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A continuation of the discussion in "The New Beck Speedster". Since the topic changed to stereos.
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OK, I love sound. Probably because I grew up being influenced by my father. He's partially deaf in one ear, I have been tested and hear slightly above normal human range in one ear. Those old ultrasonic TV remotes, drive me crazy. I feel and hear the different buzzes in one ear.

But, back to the subject. My father is a video/sound/motion picture engineer. He has sound and video patents in several countries, written some of the THX standards and consulted for Ray Dolby and many more. So, I grew up hearing the difference. All that being said, my father has a 15 year old cheap stereo at home, a $65 vcr and drives a car with one working speaker. As he says, "Why would I want to reproduce my AM stations on anything expensive?"

I learned many things growing up, like speaker technology hasn't significantly changed in 50+ years. The nice stuff just got cheaper. Many big brand names are just that, big brand names and some big names actually produce less than optimum sound. For instance, try going into a professional home theater store and buy a set of Bose speakers. They won't carry them. Yet, go to Radio Shack and purchase an optimus deck and you just got a nice pioneer product with a different label.

All this being said, the most important part of you stereo is you. You are the one listening, speakers don't have to be expensive to sound good. Proper placement and mounting are also important factors. Ideally, you would like the speakers pointed at the occupants. A car is a far less than ideal listening enviroment, especially a convertible. An expensive EQ would not be money well spent, mainly because you can't equalize the cabin of an open top car.

The other important factor is equal sound range. A huge bass tube is worthless without some high and mid range speakers and vice versa. I often wonder about these guys driving around with massive bass setups. It's the equivalent of only pronouncing the last sillable of each word you speak. But, hey, some guys need the extra vibrations to maintain an erection. --upid --ittle -hits!

As far as stereo decks, thanks to mass-production, just about anything that outputs enough power for your selected speakers will work well. I once built a system for a friend of mine using a walkman, a single amp, and a few speakers. It sounded amazing. He took the walkman out of the car everyday and never got another stereo stolen.

In the end, whatever you build, you are the ultimate critic.
-=theron
(Message Edited 8/12/2003 4:39:33 PM)

 

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A continuation of the discussion in "The New Beck Speedster". Since the topic changed to stereos.
---
OK, I love sound. Probably because I grew up being influenced by my father. He's partially deaf in one ear, I have been tested and hear slightly above normal human range in one ear. Those old ultrasonic TV remotes, drive me crazy. I feel and hear the different buzzes in one ear.

But, back to the subject. My father is a video/sound/motion picture engineer. He has sound and video patents in several countries, written some of the THX standards and consulted for Ray Dolby and many more. So, I grew up hearing the difference. All that being said, my father has a 15 year old cheap stereo at home, a $65 vcr and drives a car with one working speaker. As he says, "Why would I want to reproduce my AM stations on anything expensive?"

I learned many things growing up, like speaker technology hasn't significantly changed in 50+ years. The nice stuff just got cheaper. Many big brand names are just that, big brand names and some big names actually produce less than optimum sound. For instance, try going into a professional home theater store and buy a set of Bose speakers. They won't carry them. Yet, go to Radio Shack and purchase an optimus deck and you just got a nice pioneer product with a different label.

All this being said, the most important part of you stereo is you. You are the one listening, speakers don't have to be expensive to sound good. Proper placement and mounting are also important factors. Ideally, you would like the speakers pointed at the occupants. A car is a far less than ideal listening enviroment, especially a convertible. An expensive EQ would not be money well spent, mainly because you can't equalize the cabin of an open top car.

The other important factor is equal sound range. A huge bass tube is worthless without some high and mid range speakers and vice versa. I often wonder about these guys driving around with massive bass setups. It's the equivalent of only pronouncing the last sillable of each word you speak. But, hey, some guys need the extra vibrations to maintain an erection. --upid --ittle -hits!

As far as stereo decks, thanks to mass-production, just about anything that outputs enough power for your selected speakers will work well. I once built a system for a friend of mine using a walkman, a single amp, and a few speakers. It sounded amazing. He took the walkman out of the car everyday and never got another stereo stolen.

In the end, whatever you build, you are the ultimate critic.
-=theron
(Message Edited 8/12/2003 4:39:33 PM)
Theron,
So if it isn't an equalizer that will divide and deliver the sound 'ranges' of each speaker, is it a fader or what? My recollection of the stereo in my Acura was that you could sort of 'direct' the various speakers to perform more than some of the others? At least I thought that was what I was hearing...

The cruel wrinkle in newer auto stereo technology is that all the controls, buttons and sorry-ass excuses for knobs are so damned small and the print used to label their respective functions is smaller still!
MM
Theron, I really like your fresh approach to sound reproduction. Using a walkman is a great idea. You could even upgrade whenever you wanted. Just plug in a new gadget - mp3, cd player, itty-bitty tuner, whatever.

I plan on putting a completely hidden system in my Speedster - when I get one ;-). I've seen systems with wireless RF remotes, so you can put the tuner/cd/whatever in the trunk, with nothing visible in the car at all.

I've been thinking about a concealed subwoofer box in the rear seat area, kinda like your raised deck, but with woofer and midrange speakers facing forward, covered with acoustically transparent but optically opaque fabric that matches the interior (so no one can see the speakers).

The only problem is tweeters. You really need line-of-site from your ears to the tweeters or you loose highs. They would have to be mounted up front, perhaps hanging just below the dash on either side of the steering wheel for proper stereo imaging for the driver (the passenger doesn't care about such things). Maybe if they're mounted far enough back, they wouldn't be seen from the outside, but they would point at the driver sitting in the seat.


(Message Edited 8/12/2003 5:06:43 PM)
Like Theron I'm abit of a car audio nut. As you can see with the install in my speedster.

I suggest you purchase a copy of The Car Stereo Cookbook:

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0070580839/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/002-4237056-4628847?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link

It contains great chapters on speaker placement, component selection and helps you design a system for your taste and budget.

Keep in mind that the higher the frequency the more "directionaly" sensitive the sound produced is. I'm not sure if that was a word but hopefully you understand.

BTW: Paul an EQ is meant to "flatten" the frequency response. A crossover is used to direct certain freq.'s to sets of speakers. For example my 3 subs are x-over at 100hz and below then my 6-1/2 mids are x-over at 100Hz to 5000Hz the the tweets are 5000 Hz and above. Useing a x-over and multiple driver lets you produce much clearer and louder sound with less power.

My $.02,

Jerome
Can you guys actually hear your stereos at highway speeds...I mean clearly? I sure as heck can't hear mine...what with all the wind/fan/carb intake & exhaust noise. Around town it's okay. I have to admit that nothing beats (for me) a drive along the beach....about 85-90 degrees....top down and the best of the Beach Boys on the stereo. Yaaaaawhooooooo.
Ron
I love music, great stereos and am a fan of "high-end" audio when it's done right. Having owned several cool cars over the years, I've found even "luxury car" audio to be sadly lacking...but, owing to the unrecoupable expense of upgrading, I've not outfitted any of my autos with a "killer system."
Now, to my Speedster. Were I to build my car over again today, the only thing I would change is to delete the radio altogether. It was $500 (Blaupunkt AM/FM/CD, 4 speakers) I could have spent in the engine bay.
I drive 99% of the time with the top DOWN. Not only does that make the radio hard to hear, it just doesn't sound very good even when you CAN hear it. Great car audio in an open-topped car is an oxymoron.
And high-priced, after-market, stereo systems in cars add nothing to the resale value. At least, that's been my experience.
I never had a problem hearing all the audio in my speedster. Top down, at freeway speeds, with traffic, no problem. If you can't hear the stereo, than something is wrong with the system, probably speaker placement. Think of your speaker as a garden hose, with the mid and upper range sound as water. These speakers need to be aimed at the target, your ears. The object is to saturate the listeners head with water, if the hose is pointed at you ankles, you are at best getting a few drips on your ears.

Of course this is not true of lower bass fequencies, they usually sound best when situated where they can bounce off a corner of the interior. But proper bass, without dead spots, is a whole other discussion.

There isn't much room in a speedster, so I had to make do with the placement of the tweets. There was a noticeable drop in the highs when I made a right hand turn using my left hand. This was because my left arm, would come between the tweeter and my head. Sad, I know, but it bothered me. After a while, I subconsciously started tucking my elbow in, so the effect wouldn't be so bad.

-=theron

(Message Edited 8/12/2003 7:54:08 PM)
I once saw a magazine with stereos that were replicas of 1950's style radios, but with modern internal components and a slot to slide your CD's into....I plan to use something like this so that the stereo looks correct for the period and is today's technology. But I have no clue on speakers or placement.....is this something we can rely on car builders to tell us?
Going back to John's statement about no resale value. The cool thing about aftermarket stereo equipment is that, if done right, you can transfer the stuff from old vehicle to new vehicle. For example: My Dakota is the third vehicle to house the same 2 - 12" subs, amps and crossovers. And because I made no permanent modifications, all that junk can go into a fourth and the stock system can be restored into the Dakota.

It all depends on how crazy you get with the install. Just like Speedsters its a cool expensive hobby.

Jerome
Paul had mentioned Crutchfield as a source.

I use Crutchfield to do reaserch on a perticular product and then order from either...

Crutchfield

www.sounddomain.com <- Almost all the stuff in the Speedster came from here.

www.etronics.com

And for speaker building stuff: Parts Express

Just FYI,

Jerome
I'm beginning to 'get it' now... So all this speaker stuff will still work jus' fine with my eight track!
I can see I'm going to have to build a small replica(ha-ha) of the Eifel Tower to accompany my faux roll bar and tuck the tweeterzzz in there so they're pointing at my ears. Then I have hold the steering wheel a different way as well? It's beginning to sound like the contortions I go through trying to use a cell phone in Benicia!

Good post guys,
Thanks
MM
I also 90% of my car audio from etronics. Great price and service. I have a pioneer 65 watt RMS per cahnnel amp to a JBL 6.5" component speaker system and a powered bazooka on the back seat. The bazooka is nice because it is easily removed for shows.
I hear this system fine at all speeds. I would not say that classical music would be ideal under these circumstances. But I prefer blues and rock usually. Jazz is so-so on this system at speed.
Paul, I still remember 8 tracks. I took one apart, in a futile attempt to fix it...impossible! Those darn things were complicated.
I remember, back when I was in high school, a friend had a 56 Chevy convertable with a 45 turntable (that's small record for you younger members)mounted under the dash. Of course, he could only play it while the car was stationary and everyone stayed still.
Ron
Ron,

I am dating myself again but a 45 player was a factory option on some cars, Mopars I think, in the 50's. It now has become a much desired option to have on a showcar of that era. You could use it while driving,(they claimed)but never rode in one. If you see one at a swap meet and it is reasonable, buy it. A primo investment for your old age.
Anyway, I opted to go with no audio on my JPS. Figured I probably couldn't hear it anyway and the looks of speakers in the door wasn't appealing, but that's my bias. I've got a Ford Escape with the Mach something audio system, sub woofers ,etc but other than playing some cd's once in awhile I leave it off. My hearing has deteriated in the past few years so maybe if I get a hearing aid I may get back into the audio scene, Bruce
Bruce, can you imagine driving around with a record player going....hit one good sized pot hole and zzziiipppp goes the needle across the record. I find that I don't miss the music in my IM. The sounds the car makes is enough for me...yet, when I hop in my Ranger pick up, the first thing I do is turn on the stereo/radio.
Ron
Actually the 45 rpm players worked pretty well. Sound must have been typical AM radio quality - but we didn't know any better then. Must have been seriously damped as I don't remember it skipping on the other hand it was in a whale w/baby buggy suspension so we all just sorta floated. Had a friend who had one in a '60? Impala. Wowed the chicks
Jerome-

What kind of sub are you using? Sealed, Ported, Aperiodic, Infinate baffle? I doubt you're using a Bandpass sub....

Also, try adjusting your low end crossover dowon to 70 - 80Hz if you can. This is the threshhold at which the human ear can decifer direction... Thus allowing you sub to work within it's best range, and not to draw attention to itself.

The subs are Rockford Fosgate RFZ3808 - 8" - 8 Ohm.

I went with the 3808's because they required the smallest enclosure volume I could find, .1-.3 cu-ft/sub sealed, .5-1 cu-ft/sub ported. The box is a sealed enclosure slightly over 1 cu-ft. So .33 cu-ft/sub minus the volume the speaker takes up should be right in the sweet spot.

I have found that 12" and maybe 10" sound best at around 80 Hz and 10" to 8" sound better a little higher. I'm not done tweeking yet. I like to tweak in a system after driving around with it for a while. So I have some more work to do since I have put a grand total of about 40 miles on my car.

What sounds best in the driveway doesn't allways sound best on the road. That's when you need the programmable EQ.

Check out my files section, I posted a system diagram a while back.

Jerome
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