Starting over - help me select the right engine

Why not a stroker? 

X2

I'd recommend chico:  http://www.thesamba.com/vw/cla...etail.php?id=1507451

 

or CB:  http://www.cbperformance.com/

Reliability.  VW strokers have had issues.

Well.... not really.

I would imagine that has to do with who does the build and what the quality of the components are, but I am not much of a wrench and I am sure there are a variety of opinions on the topic which I believe you will now begin to get.......

 

My experience with my 2110 stroker have been really good. I don't know the builder but the engine itself has been flawless for what I estimate to have been 10k miles between the previous owner and myself. Stan can vouch for my engine.

 

Whatever you chose, I hope it works out for you.

I realized when I started this thread that the pro-stroker crowd would try and change my opinion, but I am not an opponent to stroker motors as I have built some wicked V8 Ford strokers.  That said, and to BobG's comment above, *supposedly* per the previous owner, the motor was built by one of the premier guys in the VW racing world.  Too bad he built my motor the day the day he ran out of Plastigages.

 

The flip side of this is that I dont need 120 HP in a car with four drum brakes, no roll bar, and the crash protection of a beer can. 

 

So - what non-stroker ideas you got?

I'm a fan of displacement; the bigger it is, the better the torque curve (which translates into useable low-end/midrange power on the street). A 78 mm stroke x 94mm piston (2165cc's) that revved to 6,000rpm and built right would see the same life span as a stock stroke (69mm) motor and be a heck of a lot more fun! 130-140 hp would be easily attainable, and yes, the lack of discs up front may become an issue.

 

Your mechanic is closed minded; if you truly cannot be talked into a stroker, a 1915cc motor (69x94- again, bigger is better) with an Engle W110/1.25 cam/rocker combo (or anything that gives about 6,000rpm peak) and ported stock valve dual port heads along with dual carbs would still be fun. What do you have for carbs and exhaust?

 

And even with a stock stroke motor, discs should strongly be considered...Al

Perhaps I wasn't clear. When I said I don't know who built my engine, that is precisely what I meant. The previous owner didn't know who built the engine either, it was in the car when he acquired it and he didn't ascertain the builder.

 

All I was trying to do was understand why a stroker was off the table, and as you asked, provide an idea. 

 

You didn't provide any significant  information about your car or parameters in your original post, so I didn't know you already had ruled out a stroker.

 

I have no interest in changing your, or any one else's mind. Your car, your money, do what you want.

 

Good luck.

 

Oh yeah, I'm not part of any "pro stroker crowd", I just know that this particular engine works well in my car at this moment.

I'm not really sure what to say, so the best would probably be to say nothing at all. But since that's not my nature, I'll wade in to a discussion with nothing to gain and everything to lose.

 

I know you've got to trust somebody, but it looks to me like you're trusting the wrong people.

 

If the previous owner claimed the build was from one of the "premier guys in the VW racing world", did he show you receipts? "Premier", according to whom? The mechanic telling you strokers are more prone to failure than stock-stroke engines-- has he built more than a couple of strokers? Because an increase in stroke can't make an engine less reliable in and of iteslf-- over-revving a stroker, yes; bad rod-ratio, yes; poor oil pressure, yes; cruddy parts, for sure; unknowing/uncaring assembler, absolutely.

 

But stroke as the sole determinate variable of reliability? I'm not sure what to say.

 

Lastly, buying an engine from a place that doesn't build them (Mid America Motorworks, JC Whittney, et al) means with near 100% certainty that you are buying a GEX, which is like flushing money down the toilet.

 

I'm not ripping on you. Over the years, I trusted a bunch of the wrong people too. I've had no less than 6 engines built, and it's only the last two that are really "right". Two of the worst engines I every paid to have screwed together were stock-stroke 1776s. It wasn't the stroke that made them reliable or not.

 

If you want to hold the stroke to 69 mm because you are looking for <100 hp, that's a good reason. If you want it because you've been told it's more reliable, that's not.

 

If I were looking for an honest 90 hp (not the "90" of the MAMW engine), I'd do a 1914 with Cima/Mahle cylinders, a counter-weighted crank, and H-rods (I could be sold on I-rods-- but really, the nice ones are $100 more). I'd get some CB Los Panchitos heads and an Engle 110 or 120 cam. I'd set the C/R at about 8.5:1 for the 110, or 9:1 for the 120.

 

I'd find a set of Dellorto 36s and get a CB hex-bar linkage, and port-match the manifolds. I'd come up with a Bosch SVDA distributor (w/ solid-state pick-up) somewhere, and run a Bosch blue coil. I'd cool it with stock VW tin (from Ultimate Powdercoating) with all the flaps and the thermostat, or maybe the Scat 36 hp tin with the flaps and thermostats added.

 

I'd get an A1 sidewinder in 1-1/2", and get a set of flanged heater boxes (also 1-1/2"). I'd eliminate the mechanical fuel pump and run the Carter rotary pump. I'd get a lightened flywheel, and a Kennedy stage 1 pressure plate. I'd get the entire rotating assembly balanced. This engine would run for 75-100K mi without anything but a bunch of valve-adjustments and oil changes.

 

It would also cost a lot of money. It'd be 3- 5x what a GEX motor would cost. It'd also be a real engine, and not "sweep the garage out" build. For another $1000 you could get an 82 mm crank, a bigger cam, and some bigger Dellortos and make 150- 175 hp, but we've already been there.

 

No matter what you do, please put disc brakes on the front before you do anything else.

 

Lightspeed (or whatever your name really is):

 

I would highly suggest that you do the following, more or less in order:

 

1.  Order a new 1776-1915 non-stroker engine from either CB Performance or Chico 

Why?  Because everyone we know of on here who have bought engines from either of those places have been happy with them AND if they do have minor problems they are quickly fixed without a lot of fuss.

 

2.  Be happy with the performance you receive from your new engine.  It will be barely more than a stock, original 356A with a "super" engine, but it will be nostalgic performance.  

 

3.  Research a bit more on here about the reliability of so-called "stroker" engines.  I doubt that you will honestly find anyone running a stroker who has had "reliability" problems with the long block.  Carb problems, yes.....ignition problems, yes....general parts issues with the Asian crap we have to put up with these days for replacement parts, yes.....but those sorts of problems will happen on ANY motor, whether it has been stroked or not.

 

4.  Dump your "mechanic" and find someone who is more in tune with what people are running in these cars these days.  If you have truly built stroked Ford V8 engines (and I have honestly built four stroked 59/AB Flatheads, each bored over .300 and each over 300 HP) then you should KNOW that stroking an engine that is built right will not affect reliability (one of my flatheads was built in 1972 and is still running today with over 200,000 miles on it).

 

Regardless of your opinion of stroking an air cooled VW, I truly believe you will be far more satisfied running a vanilla, relatively small displacement/low horsepower engine that you will perceive as "reliable" and be happy with it.

 

You might also ask on here who, if anyone, has ever bought a complete engine from Mid-America or JC Whitney.  I've been on here for over ten years and never seen one from either of those sources.  A couple of disasters from GEX and a few others from other no-name places, but most of our engines come from less than five sources and those two don't make the line-up.

 

Forewarned is forearmed.

 

BTW:  Marksbug was right on when he mentioned the probable cause of your last engine throwing a rod - reducing the oil's ability to lubricate because of gasoline in the oil from dribbling through and overloading the carb.  That had nothing to do with it being a "Stroker" engine and had everything to do with zero oil viscosity.  

 

Do you hear that sound Gordon? That's the sound of the earth grinding to a halt.

 

I'm about to do something I never thought I would:

 

Lightspeed: buy a Subaru.

I have 31,000 miles on a Jake Raby 2165 that happens to be a, oh no, dare I say it? STROKER! 78mm by 94mm bore, in fact. Makes 180hp at 6000 rpm at the flywheel, all friggin day long. Or in my case, 31,000 miles. Yes, really! Does it run hot? No. Is it a pain to keep in tune? No. Just change the oil and adjust the valves, and pound the crap out of it! And put disc brakes on the front. Drums, seriously?

 

GEX? You must be mad, delusional, or on drugs. Similar to Motor Meister of 911 fame. Garlic and crosses and silver needed for sure..........

Tell me about the cam, Danny? Split-lobe Web, correct? 86b/? Standard lobe centers (108*)? Advanced at all?

 

Inquiring minds, and all that.... 

I'm pretty sure it's standard centers and not advanced. Some day I'll split the case and find out.......

 

But yes, 86B is correct!!!

Wow.  

 

My name is Brad if it makes a difference.  The car in question was built by Vintage and shipped to Dallas. Per the previous owner (2), Lyle Cherry built the motor at the request of the previous owner(1). Look him up. Anybody can build a good/bad motor. I ended up with a bad motor day.

 

A little information - I live 5 miles from Sonoma Raceway in Northern California. You cant throw an empty wine bottle out here without hitting a good car/engine/chassis builder - and then get time on a world class track to check it out. My daily driver is a Cayman S, my track car is a 911 S. I am a Jim Russell/Porsche Masters Graduate. The Speedster is the least of my worries, I just want a reliable driver.  I am not sure what was unclear in my original post.

 

@Gordon - my mechanic over at S-Car-Go would love to talk to you!  Flatheads, seriously??  Come back when you can talk to me about FE 390/427 blocks or 351- 427 strokers, or anything that didnt use wood in the chassis!

 

Mid America gets their motors from JCS. If I wanted to spend a **** load of money on a plastic car, I could go to S-Car-Go, Sonnen, Original Customs or a number of other local folks and have them build me a killer motor.

 

So... back to my initial post, I am looking for "the right mix of performance, reliability, and cost".  Not sure that question has been answered.

 

@Stan - seriously?

 

Brad/LightSpeed/NoSpeed

DannyP,

 

So you have what, a $12,000 JR motor in a plastic car?  If I had 12K to burn JR would be building it for my 911. So yes, you have the worlds most expensive VW stroker motor, and no, thats not what I am looking for. BTW - I never mentioned GEX, and seriously, is disc brakes the biggest problem I have with this car now? 

@Gordon,

 

Dude, go back and read the posts carefully. I know you are and old-timer, but with all respect, if you read my posts, the fuel puddling and thrown rod were different cylinders. Dont link THAT stroker to my desire to have no stroker in the future.

 

I asked for help in determining what the issue was with that and got no viable infomation in response.  I chose to replace the carbs.  Car ran fine, then threw a rod. I think this is a coincidence, not a cause/result.

Nope, got my motor back in 2002, nowhere near that figure. All I'm trying to say is you CAN build a bulletproof stroker motor and when you do you need better brakes.

 

I'll also bet I have about 20K in the car total, plus a repaint. So it wasn't that bad, and I got a Spyder.

Brad - FWIW, my '95 VS originally came with a Mexi-crate 1776cc engine. Ran perfectly for beaucoup miles (35K miles). I eventually put 1835 jugs/pistons  because I had then laying around from an ancient project.

 

Sooooo, that little 1835 with dual Kadrons, 1.25 rockers and A-1 performance side-winder is a peppy cruiser, can cruise at highway speed (70-75mph) all day without a fuss, my daily driver and after logging many miles (approaching 60,000 miles on this engine) all over the West coast and through the Colorado Rockies without a hiccup continues to run flawlessly and reliably.

 

You already have 'fast' cars for your speed fix, a tweaked 1776 or 1835 might be a consideration! 

I will throw in my two cents.  I had a pretty doggie 1835 with baby webers and vw exhaust.  I spent $800 on an A1 Header system and a pair of big dellortos. Now you have an engine that can breath. It is a CMC and when I drive it I do not feel let down after climbing out of my 292HP dynod 993.  Not to say the CMC is as fast but I have 225.50.15 ties in back and it turns them over easily in first and second gear.

I gave you two good choices in the third post.

 

Both can build you a quality engine.

X2 on CB Performance.  I have ~37k on a CB 1915 with plenty of power and it has been solid as a rock - well, the Webers demand attention once in a while.

@Brad- Yeah, seriously.

 

I was under the mistaken impression you were asking so you could learn. I missed the part where you already know everything, or I never would have waded in the shark-tank. It's pretty clear that your intention in asking was so you could share with us "little people" all the massive wisdom and knowledge you've accumulated in your rich existence. So, since none of us are choosing the correct answer-- tell us. What engine should you pick?

 

No less than five guys with a lot of real-world experience tried to back you away from your big/bold (and ignorant) statement concerning stroked ACVWs-- but we're all idiots because you've built some V8 Fords and own a couple of "real" cars. That changes everything! How could we have all been so wrong? Gordon tried to nicely make the point that he knows something about engine building as well-- but he's an irrelevant old-timer because he brought up flatheads... which is SO much different than your (equally irrelevant) chops as a hairy-chested big-block Ford man. Gordon built his own (stroked) ACVW engine, which has 10 years and 35,000 (+/-) mi on it -- it's funny, but I don't recall him ever came on an online board and flaming guys who were trying to help answer what turned out to be a rhetorical question. But he's classy like that.

 

Ron told you to call Chico Performance or CB in the 3rd post. I gave you a recipe for a < 2L engine that will run for 100K mi. I threw out the Subrau because you'll never beat it for power/reliability/money.

 

If none of those are the secret answer you're looking for, why don't you tell us what is? Personally, I'm pretty much done looking for it.

Lightspeed/Nospeed:

 

It seems that perhaps those who had an interest in responding to your post have done so and we haven't lived up to your expectations. Why don't you and your mechanic put your heads together and just come up with your own solution or take this somewhere else for an answer?

 

I'll offer one more potential option. Since you are a fan and owner of "real" Porsches, end your frustration with our "plastic" replicas and acquire a nice 914 and be done with it. 

 

Please include me in your personal list of "oldtimers" along with Gordon. I appreciate being in good company.

 

Again, good luck and good bye!

Brad-

What Stan and Bob said X2. You asked a question (which was loaded with misinformation), and got some very good answers. People, including myself, were just trying to educate you. Learn to respond so you don't come off so arrogant and piss everybody off (because that's what you did) or don't bother asking. On any forum you're going to have to wade through a pile of stuff to find exactly what you want, so I think you should get used to it. If you'd stated that you had other (faster) cars and a stroker was out because of cost, I think the responses at this point would have been different.

 

Btw, I still think what you're looking for is in my first response. Al 

 

PS- I've been playing with these aircooled motors (off and on) for almost 40 years now, so does that make me part of the old farts club too? I'd be proud to be considered in such good company...

Brad - you want power, reliability, non stoked, and assuming air-cooled.  Have you looked at the type 4 motor?

I have a 2.1L stock 71mm cranked motor and it is very strong.  Pm if you want to talk details.

Mango--almost the same as my Type IV which is 74 mm stroker crank, 96mm bore.

 

Seems to be holding together ok.

with the bullet proof ignition i have (mega jolt), i literally just change the oil and add gas. 

 

i have been able to get 19 MPG via my IDF's and that was driving pretty hard

My Type 4's still tickin' too...

Daang, Mango---only 19 mpg?  On my last Carlisle trip of 2,493 I saw 27.1 mpg.That was 75 with some runs of 80.  (Dellorto 40s). You better wax that pretty car so it's slicker!

Approaching 7k miles on this motor,has not missed a beat! Torque AND HP!!! It pulls off idle all the way to 6500 rpm! Cost me about $4500.00,carbs included/dyno tested @ 136hp/5k rpm.Chico built.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdwRa7H-1kA

Hmm.

Sorry, guys, but I'm done with this thread.  I simply will not compete with "Mr. Wonderful".

 

 In his words:

"A little information - I live 5 miles from Sonoma Raceway in Northern California. You cant throw an empty wine bottle out here without hitting a good car/engine/chassis builder - and then get time on a world class track to check it out. My daily driver is a Cayman S, my track car is a 911 S. I am a Jim Russell/Porsche Masters Graduate. The Speedster is the least of my worries, I just want a reliable driver.  I am not sure what was unclear in my original post."

 

wow.  

 

just wow....I'm underwhealmed.  

 

You don't know me.  Maybe you should.  

 

I don't know you.....I think that's a good thing.

 

Let's keep it that way.

 

Good Bye, and good luck.  But then, You don't need any luck, do you?

Lightspeed, you are truly a lucky guy. You have fast cars and fast friends. You seem to know enough about race cars to be able to dispense information to the rest of us. I have to drive 80mph for about 2 hours to find anyone who knows anything about air cooled engines and Gordon is one of 'em. I'm sorry that you pissed everyone off who was trying to help cuz I was just gonna make some popcorn.

My motor is stroked to 88mm.....just passed 22,000 miles.

If you want reliability, you should just stick to a 1641.

Brad - Whew, tough crowd!  Good thing you didn't ask about WHICH replica is best? 

 

Hey Jimbo, good news, I hear the UFC has offered to sponser all future speedster.com get-togethers.

 

Like I've always said, the SOC has great entertainment value....