Starter issue ?

I am having an intermitent problem.
When you start the car it will turn over for a second and then the engine freezes up....won't turn over. Then when you turn the key it acts like a dead battery. If you then put it in gear, engage the clutch, let it roll a little and let the clutch out.....it will then start just fine. And I won't have the problem again for several weeks

Any suggestions?

Loose starter mounting bolts?

Thanks for any help
Jay

Hmmm. Start simple. Check the battery. If that's okay, next would be the charging system. Hopefully, it's just a battery getting ready to fail.

Check the:

The starter bolts for dead tight.
The solenoid.
The main line from the battery nutted to the solenoid.
The small spade plugged into the back of the solenoid.
The battery connections.
The small red wire fitted to the positive battery cable.
Look for 14 volts coming from the positive battery terminal while running.
Only if you have a GENERATOR, pull the positive battery cable while running, the car will die if the charging system is faulty.

If all of these look good, swap out the starter, and look at the gear teeth on the old one for wear and smooth/missing.

Then the key switch, but unlikely, given that a little forward roll sets you up for a start.

Lastly, DEAD last, it may be the flywheel . . . but we all hope not.

I just had the same problem with another vechile. Turned out to be a bad bearing in the starter that was causing it to drag, but not all the time. Had the shop replace the bearing for the fix. $50.

Does sound suspiciously like a mangled flywheel tooth or mechanically bad starter though.

If it IS just the starter bearing or possibly even a bad starter bushing in the trans/bell housing, and you don't want to have to chase the old out and new in (sort of a pain,) pick up a "self supporting" VW Beetle semi-automatic starter. I got the last two that my local AutoZone had in stock, but you could find one elsewhere or surely on-line.

Luck,

TC

Jay, if this happens only for a hot start, such as at the gas station after a fill up, you may have heat soak of the starter. I had this problem, changed the battery and went to the IMI-101 gear reduction starter. Problem GONE! My battery is very small and lives in the engine compartment and I have 9.8:1 compression....

It only happens when the engine is cold. Once it's started it won't happen for days. The first time it happened I charged the battery.....the battery is fine.
I am going to do a tune up this weekend and will check all the bolts and connections then.
Thanks Guys
will let you know what I find
Jay

Can someone explain why the gear reduction starter would start the car better when it is actually turning it over slower than the regular starter???

Troy,

You may have misunderstood the post. What I think Danny meant was that, as long as he was replacing the starter anyway, he put in a high torque model that turns the engine faster than the stock starter. Amperage draw on a high torque starter will likely not be less than a standard starter, but higer revs usually mean the engine starts easier and quicker.

As a starter wears, amperage draw can increase with increased resistance. Any auto electric shop should be able to test the amperage load of a starter on the car, narrowing the option of causes of hard starts. Intermittent problems can be tougher to diagnose: bad spot in the windings, intermittent poor ground, etc. First choice for hard start is always the same: check, clean, and tighten all connections. Then get out the meter to check for current drop.

I think that if you can reach up and give your solenoid a few raps with a hammer you'll be OK until better weather lets you change the solenoid. You might get away with disassembling the solenoid and cleaning up the copper disc and the contact if you're handy, but be careful not to remove much material or bigger clearances will repeat your problem. Better just a new soleniod.

That is, IF your grounding contacts are tight and clean throughout, including the starter mounting bolts. Check all that first.

Jim.
I got the impression the the gear reduction starters actually spin slower, but have more torque from this Samba post by kenwilfi. Maybe the guy was just wrong.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=399813&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Troy, I don't profess to be an electrical guru, but here's my understanding. High-torque starters are constructed differently than conventional starters. Conventional starters have an armature, i.e., a pattern of small wires on the outside of the rotating shaft, but inside the starter casing. The current goes through the armature. These normally work well, and are cheap to produce, but are not very effective with high-compression engines that may need more torque to turn the flywheel faster.

With a high-torque starter, a permanent-magnet motor is used. The rotating shaft on the starter motor has magnets imbedded in the rotor, which creates the magnetic field. This different style of power delivery means less amperage is used internally, meaning more effective power to the drive gear. Long story short, with the same battery and wiring, you get more torque and higher rpm's to the flywheel, and an easier start for high compression engine. I replaced the standard starter in my CB 2110 many years ago, with a notable difference in starting ease.

I'm sure there are knock-offs made in China that may not give good service. I bought mine from a local VW shop that gave me a 1-year guarantee that was never needed.

Hope this helps.

I have to agree that it sounds like the bushing in the bell housing is worn or . Worse thing would be a crack in the bell where the bushing goes..

You would have to find a guy that welds magnizium to save it.. but it can be saved..

I dont have to worry I run a type 3 starter . (no bushing required). but the new reduction drive high tourque starts also dont need a bushing .

2 bolt on options..

Barry...any recommends on where to get the best deal on a good reduction type starter ? Thanks...

Troy- the IMI starters are gear reduction, just as you've heard. They spin the engine more slowly than the stock starter (when the stock starter is working properly). The gear-reduction starters are better in every other way.

They don't rely on a bushing in the bell housing, like the standard Beetle starter. They'll easily spin a big high-compression motor with a small-ish battery. A stock starter won't- even when everything is perfect.

You'll never notice the motor turning over more slowly with the gear-reduction starter, because it spins a heck of a lot faster than a standard starter that's heat-soaked and bound up in the bell housing bushing... and the engine actually starts. I've been running one this summer- 100 deg, hot engine, 10:1 compression, advanced distributor- no problem.

They work.

Did a tune up this weekend....cars running great. Also tightened every nut and bolt within reach
Found a couple of losse exhaust nuts but nothing else, also cleaned all the electrical connections.

Now all I have to do is wait till it does it again....so I can figure it out

Jay

I use the auto stick starters (self contained nose cone with no bushing) in everything..no issues to date.

Dr Clock,

Is there a part # for that?

Jay

Advance Auto Parts and ask them to order a Type 1 VW Beetle starter for an auto-stick

Alan..are those auto stick starters known to be sufficient for larger engines or those with high compression too ?

Back in the early '70s, I had the same problem with the starter in a '67 912.
The contacts on the piggy-back mounted solenod would get dirty. I would remove the starter; then clean and invert the contact bar. This usually worked for about 6 months, and then the problem would re-appear.

Eventually I replaced the starter with one listed for an "auto stick" VW. (It was the same stock number as the one listed for the 912, but was considerably less expensive). I had the car for three more years and never had the problem again.

The Autozone person that I got did not recognize the term Auto Stick, but quoted me on a starter for an automatic transmission..$49.95 plus $15 core charge. Part number is 16300. Would that be the one we're looking for?

Ooops, I called Autozone by mistake. Advance carries the same pn but is $48. with a $10 core charge. Still need to confirm if Auto stick is just what those parts guys call automatic. Thanks.

Yes....autostick = automatic

I have used the Autozone and/or Advanced units with very good success in the past.

Just don't bring in your old starter at the time you buy the new one. They may give you a hassle with the core. Bring it back at a later date.

And while I don't have any specs...the autosticks appear to be much more beefier.

David, the largest motor I had it on is a 1915 so can't say for sure.

Could any of you lads with the larger engines...possibly with higher compression say what starter you're using ? Jack, Cory, Rich ..
anyone ? Thanks.

2332, 10:1. IMI high-torque starter.

CB .Performance has a good one ..so does Cip-1.. Or Empi You need to ask a builder which one he likes best.. Im running the type 3s ..on my little motors

2,110 8.5:1 compression

Stock, rebuilt (locally) T-1 starter.

Seems to be doing OK for the last 12 years, although I did have a spell of intermittency a while back, so I cleaned up all of the connections and haven't had problems since (it's doing OK right now.....)

Oh......and I have a "starter relay" on the engine firewall (protected from road splash) that's run by the starter switch and provides a full 12+ volts to the started solenoid. That seems to help.

gn

BTW: Getting back to Jay's original problem; Any starter can develop "dead spots" on the armature such that when the starter hits one of them it just sits there like it's dead (which it is). Starting the engine without the starter and subsequent vibration causes the starter armature to move slightly, getting around the dead spot, so the next time - - it starts......Maybe. The cure is to have the starter rebuilt, and they should either clean/polish and true the armature with emory cloth on a lathe or, if it's badly pitted, replace it with a new armature. Once that's done, it's essentially a new starter (OK, so they should be adding new bearings and so forth, too) and it'll crank over like crazy. Do you need a "high torque" starter? I doubt it. Just a rebuilt one.

gn

FYI thier a 2 types of these 2 VW starters .

A 2 brush type.. (Standard)
A 4 Brush type.. .(Heavy Duty) Most disirable of the stock parts.

But I do have a reduction drive type on m Elcamino and it very tough.. it uses Datson parts Anything like that is also very good

If you can find it at all.. Advance Auto and ask for a Robert Bosch verson.. The heavy duty one.. it's tha same one used on type 3 VWs


But you can add 2 brushes to any of them and make it a heavy duty..

Jay, I also learned some very important facts about VW Type 1 starters shortly after I purchased my half-built CMC. The motor was a 2180cc out of a dune buggy, and seemed to always have a hard time starting. The 10:1 CR and Chevy rods did have something to do with it, in addition to the size of the motor.

I saw the ads in the VW mags about High-Torque starters and immediately bit. The engine did in fact spin faster with the new starter, but would hang up occasionally, requiring a new attempt at starting. Eventually, I got alarmed and removed the motor for a variety of cures. I was shocked to find that the flywheel ring gear had several teeth a little chewed up. First, I thought that I needed a new starter pinion bushing, but research revealed that the High-Torque starter did not require a bell housing bushing. Further research showed that there were such parts as 6-volt flywheels and 12-volt flywheels, which have slightly different diameters and teeth spacings on the ring gears.

The flywheel on my motor turned out to be a 6-volt, 5 pound racing flywheel, to which I had mated a 12-volt High-Torque starter. AAAHHHHHHHHHH!!! I hate it when that happens.

I did install a new flywheel and all is good in the starting department. At the same time, I reduced the CR to 8.75:1. So far, so good.

Live and Learn.

Chuck