Speciality auto sport

Have an attorney type a letter...

Something I don't get here guys- people give a guy (his company) deposits, he doesn't start their builds, is sued by some of these people and they are awarded some $440,000 damages, said company declares bankruptcy, the guy promises he'll build their cars and some of them believe him. 2? 3? years after the bankruptcy proceedings have relieved him of his obligations, more people have given him deposits (the quy now hasn't turned out a car in over 2 1/2? years; is he really that smooth?), and Roger, you still think this guy is really going to give you your money back?

 

You could try Bill's advice, but I think the only satisfaction you're going to get is with a plane ticket and a baseball bat... 

Roger,

 

A letter from an attorney, no matter how impressive the letterhead is, by itself has no muscle whatsoever unless backed up with documents in which he's acknowledged his debt to you...I hope that if you're thinking of a legal solution that you've saved any dated emails that support your position.

 

Since there's no criminal liability involved (intentional fraud) the threat of small claims court is like water off a ducks back and can indefinitely be ignored because he knows it would entail the expense of an out of state lawyer to represent you.

 

Even if you follow through and get a judgment in your favor it's SAS, not him personally, that owes you the money... and a mere name change in business identification lets SAS off the hook too!...He's been through this before and knows the ropes. Unfortunately if he's void of a conscience there's not a hell of a lot you can do... Something a good compassionate experienced lawyer will tell you too.

 

I hate to admit it but I admired the way Vito Corleone handled these kinds of situations!!!   

Roger,

 

I don't want to pile on. I'm really sorry for you, man. I don't think you'll get anything unless you get a lawyer involved, beyond writing a letter.

 

For $9K, I'd give it a go.

I am sorry for you roger that you have to go thru all this. I came across this and it would have helped you, maybe its posted already on this site if not it might be worth it for those who might take the step before committing. http://www.kitcar.com/consumer...e.html#anchor1041501

For CMC to be shut down in 1992 - it took the FL State Attorney General's action.  You want to be the first in line to collect as there surely won't be enough funds to pay back all.

Roger,

 

I suggest that you contact the Tennessee Attorney General's Office ASAP.  Try online first.  Google Tennessee Attorney General complaint.  They may have the appropriate complaint forms online for victims to download. Make your complaint as concise and factual as possible, and include a copy of any documents, contracts, etc. that you feel are relevant.  Keep a copy for your records. 

 

In my dealings with SAS, the threat of contacting the TN AG's Office seemed to be the only leverage I had.  If you hire a private attorney, he/she can get a judgment for you, whereas the AG's Office has the power to shut down his business.  

 

If you need additional help with this, PM me.  Best of luck and please keep the group informed as to any progress you make.

Its a shame people keep giving the scum

money time after time....

I hope he gets raided and all his tools and parts disappear. Who's in?

I guess we see how he can offer so much car for $30K-$36K.  That alone is seductive to a potential depositor.  In reality, counting deposits he fails to deliver on, it appears he receives closer to six figures per actual car delivered. 

 

Roger, years ago I was in a similar situation with a travel agent who took money from myself and 15 other people for a cruise. He never bought tickets and basically never intended to. We checked and found he had a list of judgements a mile long in civil courts with none of them satisfied. He just kept screwing new people who got more judgements.  We succeeded in convincing the county attorney that his actions of taking the money with no intention of getting the cruise tickets constituted fraud. He was prosecuted and one week before his trial, we magically got all our money back. This way he could tell the court he paid us back. The judge didn't fall for it and he did time.

     My point is, guys like this fear only one thing, jail time. Those judgements mean nothing to them as someone else above said. You need to convince the county prosecutor in the county he does business in that his action of repeatedly taking deposits with no effort to start building the cars show intent to defraud you of your money and prosecute him

     You may not get your money back but you'll get the satisfaction of seeing him sweat in a trial. As good as the baseball bat solution sounds and by God it is tempting, you will be the one in trouble not him.  See what you can do in criminal court.

Roger,

 

Please be aware that state and county District Attorney and Attorney General's Office operate differently in every state.  In California, you would contact a county District Attorney for relief in the county of the activity.  However, in Tennessee, you need to contact the Tennessee Attorney General's Office, which is a state, not county, office.

But yet they are still a sponsor on this site and have an ad for everyone to see?  I just don't get that.  

No to the baseball bat? getting lawyers and an Attorney General involved? What's happened to your good ol' 'merican sense of justice?

 

PS- Come on guys, I've seen a couple of documentaries on how you do thing. They were called "Walking Tall"...

I'm from (New) Jerzey.  First time you picked which knee cap you could spare - next time it was cement galoshes and the deep six. Lots just got a one way trip to the Jerzey pine barrens. The Gambino's had their own soldiers to do such work. 

 

I don't know, but those aluminum bats sure sound nice when you hit the sweet spot!

I hate these threads.  It makes me feel like some kind of bastard child and lessens my desire to come back to Carlisle or be part of this group.  I'm just saying....

I do not know anything for sure here, except that the few SAS cars I have seen (none new, all older) are very nicely done, and the owners are thrilled to have them.  So there is that.  Hoss need feel no pain here at all.  He is not the problem.  The problem is an inept or worse business man, well beyond his abilities at this point.  Best advice posted so far: work with Jim Kelly and seek appropriate legal action.  Nobody here is seriously considering the Joisey solution, as  satisfying as that may seem.

And I think it is a travesty that his ads keep appearing here.  Theron should be ashamed. Is that judging SAS guilty before a proper trial? Maybe.  And how much money are we talking about here to run these ads? Anybody know that?  Can't we survive without them?  Unless/until SAS shows it is legitimate, I would not wish to be party to his continued malfeasance. He pays money here because it pays him to do so -- attracts more suckers, sorry to say.

Oh Hoss, on the Contrary! You are one of the fortunate ones who got a very nice Tub!

There's no reason for you not to come to Carlisle because Steve does what he does.

Us old guys know you know Steve better than any of us and maintain a certain level of brand loyalty, we get it, but it seems a lot has happened in these past 11 years since 2004, and these new guys, who don't know, just seem to keep popping up here who were not so fortunate. Gonna happen, I guess. No reflection on you, partner!

BUT........

When you show up at the show, WE ARE HAPPY TO SEE YOU, and the last thought in anyone's minds is of you being a bastard child with regards to who built the RedMan!

 

I ain't a great writter but had to writ sumpthin!

 

~WB

I would never take a baseball bat to a thief...AGAIN!

Jim Kelly is the man you should talk to. He has more sense then most of us here, not to mention his first hand experience.

 

Now, John.  You know you would really miss Carlisle, and we would really miss you.

 

Who else would wear that hat? 

 

See you next May.

 

Bob

Hoss is da boss. 

Smoothly written 'stuff' always, ALWAYS, takes a back seat to the heart-felt expression of sincerity, empathy, and compassion.

 

I salute you Bill for putting into words what I'm sure we all feel for Hoss. 

X2 on what Wild Bill so nicely stated. 

 

I'd add, Hoss, Carlisle wouldn't be the same without you!

I missed Nolan's silver SAS this year at Carlisle!  Both are outstanding cars. Shame they don't roll out regularly and those in the wait cue get rightfully PO'ed (or worse).

Ditto what Hoss said and more I rather not say.

I understand why John and Nolan might feel "ostracized by association," and we certainly don't want that.  We can help the original poster without driving away people we would certainly miss.  Let's give our friends a break.

I think they're being a little sensitive, I don't see the CMC owners lamenting that their product is from a failed company that sent out kits with lots of issues.

The SAS products that have been finished are super. Likewise, the owners I know are super.

I too am baffled why we let them advertise on our site. Anybody coming to our site would think that we're endorsing them over IM, Special Edition, & Vintage, which we are clearly NOT.

> On Oct 4, 2015, at 8:18 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

^ I regret that I have but one "like" to give for this comment.

 

As far as I know, nobody got married to their builder while we weren't looking.

 

Even if the builder is a friend, present behaviour doesn't get a pass because they built some nice stuff along the way. I thought we were the friends and brothers. Nobody likes to see their brother step into a bad relationship without having all the information.

 

There's a guy here who is out 9 large. He'd like it back. I'd like to think we were more loyal to each other than to a third party. Sometimes you can't have it both ways.

John and Nolan:

 

I have just bought my fourth Intermeccanica (three directly from Henry).  If Henry started doing what SAS apparently is doing, why should I feel that I am being personally criticized?  It would have nothing to do with me.  People could crap all over the company, and I might even join in.  It would bother me to see a company act that way, but it would not reflect on me.

 

Your two SAS cars very well made, with some unique aspects to them.  You should be pleased with what you have, and not personally feel upset at what has happened with Steve Lawing.  It is certainly nothing to do with you two.

 

You two are needed at Carlisle - and on this site - the same as IM, Beck, JPS, Vintage, CMC and Special Edition owners who care for their cars and enjoy the company of like Speedster/Spyder owners.

 

That's my two cents worth, anyway.

Trust me when I add that CMC owners do not lament their cars coming from a failed company.  When their cars originated the company had not yet failed and, as I have read lately, even the larger volume producers make cars that leak oil like crazy so sometimes its just the luck of the draw. No one can help what happens to the company they purchase from be it a car, home, boat etc.  If you are satisfied with what you got then good for you. Isn't that what we are looking for anyway?

It's for the money.

Seems the almighty dollar has swayed his moral compass.

Hoss wrote: 

 

"I hate these threads.  It makes me feel like some kind of bastard child and lessens my desire to come back to Carlisle or be part of this group.  I'm just saying...." 

 

Why's that, John?  YOU, and Nolan, too, for that matter, managed to both buy absolutely superior cars (for really good delivered prices) which you both should be proud of.  Hell, you've even gotten niggling things fixed by SAS when you needed them for pretty good customer service in my book.  I certainly would love to have a finished SAS/SAW car.  Remember, I was the guy who wrote a very positive review of his shop and finished product back in the early 2000's after visiting the place with you.  You can find it on here in the archives - I can no longer find it on his (many) sites.  It appeared on his web site for years.  I would still do so for his past finished products, but not for his shop or the way he conducts business.  None of that in any way reflects on you or Nolan, as you both had positive experiences with him.  What DOES reflect on you both is your continued support for your friend in spite of overwhelming evidence that he is screwing customers left and right.  Kurt Scott warned about Steve Lawing back in the 1990's - looks like Kurt continues to be right.  

 

It's obvious from the many posts on here and elsewhere over the years that while he may be a great designer and builder, MANY people have tried to offer him advice to help him meet with his obligations to customers to fulfill their expectations and their paid-for orders.  Apparently, he hasn't taken heed of those suggestions and continues to fund his operations with "deposits" from unsuspecting customers who've been promised MUCH more than he can deliver.  When he cannot deliver on time per his signed contracts, he should return the money or face court action and penalties, just like other small business owners.  His approach is to PO customers, declare bankruptcy and take the easy way out, thereby screwing his customers even more.

 

I own a CMC which I bought just as they were winding down their telemarketing boiler-room which hooked a lot of unsuspecting customers.  I had to threaten them with Federal lawsuits, at my expense, (because they seemed to have the Florida Attorney General on their side) for mail and wire fraud and RICO before they finally (after 2-1/2 years) provided me with all of what I ordered (and even then, not everything, but I gave up over what was left).  They were first-class sleaze-bags.  EVERYONE says so, even me.  In the end, I built a pretty decent car out of the mess that was supposed to be an easy kit.  

Am I embarrassed that I was taken in by some sleaze-bags?  Of Course!  Was it my fault for following/believing their slick story (in multi-media ads, all over the place)??  Absolutely not.  Do I take it personally and get defensive about it?  Why the hell would I do that?  

 

If you guys want to come to Carlisle with your cars and hang out with a bunch of knuckleheads who just like 356 replicas and want to hang out together, fine - we would love to have you and we can all appreciate your fine cars.

 

You want to get on here and tell us how wonderful Steve Lawing is and how we should give him more slack so he can bilk more unsuspecting people out of their hard-earned money while giving them nothing but grief that we eventually hear about on here?  Please don't.

 

Great post, Vince.

Nolan---I guess I was wrong.  Had to happen, right?

 

Past is usually prologue.

 

Hang in there buddy.

Pretty cheap to put up a website that warns future customers..

If everybody that Googles his company sees your site.. He's gotta feel the pain..

I've seen it put a thief out of business..

 

I'll be doing this to get funds back and satisfaction from John at JPS soon  ;-)

       
       

Hey Roger,
Sorry to hear about your situation. If there is anything this group can do to help, please let us know.

Ted

I plan to drive from central California to Carlisle next May, if my "sorting" is complete.  I feel no guilt by association on threads such as these.  I'm not in business with SAS, I just had them build a car for me.  I'm not really much of a flag-waver, but I continue to feel obligated to inform my fellow car nuts about the business practices of a supplier of replicas to our membership.

 

As some of you will recall, I came to the defense of SAS on numerous occasions when they were building the car for me.  It was only on "delivery" that I began to realize the inconsistencies between the advertised product and the one I received.  I make no assertions towards the quality of cars owned by others.  My only practical(and painful) experience with SAS is with the Subi turbo car they built for me.  Caveat emptor!

I just saw the idea Dennis posted. I like the idea. The trick would be to beat him with search results ratings and stick to posting just the facts. I don't know about slander / liable but you'd need to be very careful.

I'd love to see this predator put in jail.

Ted