sportomatic/automatic/

I saw that IM makes an automatic Speedster. I am not very good with manual transmissions. Is it possible to put in an automatic or a vw or Porsche sportomatic in a Speedster. When I can afford a Speedster (year or two, or someone giving away a kit), it will be my day off in the summer car, and before that, my put it together on my day off car. I don't think it will be a rocketship.

Any ideas? (Other than the obvious: learn to use the clutch!!)

YELP!! a type 3 tranny out of a square back will easyly go with the type three mounts .But you lose the forks

If you have the time the forks can be modified, but it alot of work.(look in my file)
If I were to do it again, I'd go type 3 engine, tranny,& mounts all the way. loseing the forks.. That way if you wanted to go sportamatic or IM's Borg Warner which is a good tranny You can change it.easy..
You might even go type 4 automatic, But with upright tin,if thats possible?

You will have no problem using an automatic tranny in your speedster. You can bolt up a type 1 upright, no problem. You can do your type 4 upright conversion too, hard part is finding the flexplate. The automatic type 3 tranny is identical to the type 4's, just with different gear ratios. As said, they are really strong transmissions, and there is at least one shop out there that knows how to "upgrade" them and i'm bolting up a big type 4 putting out 200hp and they say it'll still hold up fine. I'm going the extra mile and adding in a tilton external electric oil pump to circulate the ATF through a filter and cooler, to increase the tranny life. If you have any more questions (pros/cons) to the automatic 003 tranny, let me know!

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

Charles: can you Give me the name and contact Info of the supplier of your tilton pump and i would like to know who re worked your transmissom and which one it is.
The type 3 is not as strong as a type 4

It's hard for me to imagine anyone wanting an auto trans in a Speedster replica, but "whatever". If building from scratch I would go with one of the early Porsche Sportmatics; this might be an expensive proposition - not so much the cost of the transaxle but the adaptation thereof to a VW engine.

Didn't VW offer a quasi-automatic in the Beetle and/or Ghia.

It had a shifter but no clutch.

I think I read that somewhere.

Jerome

Autostick, was only avalible in type one.
The type 3 notch and squareback and I think the 410 are the only fully automatic's of type one style 1600 cc,

IF you have arthritis you may wish to install it.

(Message Edited 12/9/2002 3:49:10 PM)

ahhhh Yeah, the old auto-stick..Dad bought one when I was 16. It had 3 speeds forward and reverse. Although it worked well, it was no performer, my friends with four speeds handed me my butt regularly. It had an electric contact in the shifter. The old habit of riding with your hand on the shift knob was hard to break. As soon as you touched it, the clutch activated. And if that little wire broke that lead to that contact(like mine did), you had a buckin' bronco! I did make a few bucks taking my friends for their driving test though, it was a breeze in that car!!

I think a consensus coming through is this: learn to shift yourself!!

It would be easier. Thanks for your input

Dan

Charles: can you Give me the name and contact Info of the supplier of your tilton pump and i would like to know who re worked your transmissom and which one it is. The type 3 is not as strong as a type 4.

Actually, the type 3 automatic is exactly the same to the type 4's automatic, just a different final drive ratio, geared to cruise at a lower rpm-- both transmissions bear a 003 part #. Only the busses received a variant of the automatic dubbed the 010 which supposedly is a little stronger, but is geared poorly for a performance application. Texas Bug Stop did all the work on my automatic tranny for me- with a rebuild and shipping both ways with a 2500 rpm stall speed TC it came out to about $900. I just went to tilton's web site and contacted them directly to find a retailer in my area. I would suggest you try that first. I did a quick search on google and found www.autometricsmotorsports.com/ as a dealer for the pump, but they sell in in a complete tranny cooling kit and maybe they would sell it individually. The only drawback to the tilton pump is that it draws 8-9 amps, which will put a greater strain on the charging system.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

This may sound like a silly question .But was the autostick avalible on type fours? If yes the extra Oil pump would be perfict for a oil cooler.

The autostick was never an option with the type 4. I am planning on doing an upright conversion type 4 in my '68 autostick ghia at some point, but it will take lots of retrofitting to make things hold up and actually perform up to par with the engine. The specs on the autostick's torque converter is peak 100HP. Another drawback is the 180mm clutch. The hardest part will be the lack of an appropriate flex plate compatible with the type 4 that will bolt up to the autostick's T/C. Another option, which I have not thrown out is acquiring a sportomatic (operates on the same principle as the autostick) from a 914 or 911, preferably the four speed, since it's good for 140HP in its stock form supposedly.

I'm hoping with my external atf pump, cooler, and filter that I will be able to successfully control my ATF temperature and extend the life, especially when pumping 170 HP and 185 ft/lbs of torque through it. If it doesn't hold up, I might try to have the clutch bands and other wear components cryogenically treated the next time around.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering

DON'T DO IT! Even the thought is killing me.

Charles I just got a email from a Kelly at Texas Bug Stop, One very interesting thing was he preffers the 71 stroke crank for these automatic's he did not go into details but I sent a email back .making more detail inquiries. no answer yeat, but they do re build owner cores.
If they would just send me the kit ,I,ll do my own build. it not that hard to do .Juut need good clean place to work in while you do it

To echo Bruce's words... DON'T DO IT!!! It's sacrilege! :-)

Hey guys, Barry has problem knees due to bad arthritis. I admire his gumption in figuring a way to fit an auto trans to get around his health issue. Kudos Barry.

What is a 'triptronic' some sort of manual/auto trans??? Doug

Barry,

I was able to find the rebuild kits at one point. I'll look into it further after the holidays. I might be able to dig something up there for you. I'm going to be putting almost 200 HP through my automatic, so we'll see how well it holds up. Was used in an Audi way back with 200+ HP, and it worked there. Why not now? Once modification I did have done (on top of the tranny upgrades) is to increase the stall speed to 2500rpm from 1850rpm.

Take care,

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering

Thanks on the rebuild kit,help for my spare tranny. There just has to be more out there. I understand about the higher stall converter for a more aggressive cam , that will help stop it from creeping up at stops, 2400 stall sounds right for a very mild cam ,,3/4 and above may take up to 3000 stall to let the car rest still in standing traffic.

I have no problem building a tranny it's enternals are very simular to a C-6 Ford. Not that I tring to apse the spanked pony car crowd.

I am still not totaly certain which crank I should run I agree that a 71mm stroke will give you good tork ,But I truly like the sound of a 69 mm type one crank, But to my understanding the only shorter stroke type 4 crank is a 66mm that would require 100 mm Jugs to get very close to the same displacement as a stock 2056 type 4. But the 66 crank verson would run much more like a very strong type one.

(Message Edited 12/20/2002 4:18:44 PM)

I'm building a 2320 (102 x 71) to pair up with my automatic and depending on which cam I ultimately choose, i'm looking at a healthy 180 ft/# and 170 HP. It'll be a torquey monster equipped with our Nickies cylinders and our plenum based fuel injection system. I couldn't imagine what such a powerplant would do in a spyder or even less in my squareback into which the engine and tranny are being transplanted.

I'm still searching for the rebuild kit. I'll keep you posted.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering

Thank you Charles! I kinda feel Jake, does not care for the 66 mm stroke for that matter, I too would rather have welded up 71 mm reground to 69 mm stroke but I bet it would be doomed to fail Its a stock type one trans, I still feel,if I could match the type one stroke it It would a factory type 1,like power curve,in a type 4 case it would be a very long lifed engine especialy with a raised rist pin location to hinder pinging you could even run 87 octane fuel.

I have a article here from HotRod Magazine, where they did somethimg simular to a 350 chevy I will post it in my file.

Well ,I guess I will not be posting the 350 article it would not upload. Anyway it's in the June issue of HOTROD Magazine a 4 page article they use a 327 crank in a 350/400 block with twisted wedge heads J&E pistons ,with a moved rist pin location, and ford 6 straigth six rods there 6,.209- inch long rods , 400 is bored 30 over. they bragg 408 HP on 87 octane.

(Message Edited 12/21/2002 2:52:32 PM)

I did some searching...go to carparts.com. They sell most every part for the automatic. I just searched under '72 squareback in my case and there it was.

Transmission Overhaul Package, Contains Gaskets; Seals; O'Rings; & Sealing Rings; Trans.: VW 00 3
Special order product / Usually ships in 10 - 15 business days.
ATP NGS-7 $64.99

I'll keep searching for a few other sources...

Charles

I had a interesting conversation, with a fellow this evening,just before dark,

He sugested I remove the factory tranny fiter,and install a 5/8 pick up line from the valve body to the flange inside the oil pan.

And a second pick up line also on the pan he said the pump would then be able to pull oil through a oil cooler and screw on filter no external pump required.

Both the oil cool and oil filter would be external then.

Do you think it would work ok? Or would it starve the tranny of fluid?

(Message Edited 12/23/2002 6:45:45 PM)

The same idea has been tried with CB's Maxi-sump for type 1 engines and it ends up restricting oil flow and killing your engine by oil starvation. My guess would be that the same problem would occur with the automatic if you did rig such a setup. If you could manage to plumb it on a pressure side rather than a suction side, that would be a different story altogether, but as far as i've been able to determine, there is no real easy way to get the ATF back into the transmission from the pressure out port that was optionally fitted with a temp guage.

On the other hand, it would be really easy to add an oil filter and cooler to an autostick, since you have ready access to all the pressurized atf lines, since they are all external.

No one has really ever tried to soup up a 003 automatic tranny and fit it with real filtration and cooling as far as I know. It comes with lots of complexities and a very high price tag. The only proof to me will come from monitoring the ATF pressure as well as the ATF temp under different loads and situations. All I know is that I'm going to be hard pressed to find enough dash space in my car for monitoring so many operating variables.

Charles Navarro

There is no easy way if i remember correct, the presure adjustments for the valve body on the automatic were normally done with the car on a dyno over a pit so it could be gaged, and adjusted under load at all speeds in all modes If your valve body was handled carfully and had no trash got near it when it was rebuilt there should be no problems . but tampering with the out presure to add a cooler would be very touchey. from what I am told by my freind the old certified Vw tech. Not a good idea. We discussed that idea as well. I guess it will just have to have a external pump ,But I am concedering a belt driven one .

Thanks Charles the overhaul kit and 2 modulators valves are one the way .I'll have spares, for the spares.

I considered the whole belt/cam driven pump route and for my application, it just doesn't fit in the engine bay with the rear hanger bar. Aircooled.net sells a dry sump multiple stage cam driven setup that might just do the job. You could also use an external belt driven dry sump pump, although they tend to cost more than the electric Tilton pump if memory serves me.

Charles Navarro

Charles, I now have found a new problem ,I need a flex plate for a type 4 automatic to mount the tork converter.

Has anyone out there got one? I think even the water boxer would work.

I Also believe. that balancing the flexplate and tork converter to the engine is going to be a chalange. But it must be done .If I can zero out the converter it may be posible to do the balance just on the flex plate, Sounds as if I need to find a expert, like Trans Speciaties in PA. That's my next inquirey.They may be able to zero out the converter.

I had a idea for a new oil pan made out of aluminum with fins under it that were in a air flow . Would that alone be enough to cool the tranny?

I was thinking of doing that too for my setup, to increase the sump capacity as well as to give me some space to add some fittings from which to draw the atf and return it after it reaches the cooler and filter.

I will cut out and make the case work for my tranny pan. But their's a Aluminum welding shop just up the road . Boy are they in for some fun. If I could find a 12 gage peace of ribbed sheet stock that would cool a lot better as a bottom. The more inner surface area to outside contact the better, A V pattern would be perfect.

(Message Edited 1/3/2003 7:09:43 PM)

ATT: CHARLES:

Carparts.com Caneled my Order for a overhaul kit for my second tranny So it looks like the Texas Bug Stop , or BUST

Darn! I hope that doesn't mean they are NLA entirely. If that's the case, it may mean moving upto a 021(?-- i forget the model classification) bus/vanagon automatic tranny, although the final drive ratio is going to be less than desireable, especially for a speedster.

Charles

I just Got off the phone with Don Haight in Virginia He has 2 kits...I bought one , and told him about you...

(Message Edited 1/25/2003 9:44:45 AM)

On Ebay, there is a VW dasher engine and auto transmission for sale. Is that the same as the Audi 100LS transmission that someone mentioned at some point.

I am not sure.. If it is a one peace unit NO . If the transaxle Is seperate It Just Might have the same aluminun band case. However the transaxle half would never work in a Bug.

To throw some more water on the fire, I spoke to an individual in the sand rail world and he said that often 003, 010, and 021 automatic trannies are used with engines producing upto 400HP without any reliability issues. So to ask our 003 trannies to hold up to 150-250 horses shouldn't pose too much of a problem :-)

Charles