Stabilizer bars--removed from Vintage Speedsters--why???

It seems from reading posts here that VS always removes the stock VW stabilizer bars from their Speedsters. Is this so? If so what is the benefit of removing such an important component?

Next--if the stabilizer bar is removed--wouldn't a smart thing be to replace it ----if so, what aftermarket one is best? Is it a simple bolt on affair?

Thanks to all!---Jack

My guess is they think it improves the ride - especially with the lowered front end (seems the sway bar would add a bit of additional springing). They are sometimes a pain to fit with lowered front end and the bumper braces. Yeah I think you need one front and rear.

Jack:

Anti-sway bars have been talked about on here a bit in the past. Try doing a search on that, or "roll bars" and see what you get.

Adding an anti-roll bar will make your car ride stiffer - the thicker the bar, the stiffer the ride. Usually one on the front is enough to make your car handle somewhat better. Adding a second one to the rear will make it handle really flat, like a go-Kart, but you'll sacrifice a soft ride for a harsh one.

Many folks who are looking for slightly better handling on their VS opt for a stock, 3/8" thick, front VW sedan anti-roll bar and mount it upside down beneath their Speedster in the front. You can use the stock mounting clamps, but I feel that those offered by CB and others are better, along with their Urethane mounting blocks.

Mounted upside down, it doesn't hang down much below the car and it clears the bumper mounts. Try just the front first. If that seems to be what you want, then you're done.

Doing the rear is more complicated: If you have an IRS rear (very seldom seen on VS's) then you can use another anti-roll bar back there. Again, thicker bars give harsher rides.

If you have a swing-axle rear, then you have to go the "Camber Compensator" route - a transverse mounted leaf spring across your axle tubes.

Just as an aside, I have 19mm (3/4") diameter "Sway Away" anti-roll bars front and rear, 7" wide rims and wide tires. Handles like a Go-Kart, can actually out-handle a Factory Five Cobra, but the ride is a bit harsh (you feel every crack in the road with tire pressure over 20 lbs).

You get a little, you give a little......

Gordon--many thanks--I like your advice as well as the other solid info from other members above.
This is a wonderful site with some terriffic folks!

Thanks---Jack

Jack; I noticed that and immediately installed a heavy bar up front (Bugpack or EMPI, can't recall) along with the urethane bushings and stainless steel clamps and an EMPI camber compensator in the rear. There is a huge difference in the way the car handles; the camber compensator is especially important since it eliminates wheel tuck on swingaxle cars during cornering which can be a life saver. I had to get the front bumper brackets modified to make the bar fit without interference.

Gordon, AMEN to all you said. I would just add - do NOT add a rear bar unless you also first add a front bar. Flat cornering - yeah. Had to add a grab handle for any unwary passengers.

My theory is: A trailing arm front suspension has no camber gain under cornering load. Suspension design does not allow it. So - only way to keep front tires square to the road is simply eliminate the body roll! A 3/4 bar does admirably. I hear they also have a 7/8 bar.

I also have a 3/4 bar on the rear irs. I am still surprised that I can actually slide the rear tires a bit on cornering and remain very controlled. I had always heard that once they break loose, a quick snap roll followed. Not true with these mods. And I ain't no Juan Pablo Montoya!

David,

What kind of bar do you have on the front?

Did you have to modify the bumper brackets?

Thanks.

Hmmm... I have a camber compensator, but no front sway bar, and my car has virtually no body roll. Maybe I'm not taking the corners fast enough ;-)

Has anybody ever looked into a narower front bar? I'd need to find one that's 6" shorter.

When I picked up my V.S. in August, I noticed that they had removed the front sway bar that had been on my '67 pan when I brought it in for the conversion. I have a flared model which seem to sit a bit higher than the standard.
I purchased a new Empi front bar and clamps and noticed a much flatter corning car. I wanted a sway bar in the back instead of the camber compensator. I found one at CIP, installed it in less than a hour, and noticed significantly firmer handling. But be very carefull of puncturing the fuel line when drilling into the frame horn to mount the bracket on the driver's side. They should mention this in the instructions, but they don't.
For the front, I did have to cut down the "U" bolts on the bumper bracket, and then there was no clearance issue.
I just modified a set of front brackets for a fellow Speedsterowers member by notching the bracket like the ones in Ricardo's picture.
For me, I will sacrifice ride cushiness for road holding ability any day of the week.

Robert--so what did Kirk say when you quizzed him on why he removes the stabilizer bar from the pans he uses? Is it because it is no longer needed for some reason having to do with the lighter body?

---Seems very odd to just omit something that many folks have said on this thread improves the safety and ride. Maybe someone has an answer to this.

I just looked at my front end ('67 pan) and there not only is no stab. bar but no place where one would be connected!

I ordered a camber compensator today because I read here that it will help the cornering and add safety even without the stab bar.

Thoughts?? Thanks----Jack

Jack:

The front stabilizer bar attaches beneath the lower trailing arm of the front suspension. It is attached with sleeve clamps (straps) that simply go around both the lower trailing arm and the stabilizer bar. There is a cushioning block between the trailing arm and the stabilizer bar and the clamp holds everything in place.

There should be no indication of a mount point on the pan/frame, since the bar is not attached to the pan/frame, only to the lower trailing arm.

Wish I had a picture.......maybe someone else can help here??

Tnx, gn

Jack,

If you take a close look at Ricardo's picture, you will see the red urethane bushings and the stainless clamps that are on them. It is a fairly straight forward install. Just remember that the smaller bushings and clamps go on closest to the shock mounts, and the bar goes on with the bend facing upwards. The bolts on the clamps can be a little hard to get started. I used an 8" "C" clamp to hold the clamps in place and get the bolts to thread up.

I'm going to Vintage on Monday and will ask Kirk about the front sway bar. My doors are rattling, and it driving me crazing. Hopefully he can get that fixed for me.

Jack, don't feel like the Lone Ranger here, the VW is the ONLY chassis I have ever seen that had the front anti-sway bar attached only to the suspension arms - and not attached to the chassis in any way. Of course the VW is also the only chassis I've seen that had a dual trailing arm front suspension. What about the 356 Porsche? I guess they must have had a similar setup?

The bad news is that the entire weight of the sway bar becomes UNSPRUNG weight. That ain't good for ride or handling. And those 3/4 and larger sway bars ain't light either.

Does anyone have a source for a widened (plus 5 inches) anti-sway bar? Haven't found any such thing on the internet. I am in the market or one. Can't even find a source that makes sway bars.

Cory; since there's narrow beams I guess there should be narrow sway bars available for those....not sure; I'm just going by gut feeling.

With respect to why VS removes the sway bars; I don't get it; they can still use the donor car's and not spend a single cent while making the car safer.

Hey Robert---what did Kirk say about removing the stabilizer bars?

All--I went ahead and bought a 3/4 " bar as none were available that I could find that were the thinner VW oem size.
So the next mystrey is why are all the stabilizer bars 3/4" rather than the thinner original size???

I won't ask why it's called "the madness" --I get the picture!

---Jack

Hey Jack,

I asked Kirk today about front sway bars. He said that they usually are not installed, an option it item he said. He seemed indifferent about them. He said they could be installed, but that they must be installed upside down in order to clear the bumper brackets. I don't know if this will change the effectiveness of the sway bar, but it does create a clearance issue over speed bumps. I noticed that Jim Ignacio has his upside down, and he has to really watch his going in and out of driveways and over speed bumps.

If you need you brackets modified,and there is no one who can do it locally for you, I'd be happy to help you out. It's a quick fix. I do a lot of metal fabrication.

Just let me know?

Robert

Robert,

Did Kirk at VS give you any ideas on the door rattles?


Marty

Robert--very interesting. So the answer is that there really is no reason. How strange.

I found and ordered a stabilizer bar that was mentioned by a VS owner earlier in this thread that goes on with no mods and does not hang down. It looks like one that is flat, rather than having the curves I have seen on some. Just eyeballing my car I believe the clearance will be fine---as he said his was.

If indeed my new sway bar goes on slick --it would have saved a lot of searching around here, the Samba and various parts houses to see what will work with my VS. Wouldn't it be so nice to have a cross refrence that shows what part fits what Speedie manufacturer's car?

Sorta like:

VS Cars:

Stabilizer bar: Whichever one I ordered--if it really works
Cars with 009 Distributors with points: Pertronics model 1847V
To balance wide 5 wheels: The Mainley wheel adapter
Fan belt size: Gates #7345 3/8 x 35 - 1/8 (At least that's on my car)
Plug and play carbs to replace Kadrons: ??? (I'm still looking!)
Camber Compensator: C B Competition

Anyway you all get the idea. This assumes all VS years are the same
so maybe a breakdown by year would be helpful.

--Thoughts? Contributions?----Jack

Jack,

Let me know the outcome, I too have a 2007 VS on a 1966 Chassis but its a widebody with the large tires. I would like to know how the Sway Bar and Camber Compensator work on your car. These are items I am contemplating too.


Thanks,

Marty

Hey Marty,

Kirk just had one of the guys fix the doors. I was in the office talking to him, so I didn't see what the fix actually was. Am I assuming it included tightening the two Philip's head screws that are on the aluminum door plate.

Thanks Robert,

I am in Chicago, so I guess I have to give Kirk a call.

Marty

Sway bars don't have to be solid and heavy. Check out this link to Elephant Racing's 944 hollow sway bars. http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/swaybars/944swaybars.htm

Tomm

HEY LANE!!

THEY'VE GOT A "BUMP STEER CORRECTOR" FOR YA!!

http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/bumpsteer/914bumpsteer.htm

Just remember that a 914 front end is a VW Pan in disguise and their "14mm Rod End" looks suspiciously like a Heim Joint.

and they've got a cool logo, too: http://www.elephantracing.com/images/logowear/pinupdecal400.jpg

Jack - here is a thought on your "this part for this car" line:

Over the past six years, I have gnenerated my own Owners / Maintainance Manual for the speedster. It mimics the factory type 1 manuals, with the same sections and organization. The ONLY things in my manual are all those items that are DIFFERENT from a beetle. It is amazing how large this thing has gotton as I have modified the vehicle in specific ways. I include all dimensions, and a few sketches, of fabricated parts - in case of replacement. Have custom wiring diagrams for MY car (Viseo works great, but later changed to Powerpoint - lunch hour project at work). Documented all the parst and sources that I've used. That darn manual is housed in a 3 inch ringbinder and is all captured on M'soft Word. At first it was just a labor of love, but later I found I used the Manual quite a lot as you make changes and move on, forgetting exactly what you did.
You may want to do the same - document your car - not forget and move on - that's just for us old fahrts.

David--man--that is a very smart idea. Right now I am just trying to document what I've got going in ---for example the fanbelt is an oddball size and the spares I bought "for a type 1 VW" are 'way off.
That's just one example.

I'm too much of a Newbie to have already made mods to document but I sure will as time goes along. All my stuff is in files now but I do want to get it organized in a book like you have done.

You know--something as basic as "jacking points" had to be discovered.
I hope no one ever gets this car but if they do they will have a huge headstart on where I was at first.

I won't forget going to 6-8 tire delaers to have wide 5s balanced. That ain't gonna happen here in Hot Springs,Arkansas and I finally found that Maneley (sp?) adapter.

I have to admit though--I'm loving every minute of it!---Jack