amazed at how well the BMW stuck with y'all in the switchbacks.  I gained new a appreciation for my little daily driver.

Jim Gilbert - Madison, Mississippi posted:

Michael B (aka bluespeedster SoCal) posted:

Jim G- what KYB Gas Shocks part number did you use on your Speedster? Is your Speedster one of Kirk's VS? Thank you for any info.

Bought the  KBY shocks from Summit racing. KBY-34314, $17.68 each. I also ordered the rear shocks, KBY-343143, $29.20 each. Should have checked the rear shocks before ordering; they had KBY gas shocks installed in new condition. I'll be returning the rear shocks.

There is a $40 rebate on a set of 4 but MUST be purchased before 10/31.

My Speedster is a JPS.

Thank you Jim G. I believe there is no difference between Kirk's VS vs JPS suspension. I'll look up the PN specs.

I know VS for some reason (added harshness perhaps?) didn't use a front anti-roll bar -not even the thin VW stock one (below) on the majority of their cars.  Is that true for JPS too?

I never understood why they didn't simply reuse the stock one - $4 worth of new bushings and it would be good to go faster around corners.

Well, here's one reason why VS may not have included an anti-sway bar as standard equipment.

You could order a front bar on a new VS build as an option (I did on my car), but they interfered with the front bumper brackets if you did. It was left to the customer to discover and sort out this apparently inconsequential little matter.

As delivered, my car had about an inch of front suspension travel before the sway bar hit the bracket. This didn't help ride quality one bit.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Well, here's one reason why VS may not have included an anti-sway bar as standard equipment.

You could order a front bar on a new VS build as an option (I did on my car), but they interfered with the front bumper brackets if you did. It was left to the customer to discover and sort out this apparently inconsequential little matter.

As delivered, my car had about an inch of front suspension travel before the sway bar hit the bracket. This didn't help ride quality one bit.

 

 

And that could have been fixed with about 30 mins of time. At least that’s how long it took me to fix it. 

Damned shame.  Anyway I found a anti-sway bar that fit perfectly without interfering with the front bumper brackets. I have posted this info previously.  There was no need to do any cutting  of the bumper bracket at all---just plug and play.  This bar does make a significant improvement in the driveability of the VS.

Other improvements that every VS owner should make are to fit a camber compensator and a set of beam brackets---CSP puts out a nice set of these.  Easy to install and besides a safety factor, other benefits are obtained.

Porsche first put a front anti-sway bar on their cars about 1954 or '55 (I believe) and VW followed suit a year or 2 later. A few VW owners liked what they did so much that they drilled out the bushings and installed a 2nd bar on top of the first. A year or 2 after the factory VW bar showed up a heavier aftermarket bar was introduced by the newly formed Engineered Motor Products Incorporated.

EMPI was originally started by Joe Vittone, an L. A. area VW (and Porsche?) dealer, and built quality products (the Empi of today has no association with the original other than the name), the first being replacement valve guides for heads, which until that time VW had deemed throw aways when the guides wore out. When VW saw the EMPI valve guides (and how little work it took to renew a set of heads at Vittone's dealership) they adopted the practice. But I digress...

Neither a properly mounted front nor rear sway bar affects ride quality- simply driving over a bump (or into a dip) doesn't flex the bar; that only happens when 1 side of the car is weighted as the car is steered into a turn. In normal driving you wouldn't really know it's there! I agree with you, @WOLFGANG, even a stock front bar would make handling more smooth (and predictable). They should be on all Speedsters! As the esteemed self proclaimed President for Life of Galatistan (or is it Stanistan? All these new countries popping up in these modern times; it's too early here on the Wet Coast! ), @Stan Galat has said, " The thing does say Speedster right on the side of it, you know!"

@Sacto Mitch is probably right as to why VS didn't normally include a front anti-sway bar on their builds, though. Building the front bumper brackets from the start to clear the bar is such a simple task; it's a shame that they never took the time to equip their cars with even a stock front bar (as @Robert M pointed out).

@Jack Crosby- I know you gave us the info before, but could you post a link to that front bar again? And you're right, a set of beam stiffeners (anchors the outboard ends of the front beam) to the pan) and a rear camber compensator both go a long way to make these cars safer (and handle more predictably) when driven "spiritedly". 

Yoda out (for now, but back you know I will be!)

Don't talk to me about valve guides. My 912 ate them like candy. I made a few mortgage payments for Chick Iverson Porsche in SoCal back then getting them replaced several times. 

I had to modified my CMC front bumper bar (cutting and rewelding).  CMC did have a simpler bumper bracket that caused no interference (not sure if it was early or later runs).

Jack Crosby posted:

Damned shame.  Anyway I found a anti-sway bar that fit perfectly without interfering with the front bumper brackets. I have posted this info previously.  There was no need to do any cutting  of the bumper bracket at all---just plug and play.  This bar does make a significant improvement in the driveability of the VS.

Other improvements that every VS owner should make are to fit a camber compensator and a set of beam brackets---CSP puts out a nice set of these.  Easy to install and besides a safety factor, other benefits are obtained.

 

@Jack Crosby

Any chance you have a link for the “Beam Bracket”?

Robert M posted:

And that could have been fixed with about 30 mins of time. At least that’s how long it took me to fix it. 

I'm never sure how stuff is going to come off, but I'm super-curious about this, and am trying to learn. I don't have a pan-based car, but I've toyed around with building one at some point down the road, and I'm always anxious to file away good information.

What was your 30 min fix, @Robert M? The ones I've seen involve cutting a section of bumper bracket out, and welding in reinforcements. It doesn't look like rocket science, but it looks like it would take several hours of work at a minimum (assuming a lift and ready access to metal-working tools and a welder), and a lot longer if a guy was doing it for the first time.

If there's an easier way, I think a lot more guys than just me would like to know about it. @Jack Crosby's no-modification bar perhaps (if you had a part number, that'd be super handy, Jack)? This thread is the first I've heard of that, and I'm very curious how this can be done without a bunch of work.

I did the same fix as everyone else Stan. My 30 min fix time was more sarcasm than reality. If this modification had been done when Kirk was building the car it would not have added much, if any, time to the build process. I'm sure his guys were using a jig to weld the bumper brackets and after modifying said jig it'd add no time to the build. I don't have a lift just a nice jack and jack stands to get the front end off the ground. I had my brackets off in about 20 mins, cut them with a cutting wheel, used a wire wheel to get the paint off, took them to my brother and had him weld them back together, and spent 20 mins putting them back on the car. If I had the welder at home I don't think this entire modification would have taken more than 2 hours. But like I said, if Kirk had done this in the first place it wouldn't have added any time to the build process.

There is a version of the 3/4" bar for lowered cars.  If you mount that upside down it pretty much clears the bumper brackets.  I tried that but it kept hitting things because it extends very low.  I wound up using the standard bar and notching my bumper brackets.  On the modified brackets I used an angle against the beam tubes instead of the original bar.

Stan Galat posted:

Robert M posted:

And that could have been fixed with about 30 mins of time. At least that’s how long it took me to fix it. 

I'm never sure how stuff is going to come off, but I'm super-curious about this, and am trying to learn. I don't have a pan-based car, but I've toyed around with building one at some point down the road, and I'm always anxious to file away good information.

What was your 30 min fix, @Robert M? The ones I've seen involve cutting a section of bumper bracket out, and welding in reinforcements. It doesn't look like rocket science, but it looks like it would take several hours of work at a minimum (assuming a lift and ready access to metal-working tools and a welder), and a lot longer if a guy was doing it for the first time.

If there's an easier way, I think a lot more guys than just me would like to know about it. @Jack Crosby's no-modification bar perhaps (if you had a part number, that'd be super handy, Jack)? This thread is the first I've heard of that, and I'm very curious how this can be done without a bunch of work.

Here's the scoop on the above suspension enhancing items. The CAMBER COMPENSATOR is from CB performance. A "must have" for all swing axle cars. The CSP BRACE BARS add a noticeable sense of stiffening the VS front end such as when I drive over RR tracks or hit a bump in the road.   There is a cheaper  EMPI version but this is the one I opted for.  At the front of the pan floor, there are places where the braces fit.  Not too involved, if I am able to install them. Last is the "Plug and play" SWAY BAR which is another must have. I believe I got mine from CB Performance but it's EMPI stock number is # 9600.  Ask to be sure it will fit your car.   My car is built on a '68 pan and the sway bar just bolted right on with no mods needed to the bumper braces.  I believe musbjum posted how he clearanced  his bumper braces  but it didn't apply to this sway bar in my car because it bolted right on.  Jim has a VS like I do so I can't explain why a mod was neededin the case of his car.

Last, there has been a video posted here of a race on a track  between a bunch of VW bugs---looked like fairly old ones ---60's maybe.  As they rounded a certain corner at speed, at least 25% of the cars rolled over ---I saw at least a dozen cars do this, and that was because of rear wheel tuck, which a camber compensator prevents.  Maybe someone can re-post that video because it is sure instructive.  A roll-over in any Speedster without a roll bar is infinitely more serious than an old hard top bug.

I am pretty well  finished with  adding things to my car and all I do now is gas it up and go because it is as sorted as it's ever going to get.  I hope this info helps someone because these items  are safety related and we need all the safety we can get in these little plastic dream cars!

There's a less costly $45 EMPI version (at cip1) of the CSP lower beam support bars. Looks like it would need another $6-8 worth of quality bolts. CSP is quality stuff but $300?

C26-413-151 - LOWER FRONT END SUPPORT TUBES W/CAPS PAIR

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...ductCode=C26-413-151

Yes---that's the cheaper one I mentioned above.   $45 vs. $300.  Giant difference  in price, I agree.  

Greetings from Mexico !   My VS came with a 5/8" front sway bar. I really liked that it worked noticeably well. It had been installed upside down so It wouldn't hit the bumper brackets. I flipped it back over. Now it was hitting the bumper brackets but I could hear it only when I went over some bumps or hard turns. I looked at replacing it with one that was a straight bar with splined ends and levers that attached to the lower trailing arms. The support brackets were to be attached to the torsion bar tubes.

One day while I had all the torsion bars out I installed the trailing arms and the sway bar. Grabbed a big piece of pipe and slipped it over the trailing arm and pried it up and down to watch the action on both sides. I did this with one wheel on and down on the ground and also up.  Just to see visually what's going on. The area where the sway bar hit the bumper bracket was not severe and (in my opinion) actually helped to stabilize it's own movement such as the replacement sway bar would that I was pondering buying.

My decision was to leave the bumper brackets as is and split a 4" length 1.5" rubber hose and install it on the bumper bracket with two hose clamps.  This seemed to slightly improve the performance of the sway bar and it got rid of the banging  noise  generated by it hitting the bumper brackets.  I left the sway bar in the right-side-up (correct) position because it actually conformed to the trailing arms better.  Anyway, that was my remedy. My car was IRS and the rear sway bar worked just fine as installed...............That's my two cents.............Bruce