I would like to build a speedster with more modern components like All Wheel Drive, Suburu engine/tranny/suspension. I was thinking the easiest option would be to buy a donor Suburu and just replace the body with a speedster fiberglass body from kitman. Do people even do that or is this a bad idea?
If it's a good option, is there a Suburu model/year to get that requires little modification to make it fit the speedster body?
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Simply put, a Speedster body will not fit on any Subaru chassis - they are totally different.
There used to be a builder who bought used Subarus, removed all of the pertinent drive train components and fitted them to a custom-made chassis that he built and then fitted a speedster body to that, but he was/is a scam artist who took a lot of deposit money from people and then never produced a car for them. You certainly don't want to do business with him unless you want to lose $20K - $40K of your money.
Beck in Indiana has been building Subaru powered cars with either VW or Subaru transmissions and everyone seems to like them. Vintage Motorcars in Hawaiian Gardens, CA has been looking at producing Subaru-powered cars but I don't know how close to production they are.
That's about it.
Subarus, like all modern cars, use a unitized construction, which means the body and frame are one unit. There is no separate chassis that you can take out from under a Subaru with all the mechanical components attached. Besides, a Speedster is much smaller than any Subaru (or any new car other than a Miata), so even if there was a chassis you could use, it would be way too big.
There's a guy round my neck of the woods who cut a Subaru Outback down to the sill plates and grafted a VW Squareback body shell over that. It's absolutely awesome, a Frankenstein's monster of a vehicle, and he drives it regularly to Cars & Coffee and beyond.
The first thing you notice about the car (other than the pure awesomeness of it) is that he scabbed about nine inches of additional front fender length into the car. The reason for this is that, the Type 3 VW's wheelbase and chassis arrangement in no way conforms to the Outback's.
Subaru hangs their engines out in front of the front wheels, in order to make room for those juicy, juicy all wheel drive transaxles they install just behind them. Tech note: This is exactly the opposite arrangement as in a Squareback VW.
Or a Porsche 356.
Anyway, looking his car over carefully, you'd notice more and more ingenious kludges, patches and engineering marvels, most of which he seems to have accomplished with a 110 a/c welding machine with flux core wire. It is, as I said, a work of astounding beauty.
I will root around my archives in search of a photo. Meantime, I hope this helps.
How do you make a Subaru front engine work with the motor in the rear .?
I can see using the engine and a reverse gearbox , but how do you power the front diff ?
at one time they’re were all wheel drive rally cross VW bugs that ran in Sweden , I never did figure out how they got power to the front diff.
I think you would need some kind of transfer case.
The entire engine/trans and front half-shafts are moved to the rear when doing a MID-ENGINE Subaru into 356 Speedster or coupe. So you delete the back seat area, and the engine is literally behind the two seats(same as a 550 Spyder) with the transmission behind the engine.
The 4wd needs to be changed to 2WD. The rear driveshaft and differential is eliminated, and the "transfer case" is integral to the Subaru transmission. The tailshaft of the Subaru transmission gets shortened a few inches and some welding is required internally(or buy bespoke parts from Subarugears.com).
This setup is the same concept that GM used with the Fiero. They took the entire FWD front clip from the X-body(Citation) and put it behind the seats.
The only way to get a rear engine 4WD for me would be the Vanagon Synchro setup. However, you're stuck with a 4 speed. Not a great setup for a sports car, the front drive is dashboard lockable. But the "transfer case" is part of the transmission(I think) and the front differential is pretty small. That last shouldn't be a problem as not much torque would be required in the front with the rear weight bias.
If you aren't good with Vanagon you might try a Porsche 911 running gear, maybe an aircooled Carrera 4. The problem is the track and the wheelbase of the 356 are both narrower and shorter. That will be spendy I'm sure.
Regarding the modern accoutrements - anything is possible (theoretically), but not in practice, unless you have a limitless budget. Like "Jeff Bezos limitless".
@Ace posted:is there a Suburu model/year to get that requires little modification to make it fit the speedster body?
I'm the "tear off the Band-Aid quick" guy.
Nope.
There is no modern car that a speedster body just drapes over. Its unique and beautiful shape creates all sorts of issues when you try to adapt to a different layout. Also, it's tiny in relation to a modern car. Everybody starts out in this hobby thinking there has to be a way, but there isn't.
There just is not.
Well, you can bastardize a Boxster if you care to.
We have all seen how that turned out.
I kinda like the Boxster version. It is a bit on the large side though.
@edsnova posted:I kinda like the Boxster version. It is a bit on the large side though.
The Boxster version is OK-ish. If you throw back two fingers of Scotch and squint very hard.
But then you glance at an unmolested Boxster (stone cold sober) and think, "ooooo, that one's nice".
In the end you can take a large pile of money, turn it into a tiny pile of money, and have something that, if you think of it charitably, "has a great personality".
Stan is not wrong. ..
Thinking this over a bit, sipping a bebridge, I believe that one could, theoretically, if one were extremely ambitious and technically skilled, install a Subaru WRX drivetrain into a 356 replica.
Consider the Subaru Gears 5-speed transaxle.
This is, far as I know, the "flipped ring gear" setup we need to use that box in our cars. What if?
What if those reversed boxes could be had with their AWD systems still extant?
OK now we're cookin' right? Now alls you have to do is engineer a front driven suspension and graft it onto your tube chassis, rig up the correct driveshaft, and plug in the drivetrain into the back of your speedster as normal. (And of course build a functional cooling system in the scant remaining space upfront).
Easy and also peasy! Get all that done and...
BLAMMO: instant street stardom! A turbo'd all wheel drive 356!
But wait! Seems like such a special machine should have some special styling cues, should it not? Something to signify to all who gaze upon it that this is no ordinary 356 Speedster.
And—what luck!—such a body kit already exists!
What’s the big deal?
I bet Steve Lawing has already promised three or four AWD roadsters by now……. 🤣
Or to save time and money, buy an AWD 911 and badge it 1600 Super. Cut a horseshoe shape out of 1/4 in. aluminum stock, paint it cartoon magnet red, and take it with you to Cars and Coffee.
@Gordon Nichols posted:What’s the big deal?
I bet Steve Lawing has already promised three or four AWD roadsters by now……. 🤣
I remember when SL was quacking about doing ABS on his cars. I don't think that ever came to fruition, just like a lot of "promised" things by that guy.
ABS - That's not "Additional Bull $#!+", which the buyers got by default, but "Anti-lock Braking System".
Someone on here, @Jethro? has ABS. In fact, I think several SAS cars had ABS. IIRC, that Moss green SAS roadster with the turbo WRX engine that came to Carlisle once had ABS, too (and he needed all the braking he could muster).
SL used all Subaru parts for the braking system as well as the original dash gauges and ECU + other computers so they would all be expecting the ABS sensors to be there so as to NOT throw error codes on the OBD through the CAN bus.
And remember, Jethro's car is the only one with a powered convertible top.
I wonder if @Alan Merklin might do that on his current build? That would be super trick (and add another month to the build, for sure).
After reading this article, it made me wonder if a speedster wide body could fit on an old 2000 audi tt chassis? Probably not close enough to make it practical.
@Gordon Nichols posted:Vintage Motorcars in Hawaiian Gardens, CA has been looking at producing Subaru-powered cars but I don't know how close to production they are.
They for sure are building them, I'm hoping mine is completed soon. There are at least 3 in process right now that I know of because I've been trying to get pics of mine for a while. Engine from Outfront and I've got pics of it and was able to have components fitted to my specs (within reason of course)
@Ace posted:After reading this article, it made me wonder if a speedster wide body could fit on an old 2000 audi tt chassis? Probably not close enough to make it practical.
A 2000 Audi TT had a 95.6" wheelbase. The 356A had a 82.7" wheelbase. That's almost 13" shorter. The 356 has a lot of real-estate behind the rear axle, the TT does not. It's not just that they are dimensionally incompatible, they're incompatible in how they carry their weight.
If you'd like a "modern 356-look" car, I'd absolutely recommend a TT coupe, as long as you are aware that the dynamics will be very, very different. If you want a 356 coupe, it won't be on a Audi TT chassis.
@Ace posted:After reading this article, it made me wonder if a speedster wide body could fit on an old 2000 audi tt chassis? Probably not close enough to make it practical.
We owned an early convertible and it was ok. Just ok heavy front end
I believe I have seen someone on an Australian site do something like that but not sure how it is done.
@Ace I have already outlined your project with more precision and completeness than a Thunder Ranch assembly manual (see above), even including a link to the key part required. Do not continue to dilly-dally: as both @WOLFGANG and @ALB will tell you, this group does not tolerate dawdlers.
Please get after it, and start a build thread so we may follow your progress.
They're pricy AND ugly. And you forgot the E on the end.
I think they should rename them the STANKE, for a little "Marvel" humor.
Yeah, I don't get the whole "Let's take a nice, but now kinda old 1st Gen Boxster and spend a lot of money converting it into a less attractive tribute to a Speedster - still with old mechanicals" thing.
Starke:
$175,000 base car cost plus you provide the donor.
Now they are offering a coupe, looks like a modified Cayman. No pics of a finished car.
Wow!
Constructing dreams is not cheap.
When I first got my CMC Californian body home, I fully intended to sit it on top of a Fiero, complete with a turbo-assisted Pontiac V6. I even bought a used Fiero that had been hit, (left rear) but suffered only minor chassis damage. I got most of the body panels off when I finally realized that it used an extensive combined chassis/body unit that, to separate them from each other jeopardized the structural integrity of everything, so that didn't happen. It's probably a good thing, as I actually fixed the damage and drove it from my Dad's down to my house (maybe 1/2 mile) and that engine had so much torque it probably would have killed me two or three times over.
The lesson learned, was that you can't just slap a fiberglass body onto a chassis it wasn't designed for without spending an insane amount of money and even then it will be some sort of mongrel that will forever remind you of your folly at thinking that you knew more than the (different) engineers who designed the chassis and body (and never talked to each other because, why bother?).
Another lesson learned: All Fieros had a huge central console, which turned out to be a 16 gallon fuel tank - Sitting right between the passengers. And they claimed that it was safer than a Pinto. 🤔
@Gordon Nichols posted:.
...The lesson learned, was that you can't just slap a fiberglass body onto a chassis it wasn't designed for without spending an insane amount of money and even then it will be some sort of mongrel that will forever remind you of your folly at thinking that you knew more than the (different) engineers who designed the chassis and body...
I've often thought it was something like this that caused the huge delay between the original Starke 'concept' images and the production of an actual prototype — not to mention the 'adjustment' in quoted price from $50K to $100K to what is now apparently $175K.
And still no published road tests from independent reviewers or much evidence that anything is being produced at all.
.
It's fairly amazing how lost a clever man can get once off the road...
Curious about the Starke project I googled around. From the company's Facebook page, three weeks ago:
Starke has recently been acquired and you're invited to "Ride Along" as we begin our journey to develop our future line-up. Now known as Starke Motor Company, we're owned and operated by a third-generation automotive family with over seventy years experience in automotive aftermarket sourcing & specialty car customization.
I miss my Fiero with a fiberglass 308 body and a Northstar engine.
That was (and is!) a cool kit.
Since this is @Ace's thread I think it's worth a bit of exposition, for his enlightenment.
tl/dnr: pay attention to all the dimensions, then understand why what you seek is not practical—or even desirable—if the 356 experience is what you seek.
The Pontiac Fiero had a 93.4 inch wheelbase. The Ferrari's was just over 92. That is a key part of what made using the one to copy the other feasible. Now look closer:
Upon their introduction in 1983, Fieros were considered to be tiny cars. (GM E bodies' wheelbase was 114. The V body (Allante) was 99. A and X bodies (Citation) were 105, and so on.) The front and rear wheels on the Fiero were a foot closer together than just about anything else on the road at the time, and, again... it was still bigger than the 308.
This is because cars just got way bigger generally between the 50s and the 70s.
This was true in all dimensions. Wheelbases stretched, but the real story was width.
Fieros are 69 inches wide. A Ferrari 308 is a bit under 67.
What all this means is that, if one were to acquire a complete Ferrari 308 body shell and a 1985 Fiero, one would encounter great difficulty fitting the former upon the latter's chassis. The only way to make a Fiero look like Magnum PI's car is to make your own 308-ish body kit. You'd widen the whole thing about 1.5 inches to get the wheels tucked. You'd lengthen it a couple inches too so the proportions looked right. You'd do whatever was needed to match the door openings to the chassis pickup points. The rake of the windscreen would need minor adjustment. With all that done, you'd start over because it looked like crap...
This is not stuff you or I could do easily in our respective garages.
—and it would still be easier than if we tried to make an existing 308 body—which is oh-so-close to being the right size—fit on the Fiero space frame.
Now let's go back and look at the dimensions of the 356, a design that's nearly four decades older than a Fiero.
The 356's wheelbase is roughly 83 inches. It is nearly a foot shorter than a Fiero, which was tiny for its day, which was 3 decades ago.
The Speedster's body width is 65 inches. It's four inches narrower than a Fiero. Front track width is less than 51 inches.
Speedster bodies barely fit on a modified Beetle pan because even 1960s Bugs had a wider track than the 356. Your 1968 Bug front suspension has a track width of 51.6 inches. The difference is only about 7/8 of an inch. Less than a half inch per side! Trivial, right?
It matters.
Miatas are some of the smallest sports cars made today. Wheelbase is 91 inches. Track width is 59 inches.
The front wheels of a Miata are eight inches wider apart from each other as those of a '50s Porsche Speedster. This is not trivial.
And this is why you can't use a modern car's chassis as the basis for a 356 tribute. Literally every car out there is way. too. big.
You really can't begin to think about what golden-era sports cars were all about without at least standing next to one and appreciating its scale. A 550 Spyder is under 12 feet long and three feet high. Parked next to any modern car it looks like a child's toy.
—and therein lies its charm. Everything both great and problematic about a Speedster derives from the fact that it is in no way similar to other vehicles, which is glaringly obvious because the thing is akin to a 7/8-scale model of a modern car.
Ergo: every single thing we do to "modernize" these cars—to improve their handling, increase their power, deaden the sound, seal against the weather—carries them away from their core.
Sure, we all do it to some extent. Nobody wants to run without seatbelts or radial tires, almost everyone runs disc brakes, at least in front. These are necessary concessions to the realities of today's traffic.
But every step we take in this direction carries us that much farther away from the ideal we thought we admired. From the experience we at first sought.
My 308 replica wasn't from a kit. It was a factory rebody called a Mera. They built 247 of them. Many went to Japan. They were sold through Pontiac dealers until Ferrari stopped them.
Mine was owned by the factory owner and I got it with 1500 miles on it.
Owning the Mera extended the build time of my Speedster.
@Michael McKelvey posted:My 308 replica wasn't from a kit. It was a factory rebody called a Mera. They built 247 of them. Many went to Japan. They were sold through Pontiac dealers until Ferrari stopped them.
Excellent! Now we can cue up the "kit" vs "replica" vs "tribute" factory vs home-built battle royale. I shall go to my corner and await the bell.
Mine wasn't home built. Nor is it a kit.
It's a factory built tribute replica continuation.
Anybody else?
@edsnova posted:Excellent! Now we can cue up the "kit" vs "replica" vs "tribute" factory vs home-built battle royale. I shall go to my corner and await the bell.
“Clown car”*
Always. From here on out, every time anyone asks “the question”. It diffuses every bit of pomp running either way.
*The knockout punch - the referee counts to 10. The winner, and still champion
“Bespoke, hand-crafted tribute with many custom features”
Volkswagon with a complex.
Volkswagon that identifies as a Porsche
Confused VW
Porsche Lite
