Special Edition FI Engine Question

Carey,

Could you provide more details on the fuel injected engine you are gearing up to offer? Is it a US spec engine or a Brazilian spec engine? I'm trying to understand the specs and parts availability. It sounds promising.

Thanks,

-Jeff

Air Cooled or Watercooled??

I supply some of Special Editions engines for the more exceptional builds using my RAT/SDS EFI system and these include some twin plug options as well.

We are also gearing up to offer a 550 package that uses the Porsche Boxster engine and tranny with some of my developments applied to that engine as well. These would have of course be FI equipped.

Special Edition also creates some watercooled VW based engines for their cars, but I don't have any details on those... I am sure Carey will be along shortly to answer the questions directly.

Porsche Boxster engine? Why Jake, you mean to tell us you're dabbling in ugh....ahem.....h2o cooled power.....OH THE HUMANITIES....I...I can't type anymore just now. I'm getting all verklempt.

~WB

Worse than that.....it's NOT a Wasserboxer.

It's in in-line 4-banger, a la Golf GTI.

Sorry for the lack of clarity in the original question. I was particularly interested in the VW/Audi 1.8L that is referenced on the Special Edition website.

That being said, it's about time someone applied the Boxster drivetrain. Woohoo. Looking forward to more details on that as well. That will be on ass kicking 550.

-Jeff

The Boxster development I am doing isn't by choice... The engine has never been enhanced with performance components and the engines are not even really designed to be rebuilt..

The Boxster is a new market with cars rolling off the assembly line today that not even Porsche technicians are trained to work on... We have forethought..

The Boxster engines into replicars was not our first idea, only after coupling with Carey and Special Edition did we think about installing the entire rear console of a Boxster under a 550 or a Speedster.. Now that is occurring and puts a stock 200 HP Porsche engine with Motronic FI into the car.

I will never have the same feelings for the Boxster as I do the aircooled power plants, but the Boxster will provide forward momentum for my company to continue to develop aircooled engines many years after most aircooled companies have gone to the wayside...

When Porsche stops supporting the Boxster, my company www.flatsixinnovations.com will be the only group with first hand developmental experience with the engine, having already made our own assembly tools and performance parts.

The only thing I like about the Boxster development and work is the fact that the engine is absolutely unknown, less than 1/2 dozen people have ever rebuilt a Boxster engine in the US!

Saints preserve us, the Boxter has come to this: The disposable Porsche? I have heard of some Japaneese motorcycles referred to as "disposable" but a Porsche? My day is ruined!

Jeff (and Jake, too!)

Chris and I picked up a flared Speedster kit just before Carlisle (quite literally) which we'll be building up over the Winter.

Chris has already made the statment that it'll be at the next Carlisle - whew!!

While visiting with Kevin and Carey Hines in the Special Edition Carlisle tent, they showed us their new Speedster with the 1.8 litre Audi/Golf engine in the rear.

We loved it!

THAT's what we'll be putting into the new build. Just getting the pan stripped now, and already looking at options to get the water from the back to the front and back and ways to cleanly terminate the ends to make it serviceable.

But first, I'm repairing the rust here and there on the tunnel and headset with new metal welded in and then start the refurb process. Along with that we'll be looking at what we can do to make sure the pan/body combo can handle at least 200hp and 200 ft. lbs. of torque and just build everything with that in mind as we go along.

Sounds like fun, ya?

Stay tuned!

Gordon (with Hans and Fritz watching over my shoulder)

The Boxster engine is a flat 6 as is the 911.

I don`t know where the 'inline 4', and 'not a waterboxer' comments are coming from?

The name itself BOXSTER suggests a boxer engine! no?

Maybe a bit more homework should be done before posting such rubbish.

I can assure you the boxster engine is repairable in a German shop.

The question is if you buy all new parts individualy from Porsche it's probably cheaper to buy a short engine from them.

There will definately be an aftermarket demand when these engines wear because Porsche parts are so expensive.

Will cheaper parts be as good? no!

My 2 Euro cents

Nick

The boxster powered 550 is a special project Jake and I are working on. Not sure if it will ever get to market, or it will just be a toy in my garage... time will tell...

We do 2 different types of FI on the aircooled motor, Jake's SDS and Pat's Quick Tune.

Our watercooled VW I4 stuff has been a mixed bag, depending on the customer and what they want. Brazilian VW 8v Full Flex motors have been very popular in both the speedster and spyder. Other engines we've used have been US based 16v and 20v VWs, as well as some hybrids that we've come up with here. The last spyder I did was a GLI 20v bottom end/head, with an Audi TT manifold, 034 DBC throttle body, and K04 turbo.
Most of the Brazilian engines have the stock Bosch multiport injection, but the car at Carlise had Extrudabody's ITB's (Individual Throttle Bodies).
Either use stock Marelli pico injectors, which are available most anywhere.

For the Brazilian flex motors, many of the parts cross over to various US VW parts. There are some Brazilian specific parts, but we stock most of those here. If for some reason I do not have it, it is only 2-3 days away via EMS.

The nice thing about the VW/Audi motors is that virtually all the watercooled bellhousings are the same so almost anything will work.

Relax Nick,

If you go back and read carefully, you'll see that Gordon was answering the last sentence of Jake's first post.

Everyone here knows that the Boxster engine is flat and water cooled.

OK I see, and am happy now!

Nick

Good,

I'm happy that you're happy :)

Thanks for the help, Larry...

I think I'll just go back to building my car...

With the non-Boxer (without the "T") engine...

Nick,
Porsche has discouraged the rebuild of the 986/987 as well as the 996 and 997 engines dating back more than a decade.

A "German Shop" can't rebuild the engine if they can't buy the assembly tools from Porsche to do the job and if they can't buy the parts for the engine. Porsche has kept these items out of circulation to stimulate sales of their "New" engines for these cars.

Porsche took lessons on building their "disposable" cars from Mitsubishi, the Boxster and 996 engines couple both German and Japanese Engineering. When this occured Porsche actually started making money again.

It took me 3 months to source a set of main bearings for a 2.5L Boxster engine.. Lots of people list them, but no one has them.... I ended up having to use an internal connection at PCNA to source the bearings for me..

We have had to MAKE all our own parts and tools just to assemble the engines. This includes billet connecting rods, pistons and even gaskets. We are now making main, rod and intermediate shaft bearings- because we HAVE TO.

trust me, there is no rubbish here. Until you have assembled a Boxster engine, please do not refer to my post as "Rubbish". Its only common courtesy.

Anyway, you'll be reading about our Boxster and 996 engine developments soon in Excellence.. The writer is coming to do the story next week :-) Excellence doesn't feature "Rubbish".

I believe the Boxster/550 hybrid will revolutionize the Porsche replicar..

My Boxster S had a rear main seal leak at like 30K and the solution was a complete engine replacement by the dealer. IIRC the techs said they were not authorized to make any major repairs on that motor. Just FYI.

I'm working on a tube chassis in a steel 356. 2.7 boxster motor an a 5 speed mid engined. What are you going to do for electronic stand alone? The original computer really has a lot of other controls it wants to do. Throttle by wire or cable?? lots to think about.

The stock Boxster ECU can be used. Many of the abilities it has will be maintained including ABS and traction control. The ECU si self learning and can maintain significant engine modifications without any reprogramming. In fact the guys that are doing X51 engine conversions into Boxsters are installing 3.4, 3.6 and even 3.8L engines into Boxsters that originally had 2.5L engines. The stock ECUs are being utilized (without reflashing)with this engines that are over 1,000cc larger than stock. No issues.

Any of the inputs or outputs of the Motronic unit can be manipulated, its just a matter of ECU interface which isn't hard with the proper software. We have had to tackle much more difficult challenges with the 986 engine and we still have others to address.

In a worst case scenario a Motec ECU would be utilized and would function with all the stock sensors. Some applications will be simpler if this approach is utilized.

Right now, we have bigger fish to fry, including getting the entire rear suspension console along with the tranny into a 550.

As Carey stated, not even Porsche factory trained technicians are allowed to work on the 986 engine at the dealership level. They are not trained to accomplish any un-scheduled maintenance.

The company I used to work for sold a lot of computer storage to Porsche back in the late 90's and they sent a bunch of IT and design techies over here to try out some of their CAD design applications before they bought our hardware. They were here about a week and we went out a couple of nights for dinner.

The designers told me that dealer service and tooling costs were such that it made ANY major (and quite a lot of what I would consider minor) engine repairs impractical. In addition, the engines were built to exacting specs (yeah, I believe that one, too...) on semi-automated assembly lines using very specialized tooling, both robotic and human based, which could not be economically reproduced at the dealer level.

Put that all together and they are basically doing exactly what Jake and Carey have said: Almost all of the car is considered disposable. ANY repair that requires engine removal is, by default, a full engine swap. Same for the transmission or any other major component.

At EOL time (the designed "End of Useful Life" - 12 years or 180,000 miles) the entire car should be scrapped as replacement/rebuild parts and tools will simply not be available.

I guess that you don't get your laptop fixed, you just get a new one. So it's the same scenario for your Boxster.

I guess there are at east several truths coming out of this thread; 1. Nick must have MUCH better Porsche dealerships over there in Germany where he lives.
2. We must have Much worse Porsche dealerships over here in America
3. Jake and I (and others on here) need to write more clearly to express out points of view, especially when we are right, and
4. Driving a car with simple, 50-year-old technology isn't so bad after all......

I like single part number replacement service, remove, toss out and replace part .....done !

Gordon,
I could not agree more with your 4 points!!!

The Boxster is a modern car, no modern cars are designed to live as long as a 30 year old car today, not even a Porsche.

The Porsche way of supporting the engines is fine today, but the 2.5 liter engines will not be supported by Porsche after 2011. The 2.7 will see the same demise of factory engine support and new engines very shortly following.

the engines are throw away.. the new 2009 models don't even have main bearings!! The engines use "cracked cap"technology to size the connecting rods, meaning they can never be rebuilt..

So, where does that leave nearly 60,000 early Boxster owners?? The Porsche plan has made the tools imppssible to find and the parts even more difficult, so NO ONE knows how to work on the engines internally. Dealership technicians only learn enough to change a timing chain, or tensioner so not even they can do the internal work.. BUT even if they could, who will take a 12 year old + car to the dealership for repair?? Thats asking to be raped!

After 3 years of development concerning this engine I have encountered SIX people in the US that have successfully rebuilt a Boxster engine. There are no pictures on line, there are no directives concerning the engines other than what Porsche has released and thats not enough.

Porsche and this stupid plan really pissed me off and thats why I agreed to begin the Boxster research.. Now we aren't calling around begging Porsche for parts- we are simply having them made in the USA and made better than factory parts.

The Boxster engine has 11 major issues from the factory, so it doesn't take a lot to make the engine much better. Some of them fail at less than 30K with Women drivers and some have had intermediate shaft failures in as little as 7K miles. I know one guy who has installed THREE Porsche engines and none have lasted more than 18K, all died with the same Intermediate Shaft Failure.. its so common that we just call it an "ISF" for short!

The factory does make good parts, this is still a Porsche, but even 911 engines benefit from our billet rods and forged pistons. The factory must build hundreds of thousands of engines so being able to produce high volumes of quality parts at an affordable price is a major concern. In a company as large as Porsche the accounting team is just as powerful as the engineering team.

Here we don't have that constraint, nor do we have or want those volumes.

All I know is in less than 4 years there will be 60,000 cars on the road with an engine that is understood by no one, thanks to the company who created it.

By the time the engine program is canceled, we'll be ready.. Hell we are now!

My brother has a 2002 Carrera with just over 30,000 miles that he bought new. The warrantee will soon expire. After reading this post, his thoughts were:
1.Is this a good time to swap for a Ford powered Panoz?
2. Keep it, hopefully with no problems for a long time... then replace the motor with a 350 cu.in. Chevy.

Any thoughts?

Wow, does your brother have a 2002 Carrera engine in his Beck Speedster or has this thread been beyond wildly highjacked?

-Jeff

Yep, it was Hijacked, but look at all that great information!

Anyone with Boxster questions can email them to me
info@flat6innovations.com

Heck, this is a mild hijack for this forum. At least we're still talking about cars.

I like chicken pot pie!

I'd a figgered that pineapple upside-down cake would be more your speed.

How about a chicken stuffed with pineapple upside down cake?

...what was that about a mild hi-jack?

Jake wrote:
> Porsche took lessons on building their "disposable" cars from
> Mitsubishi, the Boxster and 996 engines couple both German and
> Japanese Engineering. When this occured Porsche actually started
> making money again.

What's sort of ironic here is that you can rebuild most Mitsu consumer engines with no special tools, in a home garage.