Starters, Coils and EI - Fritzed or Fryed

1955 T1, CMC named Elsie
Preamble: So I had a few upgrades done at Munks, the #1 garage in Michigan. Chris, the Master, wanted to show me the rumble of the engine now that we tweaked it a little (that's another post), and grabbed the key to switch it on, the engine turned over and then cut out immediately, we were "both" surprised. He turned the key again and VRROOOM, everything is OK. He jiggles the key and the engine cuts, it is always something new and that was not busted before taking it in the shop-but the engine was running and this appeared to be minor (says I can switch a starter out easily if it is a problem) he sends me on my way and I had a great ride home from the shop! Two days later the "jiggle" and cut out is worse and just going over a few michigan potholes cuts the engine, a litle downward pressure on the key brings it back to life. I call Chris from work, swing by and he "gives" me a new Calterm 42410 Universal starter.

The Amble: So I figure my 11 yr old son should learn how to install a starter with me coaching. We discon the battery, pull the old starter out and carefully, terminal by terminal he moves the wires from the old starter terminals to the new starter and I check to confirm each time that he has moved and tightened the leads on the new starter (we even took a picture before we started just in case. We recon the battery. He is happy, I am proud papa and I tell him to start er up! He turns the key to the right and VRRROOM!(first clue) His expression after that was "priceless" I tell him to jiggle the key, he does and no problem so I figure it is a job well done and we decide to take her out of the garage for an "around the block" The engine was loud in the garage, as we got outside my son says he hears a "noise"
After a "push-back walk home" with some "helpful" passers by (one of which is german & says he owns an original 59 A coupe and and wanted to know if mine was an original ;->>)I thought I'd now teach my son how to "problem solve." Grabbed the multimeter and started in.... see next post.

Solenoid stuck and didn't retract the drive gear? THAT makes an interesting noise . . . 'till there IS no more gear.

Post-Amble: So I have my son step through each action he took and we confirm the steps are right, compare the picture and wiring is right, battery is OK, lights, gages OK by turning the key to ON position (I have nothing hooked up to ACC). Now there is a little "thunk" from the engine as we turn it to ON. Nothing in the ON-ON position (past the spring). So now the multimeter. In the Off position the Batt to IGN and the BAT to ST show 12.5V, that is OK. In the ON position the IGN shows 0.2V and the ST shows 0.14 V, I think this is not OK. In the ON-ON position the ST still shows 0.14V. So it appears to us tha the "new" CALTERM Switch is allowing voltage to pass through the ST terminal even in the ON position. Then I think I understand, when my son turned the key the first time he only turned it to the ON position when it started the engine, The noise leaving the garage was the COIL juicing the EI, finally I think the coil overheated after about 30 secs of driving this way, fritzed, maybe the EI as well.

So any experience with these CALTERM starters? They do not have a web site, the wiring seems correct, the old starter worked fine for a year except the key slot jiggled too much just since being in the shop. Pertronix web site (my newly installed EI) says that if you leave the key in the ON position for more than 30 sec while the car is NOT running you will overheat the coil and damage the EI. Wouldn't that refer to the ON-ON postion rather than the ON position (I mean what would all the guys who like to sit in their car at night with a beer and a SI Swimsuit mag and listen to the radio do after all)? Pertronix says it does not apply to the ACC switch (I have nothing on it amnyway).

I figure I need a little advice before going back to Munks with the problem. I am counting on at least a new Bosch 009, perhaps a new PERT EI as well. I will attempt to rewire the old starter and measure the voltage across its terminals (provided I can jiggle the key). What should be switched in the ON and the ON-ON positions?

Thanks TC, the noise was first heard in park (out of gear) and was not a gear grinding noise, more a low whirring sound like the starter typically makes (hindsight...). Switching the key from OFF to first position ON with an engine turnover is the primary symptom. If I had done the first ignition I would have noticed earlier, but may still have not realized it was bad news...I may be wrong but I do not think there is a solenoid between the starter and the coil/EI. I was looking for my wiring diagram....can't see one anyway

Ok I rewired the old Calterm starter (same model) and measured. I get 12.5 volts across both ST and IGN when in OFF position. In ON postion I get .02V across IGN and 12.5 across ST, so OK, in ON-ON position I get .02V across ST, so it is OK (except for the jiggling key problem). I still got a light thunk from the engine area once but not after the first try.

So I apparently replace a bad starter with a bad starter (fresh out of the sealed package?) I know these only cost $6 but get real. Now I need to check the coil - what should I get coming out of the coil to the EI? I'll leave the old bad starter on to check it..

BTW I think the "thunk" I hear is the coil initially attempting to move the EI arm, other ideas? It only happens once after I have not been playing with it for a while, then there is no thunk when trying the starter.

OK after putting the old starter and new starter back on and measuring here is what I get:

OLD Off ON ON-ON
Batt -> IGN 12.41v 0.15v 0.02v
Batt -> ST 12.41v 12.07v 0.03v
Coil -> EI 0v 0v 9.94v

NEW Off ON ON-ON
Batt -> IGN 12.42v 0.14v 0.06v
Batt -> ST 12.42v 0.15v 0.12v
Coil -> EI 0v 9.62v 9.59v

So does this appear to be a BAD NEW Starter as it switches to the coil in ON mode and since the coil is discharging does it mean the EI is the bad device now??? Am I measuring the correct V from coil to EI?? Correct location --Red wire into Coil and Red wire out to EI?

Please advise...

Either way it sucks that I replaced a jiggly key BAD OLD starter with a "premature ignitor" NEW BAD starter! I figure I can get Munks to do a house call now . . .

Any recommendations for starters? I am done with Calterm! This one's already cost me a georgeous weekend out with the speedster!

I know my posts were a bit long, but I needed a vent. I would also like to learn from experience on the EI from Pertronix, is it true that the EI will burn out if the car is not running and the key is in ON position?

So my wife was reading through my posts and pointed out that what I call a "starter" above is really the "Ignition Switch" and not the starter - (all of the voltage metrics come from the ignition switch) sorry for the goofball lexicon!

I was reading through the engine forum (where I shoulda posted this string as my wife also pointed out) I saw the "intermittent solenoid post" so I tried the rock-n-back-n-forth to see if the solenoid on the starter was stuck and no joy - all I get is a soft "click" when I turn the key to start position. At this point I have rewired the old "jiggly key" switch which at least switches correctly. So I am back to thinking it is a fried coil.

Any thoughts...?

No wonder I was a little confused; I was going to say go with a new or rebuilt by Bosch unit but...thanks for clarifying. If it's the ignition switch you're talking about why don't you contact Vintage Speedsters? I've not heard any complaints about their ignition switches; which I believe are made by Stewart Warner. If you want to go the more authentic route you could contact Jim at Klasse356.com, Stoddards or Mid America Motorworks for a Porsche replacement.

All fixed, $400 tow, parts n labor later...

Turns out the ignition was internally wired wrong by the Chinese factory as verified by Munks garage on a fancy multi. The starter did get its Bendix ground up, (like TC hinted at), confirmed it by Alan's advice to lift the RR wheel and attach the power cables, replaced with a used Bosch in good shape, the Coil was Ok but the Pertronix Ignition was fried - just like their web site said it might.

Calterm, the ignition company outta Wisconsin is on my S*** list until they call me back. Basically I have two ignition units from them, both faulty, one cost $6 to replace, the other $400 all in. I am going after them to see if they'll compensate any - probably not worth my time but it seems like fun (its raining out anyway).

SO - IMHO DO NOT BUY FROM CALTERM if their ignition switch says Made in China.... I have a new American Ignition now that works much better (but cost $26). Now lets see if they do the right thing (but don't hold your breath).

Thanks to those who responded!

Ron

Ron...

Glad to hear that you got your ignition/starter stuff all sorted out!
I imagine that a lot of our fellow SOC members have been through the same frustrating shenanigans with these cars at some point in time. At the very least we should be that much the wiser.

NOW GET OUT THERE, FIND A NICE STRETCH OF ROAD AND DRIVE!! Have fun..

Peace - Out!

Perhaps the wife should be teaching the son???

Just a thought...;-)

Niiice.

When we went to Munks Garage (he lets you do the work and only charges for specialist time as it it used) they were great with my son, showed him how they tested the ignition on the multi for continuity to prove that "he did it right!" Great for his confidence. Then they gave him a "Master Mechanics Chromed Wrench" as a token to welcome him to the gearhead community. (Munks logo is a wrench so it fits).

Nice when someone steps up to take the time to show a kid something and do so with enthusiasm to peek his or her interest.

I remember as a 9 y/o, my dad's friend was a trucker, he took the time out of his day to take me out for a half hour ride, man I was in absolute heaven that day! ...How that stuck in my mind !
However, I've driven an 18 wheeler some thirty four years - three million miles.
If, my dad's friend were alive, I'd have no choice but to shoot him for giving me such a hair brained idea!
End of Hi-jack (poor choice of words)

Hey Alan...whew, thank God he didn't take you to the ballet!!

Good one Jim :)

Ron,

I was a little confused when first following your post, too. I have been having trouble with my Ignition Switch. I got tired of trying to figure out where it came from (Metalcrafters Chassis--78 Rabbit column, I think). Anyway, I just picked up a cool hi-amp toggle switch and push-button for the starter and mounted on the dash, outlaw hot-wire style. Key only locks the column now.

Craig Smith