I see that complete replica metal speedster bodies are now available. It will be interesting to see the first completed one on the road.
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The person doing the voice over had a bowl of Dumbo stating it was a Porsche Speedster, then makes the foolish vin statement .It is known that this manufacture has been ever so careful to omit the P name and since the Speedster name is not a P trademark , they are free to utilize the Speedster designation. IMHO this would not fall into a replica classification but would be best considered as a recreation. I like it and assume that value will depend on a Speedster - VW drivetrain.....
I think this is cool, but it is still a replica. A very expensive one, but a replica.
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Finally, albeit at great expense, someone has found a way to incorporate that one authentic element that's been missing from all of our cars - rust !
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@Lane Anderson posted:I think this is cool, but it is still a replica. A very expensive one, but a replica.
How much of an original, rusted out hulk, has to be attached to that body to be a “restoration”? Some would argue not much besides the VIN. 
I would argue it this way for the 356 crowd. These are not dictionary definitions by any stretch
A replica recreates the look, feel, and function.
A recreation does all of the above but is also constructed the same way as the original.
A real Porsche 356 was only made in Germany(or Austria) BEFORE 1966.
Period. And if anybody puts an actual VIN tag on one, they are guilty of fraud. Just like guys that "create" fake 911RS or RSRs.
I can go with Danny's definitions. that makes this a "recreation," assuming the builder uses only genuine 356 parts and methods. Otherwise it's still a replica.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I am certainly not talking about fraud, I’m speaking of a legitimate restoration. This is a real issue in the restoration of high end automobiles. Where does something cross over from restored to recreated?
That company is a few miles away from where I live. I've been there a couple of times, and they have very nice original 356s, but it's great they are producing spare body parts, and really, a complete body if you want.
Whatever you want to call it, it's a perfect solution for a lot of people.
@LI-Rick posted:I am certainly not talking about fraud, I’m speaking of a legitimate restoration. This is a real issue in the restoration of high end automobiles. Where does something cross over from restored to recreated?
My opinion? When the replaced content exceeds 50%.
@LI-Rick posted:How much of an original, rusted out hulk, has to be attached to that body to be a “restoration”? Some would argue not much besides the VIN.
I recall reading a story about a controversy surrounding a car up for auction. It had been rescued from a lake in Switzerland after some 40-50 years and totally recreated. The original content of the car was something rediculous like the steering box and the seat frames, yet was being represented as the original car.
Given the trend of rusted out “barn finds” showing up on BaT and going to $10-$15K, I have no doubt that one of those VINs will end up on one of these “recreated” bodies.
Many if not most of the existing 550s are substantially "recreations" done around the original frame and VIN, including 550-01, which reportedly had been raced to death, modified with 356C parts and then re-bodied in fiberglass before it was left to rot for several decades. It's interesting how little of this story The Revs Institute tells on its website feature of the car.
Here's what they started the restoration with:
Basically if you start with a real car with a real VIN you can replace the car and call it a restoration. That's why we keep seeing those basket case bits of old Speedsters selling for ridiculous money.
I don't think these are restorations. No significant original parts appear to be going into these cars. What parts are restored? They have meticulously copied the originals and copying with new isn't restoring old, in part or in total.
I would conclude that they are exacting replicas.
Nice work though.
At this point you can buy a complete body metal kit and recreate a 356. Now the challenge is powertrain …. well maybe not but certainly it’s a reissue and the builder’s skills come in question as to how well it will be built. Did I say it is expensive, and will probably still be Frowned upon…. Anything is possible at this point !
Btw I think a new Beck or IM is a much better creation
Weird guy here.
The "steel is real" guys are idiots. The main value of the replacement panels (at least by my reckoning) is to make a speedster out of a considerably less desirable A-body coupe, or to aid the restoration crowd in doing what they do in the right way.
However, in regards to both of those situations, as the "patina" guys all say - "they're only original once". This kind of thinking, taken to it's logical conclusion leaves us with a pretty narrow interpretation of what is "original"
A Wilhoit quality restoration (which I think is beautiful, FWIW) speaks a lot more to the considerable skills of John Wilhoit than it does to the "originality" of the car. A car is only "original" in a completely unrepaired state: once it's repaired (or heaven forbid, modified), it's no longer the work of the elves at Zuffenhausen, it's the work of the guy who did the repair or restoration.
This kind of thinking is why guys go absolutely bonkers over the proverbial garage find, or the guy who drove his car home from the lot in 1958 and sealed it inside a vacuum chamber. It borders on the surreal, the hysterics people go through in pursuit of this kind of preservation.
I wonder to myself if a Wilhoit restoration is any more "original" than a Emory outlaw, or if either of them are all that different from a Beck/VMC/Intermeccanica "replica" (a term I'm really coming to dislike).
i like that new car smell as much as the next guy - but in my mind, a thing is made to be used.
The thing that makes me weird is that I very honestly couldn't care less how original a thing is. I don't get all weak in the knees about original patina or rusty "survivor" cars. I like nice stuff - old ideas made better. I like love hotrods. Modified cars are just better to me.
I'll love Marty's Alfa when it's done undergoing it's restoration - but it's no more original than a body built out of 100% new panels, or a tube-frame car with fiberglass panels. It's no longer a product of the Alfa Romeo factory, it's the product of a high-end restoration shop in Chicago. It'll be far, far better than any "original" car
... just like my car, and just like most of yours.
I can honestly say, I'd get no more warm fuzzies from a car built out of steel panels stamped in Canada than I would from a fiberglass body laid up in Mexico or Indiana, or shot with a chopper-gun in Vancouver. And blasphemy of all blasphemies - I don't really want an "original" or restored Porsche 356. They're ridiculously valuable and fragile and prone to all manner of use-related degradation. If I crashed one, I'd feel like slitting my wrists.
Yeah, I wish what exactly I've got was easier to explain (even to myself) - but I'd rather have something I can bang on than something I need to bubble-wrap and hide away so the next guy will give me more money for it. As I said, I like love hotrods.
I've got the car I want. If somebody else needs panels that rust to feel good about themselves, I care not.
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My take is that this company has just continued to do what they do - supply accurate panels to the restoration trade. They've gradually been filling out their catalog of available panels over the years until it's come to this. With a long enough lever and a garage to stand in, you can now build a whole 356, or something that looks just like one.
I think the company isn't claiming anything one way or the other about what the result is. It's a thing. People will make of it what they will, but it's still just a thing.
What's curious is how passionate some folks get about what that thing is or what it's not - probably because some similar things are worth a lot of money and the perceived value of those things might be somehow threatened by this new thing, perceived value being a delicate and temporal thing.
I am only amused by this. I love the thing in my garage and wouldn't like this new thing any more - like I said, maybe less, because, well... rust.
Nine years ago, I was a little conflicted about the thing in my garage. Was it saying something about me I didn't want it to? But after a while I realized it couldn't do that, as it's just a thing. It is incapable of speech. I stopped worrying about it and just drove it.
Somehow, it's more fun to drive than some more capable sporting machinery I've owned over the years, and that's the main reason I keep it. Occasionally, I think about selling it and getting something else that would be easier to maintain and yet still be fun. But lately, my wife has forbidden me from doing that.
So, maybe that thing in my garage has become more than just a thing after all.
People can be funny about things.
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@Sacto Mitch posted:.
My take is that this company has just continued to do what they do - supply accurate panels to the restoration trade. They've gradually been filling out their catalog of available panels over the years until it's come to this. With a long enough lever and a garage to stand in, you can now build a whole 356, or something that looks just like one.
I think the company isn't claiming anything one way or the other about what the result is. It's a thing. People will make of it what they will, but it's still just a thing.
What's curious is how passionate some folks get about what that thing is or what it's not - probably because some similar things are worth a lot of money and the perceived value of those things might be somehow threatened by this new thing, perceived value being a delicate and temporal thing.
I am only amused by this. I love the thing in my garage and wouldn't like this new thing any more - like I said, maybe less, because, well... rust.
Nine years ago, I was a little conflicted about the thing in my garage. Was it saying something about me I didn't want it to? But after a while I realized it couldn't do that, as it's just a thing. It is incapable of speech. I stopped worrying about it and just drove it.
Somehow, it's more fun to drive than some more capable sporting machinery I've owned over the years, and that's the main reason I keep it. Occasionally, I think about selling it and getting something else that would be easier to maintain and yet still be fun. But lately, my wife has forbidden me from doing that.
So, maybe that thing in my garage has become more than just a thing after all.
People can be funny about things.
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When you try to think about getting something else the thing won't let you it seems
Everything else seems to pale...
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@Sacto Mitch posted:.Nine years ago, I was a little conflicted about the thing in my garage. Was it saying something about me I didn't want it to? But after a while I realized it couldn't do that, as it's just a thing. It is incapable of speech. I stopped worrying about it and just drove it.
That was my experience exactly.
Just drive 'em.
Some great comments here Guys.
To me the whole collector car market is wildly over the top. Cars are meant to be driven, but when value is such that a car is admired in the garage, started occasionally so the exhaust note impresses others and the only time it actually moves is to go across the driveway to the transport, onto a show field or parking lot and then back to the garage via transport, back to a collection, never to feel the squeal of a tire or the G's of a driver trying to balance the forces at work negotiating the curves of a mountain pass with the wind in his/her hair again is nothing short of sacrilegious.
While it's great that there's enough interest to preserve so many cars' places in history, too many people have more money than brains and just because they are able to possess something (and in extreme cases house it in a massive collection so it may never see the light of day again) "so we can see the progression of technology", if they never come out on the road what's the point?
As to the argument whether a repaired or even totally rebuilt car still has value or once damaged it's no longer as special as a totally original specimen- a dirty but pristine barn or garage find with all factory parts still intact is certainly exciting, but somehow I have just as much (or maybe even just a little more) respect for a car that's had a multitude of owners and people have learned driving skills/experienced the joy of motoring in it, even when that has meant repairs (and even the occasional bit of rebuilding when the learning curve had a bit of a blip) along the way. Not it's first paint job- no sweat! Got parked because of an accident (race or street damage doesn't really matter) and someone cared enough to bring it back to be enjoyed again- as you run your hand over the curve of a fender you know it's done it's job and hey, this baby's been places! Start 'er up and go for a burn...
If attaching a vin number to a brand new shell and then outfitting it with all the original pieces from that vin excites you, so be it. It's above my pay grade to decide where it fits in this Great Debate. All I can hope for is that it be driven so the person gets what the excitement is all about.
This is only the opinion of the author and if you in any way agree with me, great- if you don't, you're all just a bunch of Poopieheads anyway. Have a great day everybody!!!
Amen, Brother ALB!!
We're on a first name basis, Lane- Brother Al will be fine...
Perfect, Al.
Personally, unless you’re buying, selling, or owning, I don’t know what a difference it makes. I think it’s great such a product is available. Same with complete MGB, Austin Healey, and other bodies available through Moss.
If I were twenty years younger, and had an unlimited budget, I think it would be a fun project to build a steel Speedster. Coat it with an anti-corrosion layer like Marty is doing with his Alfa, source the bits and pieces from wherever. (I personally know of a complete set of 356 brakes and several 356/912 engines/trans.)
Would I represent it as a “real” Speedster? No. Of course not. But I think it would be a heck of an accomplishment to build one.
I think it is nice to see "couldn't care less" used correctly instead of the more common but incorrect "could care less".
@DannyP posted:My opinion? When the replaced content exceeds 50%.
Tell this to the '42 Ford people who have a fiberglass shell over modern chassis and drive train and still call it a '42 Ford
It is also nice to see David Stroud show up, even if it is just to like a reply.
@Michael McKelvey posted:It is also nice to see David Stroud show up, even if it is just to like a reply.
Agreed. Good to know you're out there, David.
Oh, David is still around. Had an email chat with him recently. Doing okay, working on another airplane.
And what about venturing South in May? Anyone? Beuller?
@Bob: IM S6, @David Stroud IM Roadster D, @IaM-Ray
How is it that all three of y'all have IM in your screen name?
Never noticed .
Ka-ching, ka-ching....$$$$$$
@Larry Scislowicz posted:Ka-ching, ka-ching....$$$$$$
Yes Steel replicas are
I guess we're all just choosy as to what we drive around in...
We might as well buy Canadian, too.
I get Canadian bacon on my pizza, whats the difference:}
We get Canadian bacon on our pizzas too. In fact, all bacon we eat up here is Canadian.
Yours isn't. That's just the name they give in the U.S. to back bacon.
https://spoonuniversity.com/li...at-is-canadian-bacon
Enjoy.
Back Bacon doesn't even taste like our Bacon - It tastes more like Ham 'cuz it's cut from a different part of the pig. It's like a lot of other Canadian stuff that's kept on your side of the border. Canadian Bacon is like this:
@Gordon Nichols posted:Back Bacon doesn't even taste like our Bacon - It tastes more like Ham 'cuz it's cut from a different part of the pig. It's like a lot of other Canadian stuff that's kept on your side of the border.
We keep it on our side of the border because we know how good it is.
speaking of Canadian Whiskey, never developed a hankering for it,, more of a Bourbon guy