Speedster Engine VMC

Not being privy to the conversation, VMC builds to a pretty consistent spec and has a consistent backlog for that specific configuration. I assume that doing what you want adds to the cost and the build time.

If you are getting a Pat Downs engine, it isn't stock. It is a well built, significant upgrade to a stock Type 1.

These cars can be daily drivers, but they require maintenance and attention that exceeds that of a Toyota Corolla.

These cars can certainly handle more than a stock engine, and the 2332 Pat's designed for VMC, while isn't huge on hp (I believe about 140 and revs with power to 5,000? 5500? 6,000? rpm), is pretty quick in a Speedster, enough for most people and it's almost as easy to take care of as a stock 1600.  People have put Type 4 powerplants in Speedsters with great success.  What specifically are you wanting to do?  How much power are you looking for?

PS- and these cars can do WAYYY more than just be driven to the store or the beach on weekends...

Yeah, mine covered the Charleston, SC <-> Carlisle, PA trip 12 times as well as a number of trips to the Smokies so they're certainly capable of that.  I had a Pat Downs (when he was with CB Perf.) built 1915 and it held up well for the 58,000 miles I had the car.  That said, they DO require regular maintenance more frequently than a modern car, but it's not onerous.

Thanks for the input everyone. I plan on driving it occasionally for enjoyment. However, maybe it's ego or just wanting to look at it occasionally and admire the fact that it's not the ordinary and it's mine. Even if I don't use the power, it's knowing that it's there...if I'm making sense. I also don't mind taking it in to a mechanic every 4-6 months to be adjusted if that's what I would be looking at. Am I impractical or need to be more realistic at 70!?

I'm 75.

I have an early VMC.

You are on track.

That 2332 From Mr. Downs is plenty.

Go drive one and see.

You need to go test drive one with the 2332. I have driven one and it’s more than adequate power. That being said, if you want more power I think you can convince Pat to build you a type 4. He just built one for me and it dyno’d at 195hp and 205 ft-lbs. 2.65 L type 4. It will cost you at least 3 times as much as the 2332 type 1. But he said he would build more if there was demand.

Is it overkill or thinking it's not an unreasonable request for the car?

Your money, your choice.

You can't go wrong with Pat Downs.

Is much maintenance required with the Type 4?

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@Pat F , Pat Downs and Greg at VM, between them, have decades of experience building and powering these cars. Listen to them.

In addition, Pat lives in California's central valley, where the climate is much like yours, in Arizona. With these cars, cooling is a major issue, and it becomes more major the more power you generate in the tiny engine bay that was originally designed to handle only 70 hp.

When Porsche went beyond 70 hp, they very quickly doubled up the cooling vents and, for their 'high performance' engines (still only 130 hp), they added external oil coolers.

If you want to do daily driving in Arizona at any time other than mid-winter, you'll want to follow Pat's guidelines.

My engine is a more modest 110-hp Type 1 (about 2025 cc) and it is more than enough for daily driving in traffic and for freeway cruising, but the design has been 'throttled back' a little with an eye towards adequate cooling in an arid climate. The 2332 is a substantial step up from that.

The drivetrain Greg and Pat are suggesting is strong enough to do any kind of driving you may desire. If they're hinting you may not want to do long-distance cruising, they're probably thinking of the comfort factors of a tiny car with a 1950s suspension, no ventilation system, and very crude weather protection. Some of us do it anyway, but it's not for everyone.

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You're right on with their thinking! These were the issues we discussed. It would be better suited for the fall, winter, and spring. Again it was more a preference on my end and maybe not the most practical solution.

The heart wants what the heart wants.

Greg has standardized his builds because he can. If you or I had a business with a 3+ year wait and people lining up to pay pretty much whatever was the asking price, neither of us would be super interested in taking projects that were sure to gum up the queue either.

However, I'm sure Greg would happily build you a car without an engine and you could spec, source, and install your own engine (trying to better what he's offering). It sounds painless, and I did that with Intermeccanica.

Here's the thing, though -- I've had 5 different engines in my car looking for the secret sauce (and there have been different permutations of at least 3 of those). I've got a pile of parts in Rapid City, SD for engine number 6, which I'm hoping will be the one ring to rule them all. I was 42 when I got the car (less engine and transaxle) and I'm 61 now. As Bono said, "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For". It's a good thing I've come close, or I'd give up chasing my White Whale. This hobby has extended my career by at least 5 years (and that's not a joke).

The point? More is more and there's always a way to get "more", as long as you're willing to turn on the money hose and start spraying it indiscriminately.

@Pat F

It is not overthinking or unreasonable.  And it is definitely doable.

Someone asked a fellow:  How much power is enough?  The answer:  "If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower." ~ Mark Donohue

Considering the source, that sounds like pretty good advice; if you can drive on the track like Mark Donohue.  But in real life, how much power do you really need, or want to maintain.

Another source for consideration is, of course, Pat Downs.  He builds relatively bullet-proof "production" engines for VMC, and he also builds record breaking drag racing engines that will easily smoke tire tracks across your local 4-way stop.  One engine will be reliable through the life of your ownership, the other might be looking for a rebuild before the next intersection.  You get the idea.

Personally, I've always been a 'more is better' kind of guy.  A 180 hp built 2332 is a practically vanilla spec for Pat Downs.  I'd hazard a guess that he has done it before.  I'll bet he'd do it for you.  That build spec is not overthinking or unreasonable at all.  You should give him a call.  I can't suggest anybody else who can give you a better opinion.  In other words:  Go to the source.

Whether you can get VMC to install it, and the appropriate transaxle to go with it, I don't know.  (Did you forget about the hp appropriate transaxle?).  From what I've read VMC has their hands full with a backlog of 'catalog spec' production schedule.  You might have to get in line in the 'specials dept' behind @aircooled Bruce.

Has anyone had any major issues with desert heat and an air cooled engine in these cars?

@Pat F posted:

Has anyone had any major issues with desert heat and an air cooled engine in these cars?

Oh my gosh, yes.

A type 4 is maybe a 20-year newer air-cooled technology. But there are a gazillion T1's out there.

PROs - full flow with oil filter (no bug screen), originally was 76-106 hp not 50 hp, original aluminum case, and heavy duty bottom end. Can produce higher, reliable horse power.

CONs - way more costly to rebuild, price an exhaust (no off shelf ones), costly conversion if you want up-right cooling, less aftermarket parts available.  Plus can't use the forged 914 flywheel needs bus cast one or custom one.

@Pat F. Curious if you've driven a speedster or speedster replica before?  This entire conversation may be a moot point.  You may find a 2332 good enough......or the car is simply too slow when compared to the new daily driver in your garage. (regardless of what engine configuration you put in the speedster)

If you haven't driven one, I suggest that becomes your Number One priority.  You may find the engine to be the least of your worries.

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Pat, you've heard some good explanations of why Greg and Pat D. have settled on this version of a 2332 for Greg's standard, and also that Pat can easily pull more power from such an engine.

You really should be discussing this more with Pat if you want more output and what he thinks it will take to get you there if you want to drive it in 100-degree heat.

Again, it's hard to overemphasize how much a factor ambient temperature plays with these engines — much more than with modern, computer-managed liquid-cooled engines.

My engine seems to turn a corner (and very predictably) around 80 degrees. Above that, I need to pay closer attention to the temperature gauge and watch how much I stress it. I have an external oil cooler (a pretty decent one, designed for racing applications, and installed by an experienced VW mechanic), and it keeps temperatures under control, but the engine is noticeably more stressed once ambient temps climb above that magic 80 degrees.

By 95 degrees ambient, the engine is obviously way out of its comfort zone and I need to be pretty careful to keep the fan speed up, and avoid lugging it. It's not unusual with engines like mine for drivers to invoke 'special measures' to keep blasting along on the freeway at 80 mph when temps are in the 90's. Some have devised special props for their engine bay lids that open the lids a few inches for better airflow. Some just stop every half hour or so.

I'm pretty sure one of the major reasons Pat kept the power output on this 2332 so low was to make sure it wouldn't overheat no matter where it was driven and no matter how much it was abused by drivers who weren't used to having to 'baby' an engine in extreme heat.

Again, if I lived where you do, I'd be talking to Pat directly about this and asking him for solutions.

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Thanks for your insight. The ambient temperature in AZ has been my main concern. Greg installs an external oil cooler fan. I'll have to research this to see if there's a better alternative than what comes with the car. Do you have brand recommendation?

Jake Raby contributed significantly to what is probably a 1,000 page thread on cooling on TheSamba. He’s extensively tested all kinds of cooling solutions over his ~25 years in the business.
Most cooling issues are due to cheap aftermarket shrouds, poorly fitting tin, and faulty separation of cool intake air and hot output air.
I never experienced a cooling issue of any sort after I installed my Thing shroud and TypeIV oil cooler. (No external cooler) According to Raby’s testing, it was second only to his DTM shroud in cooling efficiency. VW redesigned the Thing shroud imagining lower revs and less airflow. Based on my experience, it works.
The problem lies when people think a 911-look shroud with no internal baffling and an external cooler is going to cool like a properly baffled shroud. It doesn’t, and Raby has the numbers to prove it.
I really don’t understand why Pat D. uses them. Especially on an engine that costs as much as his do. The Concept 1 kit with a TypeIV oil cooler is only $300 more than a cheap Chinese shroud and probably similar to an inefficient 911-look shroud.

@Pat F posted:

Is much maintenance required with the Type 4?

I can’t see any reason it would be any different than a Type I: check your valve adjustment, carb adjustment, and timing (unless you have electronic ignition) every time you change your oil. Clean or change your plugs every 3-4 oil changes.