specialty autoworks liquid cooled design

I'm working up my wish list for my own car, and I like the idea of the liquid cooled engine. I'm not mechanically inclined and I'm hoping this will give me a less tempermental car with better heat for the Iowa winter. Help me out guys is this stupid.
(Message Edited 7/14/2003 5:13:31 PM)

I love the idea of a Suby engine in a McSpeedster. I know traditionalist will howl but that's ok. I don't know if Speciality has completed their prototype or not. Since they are redesigning the engine / drive train I wonder why they didn't add roll-up windows while they are at it?

I recently contacted them and the "cabriolet" which gives all the modern conveniences ie: roll up windows, is qoing to be coming maybe in september and I think this is the car for me

Liquid cooled?? Oh man.....

Installa TIV, get the reliability And the aircooled design...

What kind of realistic maintenance schedule is needed for driving a type IV and can I Produce enough heat to be driving when its 20 degrees Farenheit outside

What kind of realistic maintenance schedule is needed for driving a type TIV and can I Produce enough heat to be driving when its 20 degrees Farenheit outside

Now Jake, you have said nice things about the Suby engine in the past, right?

Subaru - from those wonderful people who brought you Pearl Harbor, Bataan, Wake, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, and refuse to import most American goods/services. Banzai...

George, and who designed the Suby engine? Would it have been Herr Docktor Porsche? I blame the unequal market access on our own USG trade negotiators for not demanding better terms, not Japanese businesses or its citizens.

Doing an IM for 30G is like getting a new house without furniture, landscaping, Yard tools, Inside doors, a dishaswasher, yada, ya.....

30G will build you a killer VS/JPS and give you enough for round trip fairs to Hanalei, Kauai to get your wife to see the beauty in your budgeting.

Love IMs, may have one (speedster) someday, but... 30G for a decent new one? I don't think so. I really don't mean to offend, but I have done my homework and know what it takes to get one of Henry's jewels in something ofher than stocker (starting car) form.

Jim
VS Owner 2 years and happy with it.

The one problem with purchasing a type IV is the lack of any heating system, unless you went with a gas heater like George did. A gas heater and a T4 motor from Jake would be a beautiful combination. Getting an air cooled motor, with heater boxes, to produce enough heat when it gets below freezing, is going to be a very hard thing to do.
Ron

Jim is absolutely correct, BUT (there's always a "but") $30,000 can get you a pretty decent (if not spectacular) IM Speedster. All of the quality, fit/finish, and attention to detail will still be there but you'll have to live without some options you might want.

If you go CRAZY on engine, transaxle, and MANY custom options an IM Speedster can cost well over $50,000. Example;

five Bivens 356A aluminum wheels $2,900
four Crower titanium connecting rods $2,300
Precision Alloy TF-1 aluminum engine case, fully machined $1,600
CB Performance wide-five disk brakes $1,400 (approximation)
easily removeable chrome plated roll bar $700
two NOS Dellorto 48 DRLA carburetors $1,200
custom VDO Carrera instruments $1,100
IM Carrera rear deck lid option $500
set of custom pistons $700
custom lightweight wrist pins $160
Schubeck Racing composite lifters $400
all new custom 901 5-speed with LSD $4,800
Espar gas heater and custom installation $1,500
trunk modifiction for full sized spare tire $500
etc.

(Message Edited 7/15/2003 1:17:23 PM)
(Message Edited 7/15/2003 2:14:50 PM)

I really want a roadster D because I may get caught in the rain and my impression is the top is much better and the roll up windows help also ....george if I'm right tell me.....and I will spend the extra money to get what I really want....except of course the perfomance options as you mentioned I would be very happy with 135hp in order to provide enough power for the air conditioning. Speed and power mean very little to me I want the look of the D, that I can also drive in most weather. I did contact IM and they are sending me information on pricing

ron do you think I could live with a vs/jsp in the very unpredictable weather in IOWA because it would save me a lot of money....but is it worth the savings versus the less weather resistance of a D model

Jim I understand exactly what your saying, because when I bought my house was just after the floods of 93 in Des Moines and the new house had doors but I had nothing to put in the house.....and then I found out the dishwasher didn't work either....trying to avoid exactly those problems

I did a few winter commutes in my "D" with top up and heat via custom exhaust and heater boxes. Visibility is great compared to a Speedster.

Got caught in light rain once and it was no big deal and no leaks - windshield wipers are two speed with intermittent switch.

Steven,
For what its worth, here's my $.02 worth:

As a fellow midwesterener, I'd spend as much as I could afford to stay warm, and not a dime on A/C. If George can get a new gas heater installed for $1500, I would venture that its the best $1500 you can spend on a new replica 356. I couldn't imagine a new car w/o A/C, but after trying a "starter" car, I became convinced that it was really unneeded. My daughter has a Miata- she drives it "top up" in hot weather, and I ask myself... "why have a convertible?"

I spent over $4000 on a hardtop trying to stay warm for the 6 months a year it is too cold to be driving a speedster, but trying to heat a speedster with heater boxes is not effective under 30 deg. A lot of other guys will tell you the heat is great, I'm a wimp, etc., but they are either guys who live in CA (or FL), or guys who ride motorcycles in the winter. George doesn't live in CA. He commuted on his motorcycle all year long. His first IM had GREAT heat. But he's the guy with the gas heater. I work outside all year long. Its not fun for me to prove I can be cold and pretend to enjoy it.

If you want to USE this car in Iowa, I would spend the money and stay warm.

Seems to me this thread started talking about the Specialty Autoworks watercooled Subaru engine. I do not think that a watercooled mid-engine Speedster is a bad idea. The Subaru engine is very compact when modified and certainly provides more power, which seems to be the trend in the Speedster business these days. I would suggest that the proof is in the pudding so I am not prepared to judge the outcome yet. I also suspect that SAW has thought about roll up windows but would venture that they are working on the mechanical aspects of the design rather than the end cosmetics. Seem pretty innovative to me.

I never thought of the gas heater and for $1500 it would be the way to go..... I also have pictures from SAW of the prototype cabriolet with roll up windows, so it is in the works. I'm leaning towards the IM just because of their proven track record of quality. But I need to do some more research on the upkeep and maintenance of the 135/140hp air cooled engine. I worry about getting an engine that may need more TLC then I'm willing to give....anyway thats how I decided on my wife.....

Thanks for all the information guys, it really has helped. I guess I should have titled this topic "specialty autoworks liquid cooled versus air cooled" as this discussion has been exactly what I wanted.

George I will take that to mean no way and to stick with the IM Roadster? So now the question is on what to buy for options on a $30,000-40,0000 dollar budget. I know I probably should switch forums for this question, but I'm new and just excited to see george get into the conversation
(Message Edited 7/16/2003 8:59:08 AM)

There are tons of used gas heaters for sale on ebay for a couple hundred bucks. With a service manual and some deliberate thinking about where and how to hook it up, there is no reason someone handy couldn't do it himself. Besides being hot enough to keep you toasty warm during arctic weather, they allow you to run j-tubes so your engine operates more efficiently (heater boxes rob power) and your heads will run cooler in the summer months.

I know that George is having his car built with a gas heater installed, but where do you put a gas heater in an older replica. I haven't looked at the other makes, but in an older IM there is no place to safely put a gas heater. I asked Henry about installing one and he said, "no way". Is there anyone out there that actually has a gas heater installed in their replica? (besides George)
Ron

BEWARE OF USED GAS HEATERS. For instance, some of the original Porsche Carreras were factory fitted with Ebersacher gas heaters in the trunk and some of these cars had fires and burned.

Also, if you buy a used heater, be sure you get an owner's manual, a service manual, and installation specs (clearances between heater and body parts, pipe sizes, etc., for hot parts of the unit).

This is not a shade-tree mechanic item unless you want to roast marshmallows over your pride and joy.
(Message Edited 7/16/2003 12:57:54 PM)

When I originally approached this subject with Henry my reasoning was threefold: (1) make heating independent of the exhasut system, (2) reduce weight at the rear of the car (two heater boxes are fairly heavy), and (3) provide instant adequate all-season heat/defrost.

Henry loves new and interesting challenges. He obtained a new Espar unit, checked out the installation and operating instructions, then modified the bodywork fibreglass to provide a mounting location that satisfied him (and he's very picky).

A retro fit on an existing car shouldn't be a problem; there should be enough room somewhere in the front trunk area.

NOTE: Gas heaters require periodic servicing and most of them are quite noisy when operating. if you install one make sure there is enough room to replace fuses, change the spark plug (or glow plug), etc.
(Message Edited 7/16/2003 3:23:41 PM)

Is the gas heater something henry would have a price on installed.... the idea of doing it myself is too scary for me...even though I love roasted marshmellows. I will talk to henry about installing a gas heater and maybe I could even provide one that my mechanic is familiar with, (my mechanic is also an airplane mechanic and works on these types of systems all the time). George, how much extra was it to put on your roadster.

GEEZ,... this thread reminds me of my '62 Corvair. When I was living in Detroit, I used to keep an ice scraper on the dashboard and scrap ice crystals of the INSIDE of the windshield while I drove to work.

George wrote:

BEWARE OF USED GAS HEATERS. For instance, some of the original Porsche Carreras were factory fitted with Ebersacher gas heaters in the trunk and some of these cars had fires and burned

No doubt this is true. However, circa the 356 Carrera those gas heaters were primative compared to gas heaters that were sold in the 70's and 80's as aftermarket heaters for aircooled cars. The newer models have a fail-safe feature added that the early units didn't have.

Service regularly. Know your limitations.

Mr. Klipfel - I drove a '64 Corvair convertible in Detroit during the winter so my '56 Speedster would not have to cope with the salt. Small world...

I have 5 daily driver Vws/Porsches...4 of them have Gas heaters and 3 are retrofits that I have done...

My bus has a Southwind gas heater used in Helicopters, it burns on JP-4/5/8 and puts out 25,000 BTU..

The gas heater is just like anything else, it has to be maintained and when doing an install one must consider variables and workmanship is huge part of the job....

Anything will burn, just like a brand new Mercedes I saw last week torched on I85 while a lady came running out of it.

Gas Heaters ROCK!

All of you gentlemen should step back and look at the larger picture. You want a true roadster, a Speedster, then you are junking it up with a bunch of modern conveniences. Go buy a Miata.

Richard is right, but if I wanted an original then I would buy an original..... it is my goal to have a completely optioned out traditional looking roadster with as much modern mechanical specifications as possible. If I could rip the body and interior out of a miata and slap a roadster body and interior on, thats exactly what I would do. I understand to some people this makes no sense, but that is exactly what I am working towards.

I did get my information from Henry and the IM optioned the way I want the car will cost about 46,500, but I would still rather have the IM then a less expensive original. I guess I'll just spend a little more money then I had first planned.... but that almost always happens on any large purchase I make.

Hooray for you Steve. I completely agree wih you. I consider my JPS to be a "street rod". I could care less what a purist thinks. Its lots of fun whipping all kinds of vehicles in drags or better yet, in cornering, all hidden behind the guise of of a "what year Porsche is that?" Hell, I specified a recessed license plate and flush tailights, four wheel discs and flairs on day one.

"What year is that car?" "Well sir, which exact part are you referring to?" And so the education of another future speedster owner begins.

Got to agree with water cooling though. Mazda rotaries have sucesfully been used on several VW pan based kits for many years.
My next speedster will definitely be Subaru powered. It being a street rod, a few estheically chosen grille openings up front do not detract a bit in my book. And one local shop is getting a reliable 300 horses at the REAR WHEELS out of a turbo fer God's sake!

I hate to be the voice of reason/wet blanket/devil's advocate.... but, for 30K and looking for all sorts of conveniences, why not an Audi TT cabriolet or a used Boxster? You get a modern car, likely with a local dealer who can fix any problem, and won't have any insurance or registration problems. I keep coming back to this point with a speedster replica where I want the look but no hassles. Just a thought having driven none of the three.

Well David, all I can say is to each his own. But, if I wanted a street rod, it would not have a Porsche body.