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I’ve been meaning to write this for a while. When I started down the madness trail I spent a lot of time on this site lurking and researching. I kept hearing some things repeatedly. One of those things was to really think about what you wanted before you jumped, and the other was that no component existed in a vacuum. Everything effects everything else.  Taking into account how you planned to drive, what roads you liked, how much your partner was part of the experience, etcetera, were where you started. Lately I been reflecting on how much folks like Danny, Alan, Stan, Jimmy, Gordon, Michael, El Guapo, and the whole host of characters here had influenced how I went about making my choices.

It came back to me again when reading some recent discussions about engine character, dyno sheets, and horsepower and torque curves.  As well as the ever recurring threads about transmissions; what gearing to get, and whether to go 4 or 5 speed, Subaru or VW.  Some of our wiser folks talked about identifying the intended use, and thinking about that when putting together a cohesive package, with the emphasis on selecting engine and trans as a unit.

I thought it might be useful (or at least fun) to lay out my thinking when I selected what I did for my coupe. That being a Subaru 2.5 from OutFront with a Z head modification and stand alone engine management, a Rancho Pro-Suby transaxle with a 3.88 final drive and Quaife type limited slip dif, and Vintage 190 wheels w/tires at a roling diameter of 24.5”, and a Vintage Speed shifter.

Well, how did I get here? It started with a desire to have the coupe be as year round a vehicle for the Pacific Northwest as possible. That meant good heat and AC, and this was attained a little more easily with the Subaru. I also wanted to have electronic engine management and a less mechanically noisy engine in a coupe because my wife would come along for the ride a lot of the time. I wanted the car to be quick, fun on the back roads with a nod to GT use.  There are great roads locally, and some truly great roads farther away requiring some highway travel.  So in a nutshell, fast, all weather, reatianing GT use with a modicum of civility.

Here is some of the research into the Subaru engine.  I didn’t know much about them, though I had a ton of VW AC experince and lots of motorcycle engine race experience, both 2 and 4 stroke. I was a SuperFlo certified CycleDyne operator at one point in life. So I looked up a dyno sheet for a stock EJ 253 2.5 SOHC Subaru and found the chart below with power, torque, and VE.  This is as designed and at the crank, but some actual pulls I found bore it out.

Now this is an engineers smoothed curve for the engine as designed, but it served nicely for my purposes. One of the most important things to look at when evaluating these sheets is the shape of the curves and the area under the curve. The more area under the curve, the better. The flatter the curve the less racy the engine feels, but the more forgiving it is to drive. As much as I liked riding my 125cc two stroke GP bike, keeping it on the boil was very demanding. Its power curve looked like a witch’s hat with 5 hp below 9,000 RPM, 41 hp at 11,500, 20 hp at 13,000 and rings scattered all over the crankcase at 14,500. Fun, engaging, but not streetable.

Anyway, I wanted to make a few modifications using my experience modifying 4 stroke race bike engines. I had found that freeing up the breathing and raising the compression ratio, while keeping the stock cam profiles, typically resulted in a very flexible engine that was easy to ride quickly due to a broad torque curve, a progressive power curve, and plenty of area beneath both. It would esentially take the same shape curves as stock and add area underneath.  With the right power to weight ratio this type of motor could head for redline quickly, too.

I taked to John at OutFront Motorsprts and that approach was just what he had in mind with his Z-head conversion. It does exactly what I wanted, and he’s mapped a whole bunch of them, so the EFI and ignition curves should be spot on. These changes should keep the dyno curves shown above essentially the same shape, but move them nearer the top of the page for more area underneath. I’m over simplifying a bit here, intake and exhaust will influence the smoothness of those curves for instance, but you get the drift. I’ll also inject a bit of reality here: I don’t really think it’ll be a 200 hp motor, more likely an optomistic 185 at the crank, but that’ll be plenty for this chasis. John originally came up with this combo for sandrail use where bags of torque, good power, and a nice overun are really useful.

So now we have an engine with a torque curve that peaks smoothly from 3500 - 5500, and one should be within 10% of peak torque from 2300 to 5800 RPM, and within 20% of peak from 1,500 to 6500 RPM. The HP curve is very progressive and gets serious at about 3500 RPM and peaks at 6000 rpm. Red line is at 7000 and power falls off very progressively. It looks like an engine that should usable and entertaining.

So we’ve got the engine sorted and we have a pretty good idea what it’s character will be like.  Now onto the transmission where we explore a few things.  First off is the 4 speed vs 5 speed or even 6 speed debate.  There’s a general feeling that more is better and that having more ratios, and shifting more to take advantage of them, will be faster.  To which I say, “Maybe.” Going back to that RS 125 it had 6 speeds and 8 would have been really nice, because that engine had no flexibility.  The engine we have here is very flexible and so it doesn’t really require a lot of gears.

Shifting a lot doesn’t necessarily make things faster (it sounds faster, but…).  I’m going to take a moment here and share a story to illustrate that point. Back in my motorcycling days I was an instructor/control rider for track days. We’d put new guys out on the track follow the leader style to teach them the line and let them get a feeling for it while keeping speeds low. Then we’d pull them in and talk about being smooth and hitting their marks. We ask them to go back out and ride the track as best they can concentrating mainly on their corner entry speeds, BUT they can’t use the brakes and they must stay in 3rd gear. No shifting, no braking!

After that session and another break with a talk they’re sent back out and allowed to shift and brake as much as they want. Then we break for lunch. We’ve had timing transponders on the bikes the whole time and at lunch we take a look together. Guess what, almost all the fastest times were set without shifting and braking. Most of these guys were pretty sure they knew exactly what they were doing, but at real speed shifting takes attention and time, while threshhold braking is a mighty skill to master.  Obviously with instruction, practice and dedication they could improve those skills and they would (and did) get faster, but there’s a reason CRTs are baned in Fomula 1 (and it’s not just time saved by shifting, of course).

Back in our world I had an engine that didn’t require alot of gearing in a lighter car. So personal preferences took precedent. I knew that what I wanted a very mechanical experience, analog as they say. I like the feel of a well set up Porsche or VW transaxle. Take out the slop and set it up right. I even like the gear noise.  Some cable shifters are great, but they still feel ‘cable-y’ to me (I'll admit that some of them are quite good indeed). I didn’t want to go that route.  Research again, and talking to Greg suggested a call to Rancho to look at their Pro-Suby transaxle. I talked with the guys there, got the ratios and then went to work seeing what that would look like with the engine I had cooking.

Here is a transmission graph with the actual ratios, final drive, and wheel diameter entered shown side by side with the dyno sheet. It looked like this transaxle would work great with this engine. Fast backroad work would be a mostly 2nd and 3rd gear thing. A 6,000 RPM shift from 2nd to third would happen at 58 mph and drop the RPMs to 3800 right near the enginge’s torque peak. That next wave could be ridden to 6,000 RPM in third all the way to 95 MPH. Conversely 3rd could be taken down to 30 MPH and it would still be within 10% of peak torque. Given the weight of the car I think that’ll do nicely. I called Rancho back and decided to add the Quaife type differential to keep it hooked up in the rain (it does rain here sometimes).

The last piece of all this is the shifter and again research here confirmed that a Vintage Speed shifter was the way to go. I made my own laminated wood shift knob, too, because all the places you touch the car are important and it makes me smile.

And there you have how I settled on a drive train.  I’m sure I made some mistakes, but I’m OK with that because I made the effort to really think it through. Besides, I wouldn’t be where I am now if I hadn’t made all the mistakes I’ve made thus far. I hope this proves usefull to someone.

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Last edited by Theron
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I admire your thought process and attention to detail. The Magnum of mine that Carey is converting to Suby power will be using my third Rancho Pro-Suby transaxle. I have loved the first two and expect good things form the third going in the Magnum. It is my first with the Quaife TBD. In my experience the planning and building process is the most enjoyable followed closely by enjoying the finished product. Carey told me they are starting the conversion this week and will be removing the Mazda 13b rotary engine and type 1 IRS 4 speed transaxle. I believe I have it sold but if anyone is wanting a very strong running Mazda 13b street ported Holley 650 cfm 10K rpm engine and transaxle to go into a VW based car it could be available if the current potential buyer flakes on me. Message me if interested.

The pro Suby has gearing to match the power band of the Suby engine. They are built in a Rhino case as well and have a special gusset plate welded across the bottom for extra strength. The Pro- Suby has HD side plates both sides as well. I believe the Pro-street trans is built in a regular case and isn't built with new shafts , weddle gears and shift forks.  The price is high as well, currently north of $7K for the one I bought last year. The first one I bought 3-4 years ago was $5500.00 . The Pro-Suby has welded third and fourth gears I believe. I know their website doesn't give a ton of info. Carey would know the exact specs of the Pro-Suby but not sure he knows about the regular Pro-street.

Puma rancho Pro comp rhino trans.2Puma rancho Pro comp rhino trans.4

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Here's a picture at Greg's shop of mine set up for IRS. My notes from conversations back when say everything inside the case is new and from Weddle. 3rd & 4th gear are welded. I have something with the shift forks, but I can't read my handwriting. The case is the Rhino with extra gusseting. The differential is a torsen gear type, in my case a Peloquin unit, and that necessitated a 3.88 final drive. That was how they designed it, so a 3.44 was never really in the mix.  It's basically a brand new type 1 based transaxle with ratios selected to suit a Subaru power band.

Others have also used this set-up on big Type 4 motors with great success because of the similar torque curve.

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The 3rd and 4th gears from Weddle aren't welded any more if they are in fact made by Weddle. The synchro hubs are splined as are the gears themselves, so no welding is necessary. If they are old VW(and they did have those ratios) then they certainly need the welding.

I can post pictures of the Weddle splined gears if you'd like, I have a couple of them.

The custom 1-2 main shaft(and accompanying idler gears) and the 3-4 is about $2000 just in parts. Add the Rhino case, TBD diff, bearings, and Ring and pinion and you've got quite an expensive box there. About $4500-5000 in parts for the whole thing, plus careful assembly.

Nice write-up, Michael. It ALL matters, parts and pieces working together.

Last edited by DannyP
@DannyP posted:

I can post pictures of the Weddle splined gears if you'd like, I have a couple of them.



Hell, yeah. I love that stuff!  I often disassemble stuff that's perfectly fine just so I can see what's in there!

And, thanks for the compliment. I figured the write-up was a pay-it-forward way of thanking guys like you that have helped me get a handle on things. I can hardly wait to sample the finished product!

@Jimmy V. posted:

I relation to an above post. The 2nd Pro-Suby transaxle I bought was used in my Puma with the monster 2.8L type 4 engine and it was a perfect match to it's power band and torque.

I asked because the name, Pro-Suby, doesn't really tell us anything.  It's a made up name like Freeway Flyer, which also tells us almost nothing.  Thanks again Jimmy for posting the transmission tag, because that is what tells us what is in a Rancho Pro-Suby!

Since I am using the same Weddle 3.11/1.93 1st/2nd in my Spyder box, but with a 1.32 3rd and a .94 4th, that must make mine a close ratio Pro-Suby!  

I got curious and looked up my notes on the gear ratios in my Rancho built Sub box.

They are:  3:90 R & P,  3.16 for 1st, 1.88 for 2nd,  1.29 for 3rd,  .97 for 4th and .73 for 5th.   Compared to yours Ll-Rick, these are pretty close.  Looks like I'm a little lower in the compounded ratios until 5th then I go a little higher. Depending on what tire diameter I end up with could change these a bit.

Greg sent me some photos of the rear suspension today.  It looks like the rear suspension is pretty much wrapped up.  Now onto the front !

I found an APP for my iPhone that will log G-Force.  Been playing with it and I think it will work when I go to measure the lateral G-force of this car on a skid pan driving in a 30ft radius circle, increasing speed until break-out occurs. Goal right now is 1+ G's.

It would be nice to see the difference between the Verdestien's and, say, Perrelli P-4's.  has anyone here recorded the rubber Durometer number for the Verds (sportrax5's)?   Bruce

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LI-Rick.....Yes that's why it has taken so long. That of finding someone to agree to doing this. It's sort of like a one-off with jigs ?  

When I was asking the Rancho staff about doing a VW transaxle for the Suby engine, we were discussing the gearing, the LSD, and the HD parts, then adapting all this to the Suby engine.   They suggested going to a Suby transaxle since the car was a mid-engine Spyder.  The estimate came out less bucks and I'd end up with a 5 sp as the cream on top.  Also no special flywheel, no adaptor plate and a regular Suby starter right on top of the transaxle. I also like that the shift linkage will not be cables, even though Greg has a great cable shifter now.  Mine will have a simple tubular rod to provide the shifting. The new frame arrangement lends to having a really nice, uncomplicated exhaust system Under the engine and transaxle, converging in the rear-center.  I just hope it's not an ear buster ! Ha Ha !

A near future concern is the Stinger ECU.  I understand that it doesn't  have the control for cold-start warm-up. Although this is a short term period during warm-up only, I'm not sure I like that and may change over to something else.  What to use instead, I don't know yet,  but that will have to come later.  We don't know what size wheels/tires will fit yet either so that will get worked out later as well.  Lots of stuff to do yet but we're making progress........Bruce

That rear suspension is EXACTLY what I was going to do. A simple(but effective) 3 bar, as used on the early Corvette. I like the shorter/angled upper arm, which gives more negative camber with suspension compression and droop.

Are there going to be anti-sway bars?

I've no idea the durometer of my Vreds. The treadwear rating is 300, and believe me, they are sticky. But they don't wear like autocross(200) or track only(100-150) tires. I haven't heard them squeal yet. The Pirelli 4000 squealed like crazy, they were pretty hard and durable, but rated at 320 or 400 or something like that. Go figure?

EDIT: My winter parking tires are my old Bridgestone RE960 Pole Positions. They are rated at 400 treadwear. They were better than the Pirellis. The Vredestein Sportrac5 are safely stored away out of light and cold in my dry 50 degree basement. And they really are all that, a total game changer.

Last edited by DannyP

Agreed.  Those Sportracs really are incredible.

... but they are no more. Availability was always bad, and tire makers switch up the entire lineup every couple of years, apparently because they are run by Jr. High girls.

Vredestein Sprint Classics are the only choice left in a sub-$200/tire, summer-compound, 15" tire, and unfortunately - they're oddball sizes. 185/70R15, 205/70R15, and 215/60R15 at TireRack. No 185/65R15, no 195/60R15, nothing for the Spyder guys.

I gave up. I'm in the process of going to 16" wheels on my car. The selection for summer tires in 195/55R16 isn't deep, but there are at least a few choices. Overall diameter is the same ballpark as a 195/60R15 (24.2"- 24.4").

This has necessitated a complete conversion of the brakes from wide 5 to late Porsche dilled 5/130s. This is not the direction anybody goes, but I found a setup that will look butch and should perform better.

CB makes a 5/130 brake kit with press-in lugs and aluminum front hubs. I haven't figured out what they're using for a rotor, but they're slotted and drilled. I'm not using the ghia brakes that came with the kit - I'm running Wilwood 4-piston calipers (assuming "vDub Engineering" actually makes another batch of adapter brackets). This should get me to Danny P- level braking. The rear kit uses a steel hub with a 914/6 brake rotor and the e-brake caliper everybody uses. For some reason, the lugs are "steel wheel length", so I'm $200 into new press-in Sway-a-Way lugs.

5784F13C-49B8-4565-B767-CA313E4A9DFB

I'm going to be running early 90s Porsche 16x5.5" spare-tire wheels. I've loved these wheels since I saw a picture of an Emory Outlaw with them. I was going to have Image Wheels in England make a set of 16x6"s, but I came up with a set of 6(?) on the Pelican website - a guy in the Netherlands had them. These wheels weigh 12-ish lbs each, the front brake/wheel set-up will be significantly lighter than the wide 5s, and the back about the same. I bought and shipped the wheels over, and have them at a wheel polisher to be stripped and brushed (not polished). I'll get them clear powdered and hopefully, the finish will be similar to my Coddington wide-5s.

I plan to keep those wide-5 wheels, since I'm a packrat, and because I bought them before Greg had done the Vintage 190s and I paid WAY too much for them. If/when I build Project X, I'll use them on that car.

I did all of this for 3 reasons - first is that since I've had the Vreds, I didn't think I could go back to A/S rubber ever again, and 15" summer rubber is super-frustrating. Second, the rear hub setup on my wide-5 brakes was weak - very, very weak. I'd spun the centers out of the wheels twice (there is a steel spline friction welded to an aluminum hub - it didn't work). A set of AirKewld rear brakes costs 1.5x much as the entire front/back/Wilwood CB 5/130 setup. Lastly, the wheels themselves are pretty cool, and very, very light.

I'll know more once I get everything on. The wheels aren't for everybody, but I think they're cool, and that's what matters. Here's a picture of one of the wheels on an Emory car:

18484D08-73D2-4484-BD16-0751DFE7DA61

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Last edited by Stan Galat
@550 Phil posted:

My 356 will have a 4-speed with a 3.44 R&P.  I'm determined to get the 3.44 R&P so I can do some highway driving.  I'm guessing from Michael's statement that an LSD is not available with a 3.44 R&P.  My Spyder has an LSD but it also has a 3.88 R&P.  So if you go 3.44, no LSD?

Pretty much correct. I have heard that the TBD from Paul Guard Transmissions can be made to work with a 3.44 final drive, but I'm not 100% sure.

I don't need the TBD, and since your Speedster isn't going to be as much of a corner carver. you really don't need it IMHO.

3.88 R&P with a 0.89 is the same ratio as a 3.44 with a 1.0 4th. If you use a 0.82 4th the drop from 3rd to 4th is WAY TOO wide. Such are the compromises of a 4 speed.

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