Speedster Engine VMC

Not being privy to the conversation, VMC builds to a pretty consistent spec and has a consistent backlog for that specific configuration. I assume that doing what you want adds to the cost and the build time.

If you are getting a Pat Downs engine, it isn't stock. It is a well built, significant upgrade to a stock Type 1.

These cars can be daily drivers, but they require maintenance and attention that exceeds that of a Toyota Corolla.

These cars can certainly handle more than a stock engine, and the 2332 Pat's designed for VMC, while isn't huge on hp (I believe about 140 and revs with power to 5,000? 5500? 6,000? rpm), is pretty quick in a Speedster, enough for most people and it's almost as easy to take care of as a stock 1600.  People have put Type 4 powerplants in Speedsters with great success.  What specifically are you wanting to do?  How much power are you looking for?

PS- and these cars can do WAYYY more than just be driven to the store or the beach on weekends...

Yeah, mine covered the Charleston, SC <-> Carlisle, PA trip 12 times as well as a number of trips to the Smokies so they're certainly capable of that.  I had a Pat Downs (when he was with CB Perf.) built 1915 and it held up well for the 58,000 miles I had the car.  That said, they DO require regular maintenance more frequently than a modern car, but it's not onerous.

Thanks for the input everyone. I plan on driving it occasionally for enjoyment. However, maybe it's ego or just wanting to look at it occasionally and admire the fact that it's not the ordinary and it's mine. Even if I don't use the power, it's knowing that it's there...if I'm making sense. I also don't mind taking it in to a mechanic every 4-6 months to be adjusted if that's what I would be looking at. Am I impractical or need to be more realistic at 70!?

I'm 75.

I have an early VMC.

You are on track.

That 2332 From Mr. Downs is plenty.

Go drive one and see.

You need to go test drive one with the 2332. I have driven one and it’s more than adequate power. That being said, if you want more power I think you can convince Pat to build you a type 4. He just built one for me and it dyno’d at 195hp and 205 ft-lbs. 2.65 L type 4. It will cost you at least 3 times as much as the 2332 type 1. But he said he would build more if there was demand.

Is it overkill or thinking it's not an unreasonable request for the car?

Your money, your choice.

You can't go wrong with Pat Downs.

Is much maintenance required with the Type 4?

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@Pat F , Pat Downs and Greg at VM, between them, have decades of experience building and powering these cars. Listen to them.

In addition, Pat lives in California's central valley, where the climate is much like yours, in Arizona. With these cars, cooling is a major issue, and it becomes more major the more power you generate in the tiny engine bay that was originally designed to handle only 70 hp.

When Porsche went beyond 70 hp, they very quickly doubled up the cooling vents and, for their 'high performance' engines (still only 130 hp), they added external oil coolers.

If you want to do daily driving in Arizona at any time other than mid-winter, you'll want to follow Pat's guidelines.

My engine is a more modest 110-hp Type 1 (about 2025 cc) and it is more than enough for daily driving in traffic and for freeway cruising, but the design has been 'throttled back' a little with an eye towards adequate cooling in an arid climate. The 2332 is a substantial step up from that.

The drivetrain Greg and Pat are suggesting is strong enough to do any kind of driving you may desire. If they're hinting you may not want to do long-distance cruising, they're probably thinking of the comfort factors of a tiny car with a 1950s suspension, no ventilation system, and very crude weather protection. Some of us do it anyway, but it's not for everyone.

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You're right on with their thinking! These were the issues we discussed. It would be better suited for the fall, winter, and spring. Again it was more a preference on my end and maybe not the most practical solution.

The heart wants what the heart wants.

Greg has standardized his builds because he can. If you or I had a business with a 3+ year wait and people lining up to pay pretty much whatever was the asking price, neither of us would be super interested in taking projects that were sure to gum up the queue either.

However, I'm sure Greg would happily build you a car without an engine and you could spec, source, and install your own engine (trying to better what he's offering). It sounds painless, and I did that with Intermeccanica.

Here's the thing, though -- I've had 5 different engines in my car looking for the secret sauce (and there have been different permutations of at least 3 of those). I've got a pile of parts in Rapid City, SD for engine number 6, which I'm hoping will be the one ring to rule them all. I was 42 when I got the car (less engine and transaxle) and I'm 61 now. As Bono said, "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For". It's a good thing I've come close, or I'd give up chasing my White Whale. This hobby has extended my career by at least 5 years (and that's not a joke).

The point? More is more and there's always a way to get "more", as long as you're willing to turn on the money hose and start spraying it indiscriminately.

@Pat F

It is not overthinking or unreasonable.  And it is definitely doable.

Someone asked a fellow:  How much power is enough?  The answer:  "If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower." ~ Mark Donohue

Considering the source, that sounds like pretty good advice; if you can drive on the track like Mark Donohue.  But in real life, how much power do you really need, or want to maintain.

Another source for consideration is, of course, Pat Downs.  He builds relatively bullet-proof "production" engines for VMC, and he also builds record breaking drag racing engines that will easily smoke tire tracks across your local 4-way stop.  One engine will be reliable through the life of your ownership, the other might be looking for a rebuild before the next intersection.  You get the idea.

Personally, I've always been a 'more is better' kind of guy.  A 180 hp built 2332 is a practically vanilla spec for Pat Downs.  I'd hazard a guess that he has done it before.  I'll bet he'd do it for you.  That build spec is not overthinking or unreasonable at all.  You should give him a call.  I can't suggest anybody else who can give you a better opinion.  In other words:  Go to the source.

Whether you can get VMC to install it, and the appropriate transaxle to go with it, I don't know.  (Did you forget about the hp appropriate transaxle?).  From what I've read VMC has their hands full with a backlog of 'catalog spec' production schedule.  You might have to get in line in the 'specials dept' behind @aircooled Bruce.

Has anyone had any major issues with desert heat and an air cooled engine in these cars?

@Pat F posted:

Has anyone had any major issues with desert heat and an air cooled engine in these cars?

Oh my gosh, yes.

A type 4 is maybe a 20-year newer air-cooled technology. But there are a gazillion T1's out there.

PROs - full flow with oil filter (no bug screen), originally was 76-106 hp not 50 hp, original aluminum case, and heavy duty bottom end. Can produce higher, reliable horse power.

CONs - way more costly to rebuild, price an exhaust (no off shelf ones), costly conversion if you want up-right cooling, less aftermarket parts available.  Plus can't use the forged 914 flywheel needs bus cast one or custom one.

@Pat F. Curious if you've driven a speedster or speedster replica before?  This entire conversation may be a moot point.  You may find a 2332 good enough......or the car is simply too slow when compared to the new daily driver in your garage. (regardless of what engine configuration you put in the speedster)

If you haven't driven one, I suggest that becomes your Number One priority.  You may find the engine to be the least of your worries.

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Pat, you've heard some good explanations of why Greg and Pat D. have settled on this version of a 2332 for Greg's standard, and also that Pat can easily pull more power from such an engine.

You really should be discussing this more with Pat if you want more output and what he thinks it will take to get you there if you want to drive it in 100-degree heat.

Again, it's hard to overemphasize how much a factor ambient temperature plays with these engines — much more than with modern, computer-managed liquid-cooled engines.

My engine seems to turn a corner (and very predictably) around 80 degrees. Above that, I need to pay closer attention to the temperature gauge and watch how much I stress it. I have an external oil cooler (a pretty decent one, designed for racing applications, and installed by an experienced VW mechanic), and it keeps temperatures under control, but the engine is noticeably more stressed once ambient temps climb above that magic 80 degrees.

By 95 degrees ambient, the engine is obviously way out of its comfort zone and I need to be pretty careful to keep the fan speed up, and avoid lugging it. It's not unusual with engines like mine for drivers to invoke 'special measures' to keep blasting along on the freeway at 80 mph when temps are in the 90's. Some have devised special props for their engine bay lids that open the lids a few inches for better airflow. Some just stop every half hour or so.

I'm pretty sure one of the major reasons Pat kept the power output on this 2332 so low was to make sure it wouldn't overheat no matter where it was driven and no matter how much it was abused by drivers who weren't used to having to 'baby' an engine in extreme heat.

Again, if I lived where you do, I'd be talking to Pat directly about this and asking him for solutions.

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Thanks for your insight. The ambient temperature in AZ has been my main concern. Greg installs an external oil cooler fan. I'll have to research this to see if there's a better alternative than what comes with the car. Do you have brand recommendation?

Jake Raby contributed significantly to what is probably a 1,000 page thread on cooling on TheSamba. He’s extensively tested all kinds of cooling solutions over his ~25 years in the business.
Most cooling issues are due to cheap aftermarket shrouds, poorly fitting tin, and faulty separation of cool intake air and hot output air.
I never experienced a cooling issue of any sort after I installed my Thing shroud and TypeIV oil cooler. (No external cooler) According to Raby’s testing, it was second only to his DTM shroud in cooling efficiency. VW redesigned the Thing shroud imagining lower revs and less airflow. Based on my experience, it works.
The problem lies when people think a 911-look shroud with no internal baffling and an external cooler is going to cool like a properly baffled shroud. It doesn’t, and Raby has the numbers to prove it.
I really don’t understand why Pat D. uses them. Especially on an engine that costs as much as his do. The Concept 1 kit with a TypeIV oil cooler is only $300 more than a cheap Chinese shroud and probably similar to an inefficient 911-look shroud.

@Pat F posted:

Is much maintenance required with the Type 4?

I can’t see any reason it would be any different than a Type I: check your valve adjustment, carb adjustment, and timing (unless you have electronic ignition) every time you change your oil. Clean or change your plugs every 3-4 oil changes.

Interesting to say the least. You've given me some useful homework.

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Pat, there are a few major brands of coolers that are industry standards that Pat D. will be well aware of. Which model and configuration are best left to him to decide.

What's as important as the brand and model is how and where it's installed on the car. And having to engineer that is the kind of customization that Stan was referring to above. This is what forces them to pull a car out of the normal production process and what puts a big 'maybe' on the delivery date. It's exactly stuff like that that led them to standardizing on the engine configuration, installation, and gearing that they did. There are a lot of decisions that need to be made, and every choice influences all the others.

As others have suggested, I'd next try to drive one of Greg's 'out-of-the-box' builds to see, first, if you like driving these cars at all, and, next, if the standard build won't just do it for you.

From Phoenix, you could be in LA for a test drive a lot quicker than most of us. That would definitely be my next move.

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That's my plan.

Many feel that any engine over 1776 cc or so in a Speedster body can benefit from more airflow in the engine compartment.  The single grill with the rain shield doesn't allow a lot of airflow.  An engine hood with dual grills or functional louvers can increase the airflow.  Some have even added the ability to raise the rear of the engine lid for more air.

@dlearl476

*** Note to all, I have a 550 Spyder, not a Speedster.

First of all, Pat certainly knows what he is doing with respect to cooling fans and shrouds.

I would suggest that in a high HP type4, the much larger cylinder head and barrel fin area(barrels are HUGE in a 2650cc) vs type1 makes the 911 fan a better choice. Also, not having a cooler under the shroud to divert and balance the air pressure makes it an easier choice.

I have read much of the many threads about cooling over the years.

For what it's worth, my Jake Raby type1 of only 2165cc was built and dyno'ed with the 911 shroud on it. I will submit that I modified a 911SC air vane that bolts to the back of the alternator. I had to cut and bend the directional vanes to get more air to #4 cylinder.

My car doesn't run hot, in fact it runs pretty cool. Cylinder head temp is about 270 on a 95 degree high humidity day. There is about a ten degree variance on all 4 head temps, when I monitored that back in the day. It doesn't matter if I'm in traffic, highway, or pulling a long hill. There is plenty of cooling air running through it.

The single best thing I did to it were to make my own "sled tins". I made them in reverse from factory VW to duct the hot air to the rear of the car rather than straight down to the ground. That completely solved the CHT rising in idling/low speed/traffic situations.

The two changes I made have made my car totally reliable and consistently cooled.

I don't have the CHT gauges hooked up any more, there isn't a need.

I've been thinking about this more than I should.

I think we're getting bound up answering questions Pat isn't asking (but we think he should be). I never want to put words in somebody else's mouth, but I think what Pat's actual questions are:

1. Can a buyer specify something other than a "standard" 2332 T1 from VMC?
2. Would a T4 platform be better in a high-ambient environment like Arizona's deserts?
3. Would special provisions need to be made for reliable and consistent desert use?
4. Is there any limit to the power that can be reliably made operating consistently in a hot climate?

These are great questions.

A guy would have to call Greg directly to get the answer to Question 1, but I can guess that unless a buyer is OK with taking delivery of a car with no engine, the answer would be "no". There's just not an upside for the builder to start coloring outside the lines. Intermeccanica made their name doing special projects to an extremely high level, and Special Edition is doing the same thing, but Greg is going the route of standardizing everything he can to keep production moving and profits as high as possible. He used to customize because everybody else did, but then he got in a situation where Bruce's car (by way of example) has been 5+ years in the making. Greg doesn't want that and neither should you.

The answer to Question 2 is "absolutely", with caveats. As Danny mentioned, the heads on a T4 are huge, and the exhaust ports are where they are to optimize the cooling. All things being equal, T4s run a lot cooler than T1s. The devil though, is in the details. The T4 runs on wider bore centers, which make a huge (4"+) cylinders possible. Displacement is power and the whole thing just snowballs. The huge bores make huge heat and cylinder to head seal becomes a big issue. Big (100+ mm) cylinders need extra studs, etc. to keep from leaking pressure. The answer to the question is, "what kind of T4 are we talking about?" A T4 with a 95mm bore will run cool as a cucumber. Dr. Phil's new engine will not. Somewhere along the continuum is a happy-place. Where "happy" lives is subject to debate. Everybody agrees on the zipcode, but the actual address is an open question.

Regarding Question 3: if this were my car and I lived in the desert, I'd play every trick in the book to cool whatever I put back there as well as I could. There is no such thing as "too much cooling capacity". Speedsters don't get enough air to the engines -- none of them. The grill that looks so big and impressive is really pretty small and pathetic when you look at the free air making its way through the rain shield bubble. More air is critical, even if it's hot air. I drove my car from San Luis Obispo to Las Vegas in the summer with a high-compression 2332. Popping the deck-lid 2" made a 15 deg temperature difference. Some provisions need to be made if this is a permanent operating environment -- big oil cooler(s), extra air, all the things.

As to Question 4: ABSOLUTELY. Go to a Phoenix VW show and you'll likely see some guy's turbo 2387 T1. It's really, really cool -- but he trailered it there and will trailer it home. Ditto the guy running his 2276 with Comp Eliminators and two electric fans instead of a cooling shroud. He's got a drag car he trailered there to show off and he'll trailer it back home. Finding where the limit is where money goes to die. I've been trying for almost 20 years to find the fine line on a T1 where I can travel reliably across many state lines, then hammer the car like a nail in the mountains, making as much power as possible without breaking. Everybody who has ever endurance raced is looking for the same thing. It's a hard line to find with an air-cooled engine -- really hard with a T1, less hard with a T4, and easy-peasy with a Subaru EJ.

There it is. Greg's 2332 T1 works for 95% of the genpop. It might work for you. It might not. I'd recommend a drive to LA, taking one of his cars for a spin, and really talking to him about your expectations and concerns.

Forewarned is forearmed.

As Stan mentioned - The Subaru engine (and even their 5-speed transaxle) is another alternative.  Builders were offering them and when Speedster demand went up, they seemed to drop them due to extra complexity.  With a Subaru engine, you can have heat for defrost and AC - of course, a Speedster is not airtight so expect minimal results.  Subaru handles high heat and minimizes maintenance (no pesky valve adjustments or carb synching).  More power (EFI plus even Turbo) and smog compliant management too - at more cost and weight.

@DannyP posted:

@dlearl476

*** Note to all, I have a 550 Spyder, not a Speedster.

The single best thing I did to it were to make my own "sled tins". I made them in reverse from factory VW to duct the hot air to the rear of the car rather than straight down to the ground. That completely solved the CHT rising in idling/low speed/traffic situations.

Danny, I’ve been pondering what to do about lower sled tins.  Since you are using a 911 style shroud, you are pulling in your cooling air from the front of the shroud.  In a normal VW style shroud, air is pulled in from the rear.
A possible issue I’ve contemplated is the rear ducting of your sled tins would put the hot air right at the fan inlet of the VW fan. What say you guys?

It's better than having forward facing sleds scooping air backwards up the shroud.

My thinking on sled tins is that the area behind a car in motion is a low pressure zone. Dumping air into a low pressure zone (with the tins pointing back) dumps air into a vacuum, where it is dissipated behind the car. When the car is stopped, the cooling requirements go way down anyhow.

The difficulty is getting air TO the inlet of the fan, also pulling from that same low pressure zone. you aren't just fighting free air, you're fighting for air which is already in a vacuum.

Thanks Stan for articulating my concerns. I was worried that the input was taking another route.

I believe Greg no longer does a water cooled Subaru engine as I inquired. He briefly mentioned a T4 in passing, but I sensed he preferred to stay the stock route for a lot of the reasons everyone has mentioned i.e. ease of production and cost. Pat D. got a little concerned when he realized I was in the dessert climate. However, he never mentioned that the cooling capabilities of the T4 would be a better route. I think he was deferring to Greg.

That being said. If the T4 is a better alternative despite the cost, it might be my best avenue. I plan on heading out to Greg's place in a couple of weeks. An additional concern is that the production doesn't get prolonged with the T4.

"Pesky valve adjustments or carb synching" Please just STOP, Greg. If adjusting valves once a year is a problem for you, just shoot yourself.

And with good, slop-free linkage you don't have to touch the synch. This much I know for a fact as I'm out there in the real world DRIVING mine. I haven't touched mine in 5 years.

VMC is no longer installing Subaru motors in Speedsters, so you're not helping.

Rick, I've seen more than one Spyder with HVAC ductwork from the grilles to the cooling fan intake. No idea how that worked for them.

All I know is my head temps rose uncontrollably at idle or in slow stop/go traffic on a hot day WITHOUT the sled tins. That may have something to do with the axial fan not moving enough air at slow fan speeds. But temps definitely decreased with sled tins.

If you built an undertray to keep spent cooling air UNDER the car as well as exhaust heat like OG Spyders you'd be OK I think.

Let's make this simple:

1. Your only choices with a Vintager Spyder are properly built and cooled versions of either a T1 or t4 - period.
2. Pat Downs is one of the most highly recommended engine builders out there - trust his input.
3. When it's >100 in Phoenix you're probably not going to want to drive the Spyder anyway - certainly not when it's 115 or more.

The choice of T1 vs T4  seems to be the only choice to be made.  The T4 pros/cons have been mentioned previously.  Either engine will provide sparkling performance in a Spyder while one will cost more, be a bit torquier, and maybe cool a bit better.  If Greg will do either, then talk to Pat and follow his advice.

@Lane Anderson posted:

Let's make this simple:

1. Your only choices with a Vintager Spyder are properly built and cooled versions of either a T1 or t4 - period.
2. Pat Downs is one of the most highly recommended engine builders out there - trust his input.
3. When it's >100 in Phoenix you're probably not going to want to drive the Spyder anyway - certainly not when it's 115 or more.

The choice of T1 vs T4  seems to be the only choice to be made.  The T4 pros/cons have been mentioned previously.  Either engine will provide sparkling performance in a Spyder while one will cost more, be a bit torquier, and maybe cool a bit better.  If Greg will do either, then talk to Pat and follow his advice.

He is ordering a Speedster, but Lane's observations and suggestions are true and encapsulate the best advice in the long number of posts above.

This horse has been adequately flogged to death.

Perhaps we can discuss motor oil next.

Oops!

@Panhandle Bob posted:

Perhaps we can discuss motor oil next.

15W50 European Car formula Mobil 1. Plenty of zinc. Y’all do you. I’m doing me.

At least on a Spyder there is a lot more air getting to the engine and the exhaust is further away from its hot air getting sucked in.  That little gap above the flywheel and the VS circle or CMC 1/2 moon on Speedster is little intake.  I've seen area behind license plate cut out for more air (not very elegant though).

Do they still make glue from horses?